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What do you think about this proposed trade?

  • I think it works great for both teams.

    Votes: 1 12.5%
  • The Pacers are getting Andre Miller too easily.

    Votes: 2 25.0%
  • No way would the Pacers take on Ilgauskus' huge contract.

    Votes: 5 62.5%

  • Total voters
    8
1 - 5 of 5 Posts

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Discussion Starter #1
Here's the deal. The Cavs are obviously interested in dumping payroll and starting all over again. The Clips want Andre Miller (or Baron Davis), but they're balking--probably because Donald Sterling is already freaking out about maxing out the guys he already has, the idea of adding ANOTHER max-out guy probably scares the hell out of him. So the Cavs need to explore other options.

The Pacers have quantity but not quality--that's their problem. Quality wins in this league, not quantity (see the Lakers for details). However, the Pacers are unwilling to put together a particularly good package for the Cavs. SO, in order to acquire The Great Andre Miller, the Pacers are going to have to help Cleveland out in another way--they're going to have to take on some of Cleveland's unwanted payroll. Here's the proposed deal:

Andre Miller, Zydrunas Ilgauskus, Lamond Murray, and Bimbo Coles to the Pacers

Jonathan Bender, Ron Artest, Kenny Anderson (acquired from the Celtics for Jamaal Tinsley, Austin Croshere, and Primoz Brezec), Ron Mercer, and next year's #1 pick (unconditional?) to the Cavs

Let's take a look at the salaries, THEN you'll understand why the Cavs would be willing to do this.

Andre Miller--$2.5 mil next season, will be maxed out (or close to it) after that by the Pacers

Zydrunas Ilgauskus--$12.4 mil in 2002-03, $13.5 mil in 2003-04, $14.6 mil in 2004-05 (obviously he's the key to the deal for Cleveland!)

Lamond Murray--$4.1 mil in 2002-03, $4.5 mil in 2003-04, $4.9 mil in 2004-05, $5.3 mil in 2005-06

Bimbo Coles--$2.7 mil in 2002-03, $2.9 mil in 2003-04

Jonathan Bender--$3.2 mil in 2002-03, $4.3 mil qualifying offer in 2003-04, then he'll be re-signed (presumably, since he's the best prospect Cleveland will be getting in this deal)

Ron Artest--$1.9 mil in 2002-03, $2.7 mil qualifying offer in 2003-04, then time to give him an extension

Kenny Anderson--$9.2 mil (!) in 2002-03, but THEN he's a free agent, the Cavs can let him go, freeing up quite a bit of cap room and saving them a ton of money

Ron Mercer--$7.4 mil (!) in 2002-03, $8.0 mil in 2003-04, but then HE'S a free agent; not a great salary here, but certainly preferable to the salaries of Ilgauskus and Murray, don't you think?

The Cavs, as you can see, get to unload a TON of unwanted salaries. Keep in mind that several contracts expire next season--Tyrone Hill ($6.6 mil next year), Nick Anderson ($6.1 mil next year), and Bryant Stith ($2.0 mil next year)--so this team will be able to offer quite a bit of money to one or more players in the fantastic 2003 free agent class. Here is their roster for next season:

PG Dajuan Wagner--Kenny Anderson--Bryant Stith
SG Ricky Davis (re-signed)--Ron Mercer--Nick Anderson
SF Ron Artest--Jonathan Bender
PF Jumaine Jones--Tyrone Hill--Carlos Boozer
C Chris Mihm--DaSagana Diop

Is this a terrible team or WHAT? Dear LORD do they SUCK! Will they finish with the worst record in the Eastern Conference? ABSOLUTELY! Will they be WAAAAAAY under the cap after next season? ABSOLUTELY! Will they have as good a shot as anybody at LeBron James? ABSOLUTELY (although keep in mind that, even if they go 0-82, they only have a 25% shot at James)! The team will get a chance to see what all the kiddies (Wagner, Davis, Artest, Bender, Jones, Boozer, Mihm, and Diop--that's EIGHT kiddies, EIGHT) can do next season and go from there. And since Ron Mercer has TWO years left on his deal, he'll probably get plenty of time, too (unfortunately). The team would GLADLY deal Hill and Anderson to teams in need of quick fix veteran help, but ONLY if Cleveland gets cheap young players OR draft picks in return.

Keep in mind, people, that this is more of a FINANCIAL decision than it is a BASKETBALL decision. But it COULD work from the BASKETBALL standpoint, too, if a few of these kiddies (especially Bender!) turn out to be keepers. AND, if the Cavs win the Lebron James sweepstakes next June--and the worse the team is next season, the better those chances are, obviously--well, Cavs fans will forget about Andre Miller INSTANTLY! Believe it!

What about from the Pacers' perspective? Well, like I said, quality wins in this league, not quantity. Take a look at the Pacers for next season:

PG Andre Miller--Jamison Brewer--Bimbo Coles
SG Reggie Miller--Fred Jones
SF Al Harrington--Lamond Murray
PF Jermaine O'Neal--Jeff Foster--Gregor ****a
C Brad Miller--Zydrunas Ilgauskus

The team's payroll will be pretty big in a couple of years, since O'Neal will need to be maxed out, and both Millers are free agents after next season, too (re-signing all three guys--or even just two of these guys--will be more of a challenge than Pacers fans seem to realize, but that's another topic, and I'm trying to be optimistic here). But the team has TWO young stars to build around for the next ten years (Andre Miller and Jermaine O'Neal, obviously), while the supporting cast (for the next couple of seasons, anyway) will be a nice blend of veterans (Reggie, Brad, Ilgauskus, and Murray) and youth (Harrington, Foster, Jones, Brewer). If Ilgauskus stays healthy, well, GREAT, the team has a monster frontcourt, especially for an Eastern Conference team; if not, oh well, at least the team acquired Andre!

The key here is Andre Miller. There are only a handful of STARS--and I mean STARS, I don't use that word loosely like everybody else does around here--in this league, and Miller and O'Neal are two of them. The key to winning in this league SEEMS to be getting two STARS and surrounding them with role players. The Pacers CURRENTLY have only ONE star, and those idiots who think that an Al Harrington or a Jonathan Bender will turn into a STAR are, well, IDIOTS. The Pacers need to add another STAR, and, since they can't do it via free agency, they'll have to do it via a trade. And not many teams can offer up the kind of cheap young talent that Indiana can.

Of course, this team is going nowhere as long as Isiah is the coach. Hopefully he'll get fired ASAP next season.
 

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I dont like this trade for the Pacers. The Pacers have the players now to become a contender. I think Indiana should just keep the team like it is and they will develop into one of the NBAs elite years in 3 years or less. Also, Pacers have quality and quantity, I've even seen some experts say they have too much talent (dont know how you can have too much, except for maybe the money issues and dividing minutes. I think the Pacers will be the Bad Boys of the new millinium if they keep the team together.
PACERS = BAD BOYS 2k
YAY!
 

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Discussion Starter #3
What? You think the Pacers are giving up too much here for ANDRE MILLER?

Like I said, quality wins in this league, not quantity. The Pacers have the quantity but not the quality. I mean, who is this team's #2 player two years from now (behind Jermaine O'Neal, assuming O'Neal re-signs next July, which is not a sure thing)? Jamaal Tinsley (who is as good as gone to the Celtics within the next few days anyway)? Al Harrington? Jonathan Bender? Ron Artest? Fred Jones? Brad Miller? Do you NOT KNOW that NONE of these guys will ever be a STAR? All are either solid players or will eventually become solid players, but not one of them is a STAR. I know that most people throw the term "star" around pretty loosely, but I don't.

What wins in the NBA--and I mean what REALLY wins--is quality. In other words, TWO STARS. The Lakers have Shaq and Kobe, so there you go. The Bulls had MJ and Pippen. The Celtics had Bird and McHale. The Lakers had Magic and Kareem. These guys are all STARS, Hall of Famers, true STARS. I suppose you could say that the Spurs had Duncan and Robinson, but I think that was an off year in the league, that Spurs team was relatively weak, and I'm not sure that Robinson could still be considered a STAR at that point. And, as much as I loved those Pistons championship teams, well, they were relatively weak, too, as they were fortunate enough to be around as the Lakers and Celtics were declining and before the Bulls came of age. So the Pistons and Spurs are examples of championship teams that had only ONE star--but they are exceptions.

The Pacers need another STAR, and I mean STAR, not Jonathan Bender or Al Harrington! When you can get a guy like Andre Miller for a bunch of role players, well, YOU DO IT!

However, on second thought, I don't think the Pacers really have to throw in that future #1 pick, simply because, well, I don't think the Cavs will get a better offer than this Pacers offer. So make it:

Miller, Ilgauskus, Murray and Bimbo to the Pacers

Bender, Artest, Mercer, and Kenny Anderson to the Cavs

ALSO! I took a look at the rosters and payrolls for the other 27 teams, and I was able to find ONE team who would be interested in acquiring Kenny Anderson (from Cleveland): The Orlando Magic, who would like to add a point guard for next season BUT who do not want to screw up their chances of making a run for either Tim Duncan or Jermaine O'Neal next offseason. Here's what the Magic could offer for Anderson:

Jud Buechler, Horace Grant, Don Reid, and Sacramento's #1 pick in 2003

Buechler, Grant, and Reid are all free agents after NEXT season, so that works for Cleveland. None of these guys really figure to play for Orlando much next season, anyway. Sacramento's #1 pick will obviously be one of the last 2-3 picks in the first round, but hell, you never know! And at least they get SOMETHING for Kenny Anderson, who has a LITTLE value for SOME team next year, right? Keep in mind that Anderson is a free agent, too, so Orlando can opt to not re-sign him (they probably WON'T re-sign him, but you never know). And Buechler, Grant, and Reid combined make about $900,000ish less than does Anderson next year, and make no mistake, the Cavs are PINCHING PENNIES, $900,000 is a lot of money when you're pinching pennies! And again, you never know, that Sacramento #1 pick next year is better than nothing, right?

As for Tyrone Hill--who the Cavs would also probably like to get SOMETHING in return for, since they're OBVIOUSLY not going to re-sign him after next season--the one team who might actually be interested is: The Chicago Bulls, who would like to add a veteran big man or two to help show Tyson Chandler and Eddy Curry the ropes (not to mention somebody who could give the team a fairly productive 20 minutes a game!). Here's what the Bulls could offer for Tyrone Hill:

Fred Hoiberg, Michael Ruffin, and Roger Mason

Both Hoiberg and Ruffin are free agents after next season, and ALSO won't be re-signed by the Cavs (DUH!), while Roger Mason gives the team a mildly interesting prospect (as well as a backup point guard, although I doubt this guy will be much of an NBA point guard, especially NEXT season; and, Bulls fans, do NOT tell me that Roger Mason "is going to be a good player," because he probably WON'T be a good player, or even a decent player, while Hill should give this team some really valuable minutes next season). Not to mention that the Cavs will save themselves about $4 mil next season (the Bulls are about $6 mi under the cap, so they can afford to take on an additional $4 mil in Hill). Hill would be a nice player for the Bulls next season, he'd be EXACTLY the kind of player (and at EXACTLY the right price) Jerry Krause is looking to add, but, in Cleveland, he was just taking minutes away from the kiddies.

The Cavs, then, next season, will be:

PG Dajuan Wagner--Roger Mason
SG Ricky Davis (re-signed)--Ron Mercer
SF Ron Artest--Jonathan Bender
PF Jumaine Jones--Carlos Boozer
C Chris Mihm--DaSagana Diop

That's ten players there--hopefully a FEW of them will be worth keeping, right? And AGAIN, make no mistake, this team will be GODAWFUL next season, the worst team in the East HANDS DOWN. So, Cavs fans, do NOT write something REALLY, REALLY DUMB like "Hey, I like that team, I think they could really surprise some people"--DON'T DO IT! This team WILL SUCK SUCK SUCK!

Other guys on the roster, who don't figure to play much, either because they'll take minutes away from the kiddies who are auditioning OR because they SUCK (and who BY NO MEANS will be re-signed after next season, not a single stinking one of them): Horace Grant, Don Reid, Bryant Stith, Fred Hoiberg, Michael Ruffin, Jud Buechler, and Nick Anderson. Every single one of these dudes is a free agent after next season, so the total amount of their salaries (and the amount that will be freed up in cap room for next season's free agent shopping spree) is: $18.1 mil. That's a lot of money!

Of course, if the Cavs don't win the Lebron James sweepstakes--and, chances are, they won't--I don't know about the future of this team, really. I think this (the Andre Miller trade) is a terrible, terrible trade for the Cavs--but, if the team MUST trade Miller, this trade may be the best they can do, because I don't think the Clips are going to cooperate.

ONE FINAL NOTE: I find it pretty hilarious that ANYBODY thinks that the Pacers "are giving up too much" here, that the Pacers "already have enough talent to build a dynasty." WHAT? How dumb! AGAIN--who is this team's #2 guy in two years (i.e., in the post-Reggie era)? Re-read that first paragraph--again, not a single one of these players will be a STAR--maybe a few of them will be pretty good, but not a single one of them will be a STAR! And pretty good doesn't win in this league--STARS win in this league! The worst team in the NBA has SEVERAL "pretty good" players--what makes the great teams GREAT is the presence of STARS, and not just ONE star! The Pacers need to go get another STAR, and I'm sitting here telling you that Andre Miller is that guy! I mean, come ON, Jonathan Bender (no idea how to play basketball), Ron Artest (a role player and a headcase), Ron Mercer (getting almost $8 mil/yr to score and THAT'S IT, he brings absolutely nothing else to the table, and he has zero upside), and Kenny Anderson (one of the worst starting point guards in the league for the past SEVERAL seasons)--you're trading these four guys for ANDRE MILLER! And somebody is telling me that they SHOULDN'T do it? WHAT? Take another look at the Pacers roster above for next season--you're telling me that that team isn't better than this past season's team? A LOT better? Here it is again:

PG Andre Miller (36 minutes/game)--Bimbo Coles (6 minutes/game)--Jamison Brewer (6 minutes/game)

SG Reggie Miller (30 minutes/game)--Fred Jones (12 minutes/game)

SF Al Harrington (32 minutes/game)--Lamond Murray (22 minutes/game)

PF Jermaine O'Neal (36 minutes/game)--Jeff Foster (18 minutes/game)--Gregor Fu*ka (* = "c"; 0 minutes/game)

C Brad Miller (30 minutes/game)--Zydrunas Ilgauskus (12 minutes/game)

Ilgauskus won't be happy with only 12 minutes a game, but who cares? Besides, Jeff Foster has paid his dues for this team, and he really gets after it--you can't take minutes away from him. Plus, limiting Ilgauskus' minutes should keep him fresh for the postseason--if the Pacers are ever lucky enough to make it to the NBA Finals again, they'll need Ilgauskus to be ready to go against a Shaq or a Tim Duncan. A Brad Miller/Ilgauskus two-headed monster should really annoy the hell out of Shaq, don't you think?
Reggie will ALSO be much more effective in the postseason (as if he isn't effective enough in the postseason already!) by cutting back on HIS minutes somewhat, plus the team can groom Fred Jones a little (he WAS the #14 pick in the draft, after all, that's pretty high) AND give Murray some minutes at the SG spot. Harrington has earned the right to play 32 minutes/game--he's getting paid too much money to not play these kinds of minutes. And maybe you give Brewer 12 minutes/game and Bimbo 0 minutes/game, I don't know, it depends on how ready Brewer is to play. I do know the Pacers actually like this kid. Gregor Fu*ka figures to be the 12th man, and 12th men don't play in the NBA.

And, BY THE WAY: If the Pacers make this deal, well, they're in a tough spot in a way, because they're going to have to max out (or come close to maxing out) both Andre Miller and O'Neal. Which means that the team may not be able to re-sign the two OTHER Millers (three Millers!), Reggie and Brad, without entering the dreaded luxury tax territory. Reggie may have to agree to a significant paycut in order to stay. And the Pacers may have to just let Brad walk, if his market value is higher than $5 mil/yr (which it probably WILL be). Oh well, it doesn't matter as much as you THINK it does, because, ONCE AGAIN, quality wins in this league, not quantity. Andre and Jermaine are the two guys in Indiana for the long haul--if they win a championship in 3 years, it will be because of Andre and Jermaine, it won't have anything to do with whether or not the team was able to re-sign Reggie and/or Brad in the 2003 offseason, trust me!

Like I've said before, all this team needs to do is fire Isiah's sorry a$$ and go hire a REAL coach! How about Jeff Van Gundy? JEFF VAN GUNDY! Do it! WHY DOESN'T SOMEBODY HIRE JEFF VAN GUNDY ALREADY?
 

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Originally posted by robyg
...

Andre Miller, Zydrunas Ilgauskus, Lamond Murray, and Bimbo Coles to the Pacers

Jonathan Bender, Ron Artest, Kenny Anderson (acquired from the Celtics for Jamaal Tinsley, Austin Croshere, and Primoz Brezec), Ron Mercer, and next year's #1 pick (unconditional?) to the Cavs

Let's take a look at the salaries, THEN you'll understand why the Cavs would be willing to do this.

Andre Miller--$2.5 mil next season, will be maxed out (or close to it) after that by the Pacers

Zydrunas Ilgauskus--$12.4 mil in 2002-03, $13.5 mil in 2003-04, $14.6 mil in 2004-05 (obviously he's the key to the deal for Cleveland!)
...
The thing that the Pacers definitly don't want is Ilgauskus contract alongside a max to Miller (A.) (they'll have three millers then) and a max to O'Neal.
 
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