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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
We may have reached the point where Rasheed Wallace is an afterthought, a guy you don't really count on for anything. With last night's second quarter ejection he has proven once again how unreliable and immature he is. I ask you Wallace supporters one simple question: Is this a guy you want on the team when we are in a crucial playoff game? Is this a guy you think you can count on when the pressure cooker is really steaming?

The Blazers proved last night that they can win without Wallace. And Zach Randolph (19 points, 11 rebounds) once again proved that he doesn't need Wallace on the court to play well. Those are both good things. Perhaps this is the final nail in the coffin, and Nash will see the wisdom once and for all in shipping this loser out of town.

Poor Maurice Cheeks, still trying to be the diplomat, still trying to make us think Wallace is an adult that he can reason with: "We will talk about it (today)," Cheeks said. "I will tell him that we need him on the floor, particularly when we are trying to right ourselves for a run at the playoffs."

Don't waste your breath, Mo. Wallace has been in the league 8 years. If he doesn't know by now how important it is to stay in the game, then he never will.

I say we take the Van Excel/Dampier trade, or a better one if it comes along. It would make the rest of this season a little more interesting, and even if we don't keep the players we get back for Wallace, we might be able to use them as trade bait for another deal in the future. Whatever we do, let's get rid of Wallace once and for all. His act is stale beyond belief.
 

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Yes, I think Sheed is a guy we want in the playoffs...if we make it. Portland is a very good team when Sheed plays like he has been lately. That was very apparent in the first half against the Suns. I was disappointed in Sheed getting ejected but you have to admit, the second T was very quick. The ref needs to have thicker skin and Sheed needs to be smarter than that.

Portland barely held out with a win. I don't think it was a coincidence Portland let the Suns back in without Sheed. I'm not sure what to do with Sheed. He is a hell of a player when he wants to be and stays in the game but crap like this just doesn't cut it either. Portland should only deal him for quality in return and most of the deals I've seen are for older players and less quality.
 

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Rasheed getting thrown out was dumb, no doubt, but I disagree with the assertion that the Blazers "proved last night that they can win without Wallace".

The Blazers were up by 20 when Rasheed was ejected.... so it went down to 18 directly because of Marion's free throws from those T's.

The rest of the Blazers hang on to win, but without that 18 point cushion (of which Rasheed Wallace was as responsible as anyone... he was having a very nice game with 3 assists and 8 points in his 12 minutes, along with a block and a steal and his normal solid defense) they probably would have lost.

Would it have been Rasheed's fault if they'd lost for being ejected? A lot of it, sure, but that doesn't mean that the team proved last night that they can win without Wallace.

(Alternatively, though, what's the value of the Blazers proving last night that they can win without Wallace... that they aren't the worst team in the West? It's not like we were in Sacramento or something.)

The fact is that Portland won, and whether it was in spite of Rasheed getting ejected or because of it, it doesn't really matter.

Ed O.
 

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we squander most of a twenty point lead (against the Suns no less) after Sheed leaves the game and you view that as proof that we don't need Wallace?

uh, ok. that's one way of looking at it. :rolleyes:
 

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Originally posted by <b>Talkhard</b>!
With last night's second quarter ejection he has proven once again how unreliable and immature he is. Perhaps this is the final nail in the coffin, and Nash will see the wisdom once and for all in shipping this loser out of town. Mo. Wallace has been in the league 8 years. If he doesn't know by now how important it is to stay in the game, then he never will. His act is stale beyond belief.
Talkhard, you seem to be saying that Rasheed has done this for his entire eight year career and can't stop. I have a question for you, when was the last time Rasheed was thrown out of a game before last night?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
"we squander most of a twenty point lead (against the Suns no less) after Sheed leaves the game and you view that as proof that we don't need Wallace?"
We've squandered lots of leads with Wallace in the game. It's been happening all season, and Wallace has been on the court almost every time. He is famous for fading in the fourth quarter. Not coincidentally, that's when our leads are usually squandered.

Besides, we didn't have Patterson last night, either. With his energy on the floor, we might not have lost that big lead.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
"Talkhard, you seem to be saying that Rasheed has done this for his entire eight year career and can't stop. I have a question for you, when was the last time Rasheed was thrown out of a game before last night?"
By "disappearing" I mean more than getting ejected. I'm referring to the fact that he often fades in the fourth quarter (he's scored zero points in the 4th several times this year), or is otherwise unreliable. Getting suspended for 7 games last year was also a "disappearing" act.
 

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Originally posted by <b>Talkhard</b>!

The Blazers proved last night that they can win without Wallace.
Hmmmm....

Rasheed in as a starter, Portland outscores Phoenix by 12
Rasheed taken out, Portland outscores Phoenix by 1
Rasheed put back in, Portland outscores Phoenix by 7
Rasheed gets two technicals, Phoenix outscores Portland by 16

I'd rethink that statement if I were you.

If you had said, "The Blazers proved last night that they can win without Wallace as long as the other team spots them a 20 point lead," I would agree wholeheartedly with you.
 

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Re: Re: Another disappearing act for Wallace

Originally posted by <b>So Cal Blazer Fan</b>!



If you had said, "The Blazers proved last night that they can win without Wallace as long as the other team spots them a 20 point lead," I would agree wholeheartedly with you.
:laugh:

Thanks SOcal-I needed that! :D
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
"Rasheed in as a starter, Portland outscores Phoenix by 12
Rasheed taken out, Portland outscores Phoenix by 1
Rasheed put back in, Portland outscores Phoenix by 7
Rasheed gets two technicals, Phoenix outscores Portland by 16

I'd rethink that statement if I were you."
It's pretty simple, SCBF. Portland won the game. I didn't say Wallace's absence had no effect--all I said was that the Blazers won. And they did it on another team's court, without Ruben Patterson and with DA having a terrible night. They proved to me that they can win without Wallace. Period.

You also left out the statistics from the second half, when Wallace wasn't even on the court. Yet (miraculously!) Portland managed to win anyway.

You can talk about ebbs and flows all you want, but I could come back with plenty of examples when Wallace was in a game and the other team came back anyway. Besides, you're missing the bigger picture. If and when we get someone in return for Wallace, that player may help us just as much--or more! The point is, Rasheed Wallace is not such a crucial player that he can't be replaced with someone who has a better work ethic, a better character, and better leadership qualities.
 

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Originally posted by <b>Talkhard</b>!

The point is, Rasheed Wallace is not such a crucial player that he can't be replaced with someone who has a better work ethic, a better character, and better leadership qualities.
Assuming the replacement can actually play basketball at a high level, your point really lacks meaning.

ANY player on the Blazers, and almost every player in the NBA, can be replaced successfully. Pointing out that Rasheed Wallace can be replaced by a nicer guy seems a waste of time... or am I missing the posts where people are saying that Rasheed is irreplaceable by anyone who works harder or has better character than he does?

Ed O.
 

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First time in long time

And you come right out of the woodwork. Rasheed has done a good job keeping out of trouble for the most part on the court over the last season and this season, yet he gets in trouble once, and here ya are, ready to steam roll him out of town. The refs in last nights game were bad, to say the least, it was amazing Portland was able to get the victory with how bad it was in stretches of the game. Part of the reason they were able to was because of Wallace's play in the first half before the ejection.

If you really want to see how bad this team can be, go ahead and get rid of Wallace. We wil see how happy of a camper you are when Portland goes 11 and 71 without him on the floor.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
"Assuming the replacement can actually play basketball at a high level, your point really lacks meaning.

ANY player on the Blazers, and almost every player in the NBA, can be replaced successfully. Pointing out that Rasheed Wallace can be replaced by a nicer guy seems a waste of time... or am I missing the posts where people are saying that Rasheed is irreplaceable by anyone who works harder or has better character than he does?"
My argument is pretty simple, Ed, but you have muddied it up, of course. Here's what it boils down to:

Some people feel Wallace is so valuable (i.e. such a rare NBA commodity) that Portland would be dealt a serious blow by losing him. They overlook his character flaws, lack of discipline, lack of leadership, etc. because they feel he is just an overwhelming talent that cannot be easily replaced. If you have been following this board for awhile, you know what I am talking about.

The other group of people (and I am one of them) feel that Wallace's character flaws, lack of leadership, or drive, or discipline, etc. actually outweigh what he brings to the team in sheer talent (which is considerable). We think that the team might even be better without him, and that there are other players with similar or equal talent that would be a better fit for our team. The fact that Portland can win a game on another team's court, without even having Wallace in the second half, helps to support our point.
 

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I don't really feel that last nights game was a good barometer. The officiating was horrendous. Look at the fould shot numbers.
Portland shot 11 out of 14 FT's
Phoenix shot 29 out of 36 Ft's

That's an 18 point difference right there.

Phoienix was called for 14 fouls
Portland was called for 24 fouls

I'm not saying Sheed being out doesn't matter, because it does. But the officiating IMO was horrendously lopsided.
 

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This Thread Is pointless its another way for Talkhard to Dawg rasheed for no reason, for one he was thrown out last night for nothing, yes he deserved the first T but the Second was just the refs power trip. Second to sit here and say Rasheed fades in fourth wasnt this you point a couple threads ago and people brought to your attention thats only happened in 9 games also u are not counting what type of D he brings dont base everything on Scoring because Sheed is the best Defender we have! Also they said its been over a year since sheed has been thrown out get over it he HAS CHANGED rememeber HE IS HUMAN not superhuman people do make mistakes some more than others BUT PEOPLE CHANGE ACCEPT IT.
 

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Originally posted by <b>Talkhard</b>!

The other group of people (and I am one of them) feel that Wallace's character flaws, lack of leadership, or drive, or discipline, etc. actually outweigh what he brings to the team in sheer talent (which is considerable).
I know that you're one of those people, but you're one of the FEW people, because the absence of leadership, or drive, or discipline, doesn't undermine the actual PRODUCTION that Rasheed brings to the team.

It almost certainly undermines what he's capable of, but that's an entirely different matter than that what he already brings is not a positive.

Let's say a guy has $1m in his mattress. He's a wealthy man. He would be MORE wealthy if he kept his money in a safe place where it would draw interest... but he's still wealthy.

Similarly, Rasheed Wallace does some things well on the court: he defends well, he is a guy capable of stretching a defense, he can take smaller players onto the block and score, he plays all of the front court positions.

He COULD be even better if he worked harder in the weight room, or if he provided more leadership, or if he spoke the Queen's English to Jason Quick for proper interviews following each practice and game.

The mere fact that he could be more might be frustrating but it's not something that cancels his positive contributions.

We think that the team might even be better without him, and that there are other players with similar or equal talent that would be a better fit for our team.
This MIGHT be true... but why would a team trade us a similar or equal talent for Rasheed, considering his baggage? And what player would fit in better than Rasheed on the court... he can play the 3, 4, or 5, allows ZR to play the weakest opponent.

There MIGHT be a guy out there that would be better for the team, but the odds are that if Rasheed is moved (as quickly as you've been clamoring for some time) then it will be for a lesser player and/or a worse contract... neither of which will make Portland a better team.

The fact that Portland can win a game on another team's court, without even having Wallace in the second half, helps to support our point.
No, it doesn't. As I (and others) have pointed out, Rasheed's departure came with an 18 point lead (following the foul shots from his 2 technicals). That lead had been built exclusively when Rasheed was on the floor. It was almost entirely lost after he was ejected.

Your response to this counter argument? It seems to be (a) well, Portland WON, so they proved that they can win without Rasheed, and (b) well, Portland's lost leads WITH Rasheed, so the mere fact that they almost lost without him doesn't matter.

Point (b) is without merit. Since you are claiming that the events of last night supports your point, your deflection doesn't mitigate the fact that Rasheed's absence actually hurt the team.

Point (a) is worthless, as well, in my opinion, because it's such a simplistic analysis that it ignores the very factors (how the team did with and without Rasheed) that you claim to be true (the team can do fine without Rasheed).

In short: I understand you hate Rasheed. I think we all do. The game last night, though, while evidence that Rasheed still has a temper and still needs to grow as a person on the floor to be as good as he can possibly be, actually shows that the team is significantly better with Rasheed on the floor, so it runs counter to your seeming "dump Rasheed now at any cost" position.

Ed O.
 

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Was Sheed hooked? Yes! Should it have been called on Amare? Yep! Was Sheed right? You bet!

Is our team sitting a few under 500 going into the All Star break? Yep!! Do we need some wins? You Bet!


Sheed has to be right and that is at all costs, the team included! Mr. Wallace needs to learn that being right means nothing if your team losses or struggles without you. Right then makes you very wrong!
 

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Originally posted by <b>Talkhard</b>!

I ask you Wallace supporters one simple question: Is this a guy you want on the team when we are in a crucial playoff game? Is this a guy you think you can count on when the pressure cooker is really steaming?
Am I a "Wallace supporter"? I'll answer anyway. Yes, I want him on the team in a crucial playoff game, unless we can replace him with Duncan or someone like that.

Wallace being ejected is a pretty damn rare circumstance. I'd be more worried about having Mo Cheeks on the team than Wallace. Wallace is one of the only players on the team that can dominate a game when he's going well.

The Blazers proved last night that they can win without Wallace.
No, as others pointed out, without Wallace, the Blazers got slapped around by one of the worst teams in the league. That's a glowing tribute to Wallace.

His act is stale beyond belief.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. -Winston Churchill
 
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