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it's obvious that our front court is woefully undersized on defense and predictable on offense. if allan's gimpy and doesn't need to be respected there's no zonebusting, nothing easy down low where's there's zero post game and we will continue to lose, esp. to western teams with sensation PFs and/or Cs. Isiah, get me a draft pick in this year's lottery and take perovic or seung and pray. i still like what Isiah Lord has done but it ain't enough to even be sure of the 8th seed. yes, more jelling could happen, but more fluid could also appear in mr. houston's knees. the main difference between Layden's team and Isiah's is simply short- and long-term hope for Ws, not Ws themselves
 

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I think Doleac plays good post D and blocks a few shots, I like him. He is a good frontcourt reserve. We need an upgrade from Harrington and a better starting PF/C than Mutombo and Kurt Thomas. We need a young, athletic, strong tough big man. Nene woulda been nice!! Tough loss, we could have won this game with a few more buckets from Penny or someone else that could have stepped up. Spurs had a ton of turnovers and we still lost. we need KVH and Houston to get healthy quickly!!
 

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*Fails to see the difference between the Layden Knicks and the Isiah Knicks*

The reason you fail to see it is because laydens Knicks were so badly overpaid and under talented that we are stuck with the garbage he brought in..

Dont you get it???????????Its not complicated

Weatherspoon,Eisly,Anderson,the RIDICULOUS contract of Houston,the trade for Dyss???....

WAKE UP dude,layden killed us with those contracts..No GM wants our garbage...Isiah is stuck with it....Thats why there is no difference..

News flash....LAYDEN SUKKED..he is now FIRED.....The bad news is he couldnt take the garbage out with him....
 

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Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
*Fails to see the difference between the Layden Knicks and the Isiah Knicks*
Duh. This basically is Layden's team, only one starter has been changed. Layden was given four years to craft this gem. Even Jerry West couldn't save it in a month, or a year, or a few.

Only Rashidi would gloat when the Knicks, with their two highest scorers injured, don't beat the reigning champs. More "fair and balanced" propoganda from Fox, er, Rashidi...
 

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Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
how did van horn get hurt...i didnt see that part. and We need houston down the stretch. And less of michael doleac. He can hit a J,but he does nothing else and thats not a good thing.

and NO MOOCHIE NORRIS. i hate him.

Told you guys moochie was nothing.



Anyway, I think we have to keep in mind that houston is still injured. Until he heals completely we'll never know truly what we have. Van Horn, Doleac, Starbury, Deke, Penny, and a healthy houston. Isn't such a bad team crappy contracts not withstanding.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Only Rashidi would gloat when the Knicks, with their two highest scorers injured, don't beat the reigning champs. More "fair and balanced" propoganda from Fox, er, Rashidi...
Van Horn and Houston were hurt earlier in the season. Why is it the Knicks get a free pass when they're out with Isiaih at the helm, but not so with Layden? I'm just looking for equality.
 

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Equality?????????

Rashidi,your boy Layden has gotten us into this mess....Did you expect Isaih to walk in and undo laydens fiasco in 3 weeks????

This team should have been nuked....

it wasnt and now we will pay for past sins
 

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Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
how did van horn get hurt...i didnt see that part. and We need houston down the stretch. And less of michael doleac. He can hit a J,but he does nothing else and thats not a good thing.

and NO MOOCHIE NORRIS. i hate him.
He was attacking the basket and Duncan blocked the shot, Keith went to his left Duncan stuffed it and Keiths arm twisted back with the ball.
 

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Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
Van Horn and Houston were hurt earlier in the season. Why is it the Knicks get a free pass when they're out with Isiaih at the helm, but not so with Layden? I'm just looking for equality.
Silly boy, Layden and Chaney weren't canned for the two week period when Houston and Van Horn were hurt, it was for the preceeding three years. The "inequality" is that Isiah has only been here a few weeks, and you are already trying to equate him to Layden. If you'd stop trying to Redeem Layden's Legacy, and let us settle down a bit and see what this team can and cannot do, we can have a more sane conversation about it all down the road.

No, you seem to forget a certain Dave Checketts orchestrated the Ewing trade. As usual.

(Groan...)

Stop saying as usual, I keep shooting down your assertion. I just made a long post on this a week ago (I added it below). Your energy to propogandize is heroic, and may eventually overwhelm me, but I do have enough left for one last whirl...

You have to get it in your head that Layden was the Knicks' GM, Checketts the President of all of the Garden's operations. Checketts had the Rangers, Icecapeds, Ringling Bros, Springsteen, Madonna, Striesand, and every other ****** tonk act coming through the Garden, on his back. Thus, he could not micro-manage every facet of every trade. He hired Grunfeld and then Layden to do that. One could argue that trading Ewing was a mistake, and Checketts did give the thumbs up for that. But Layden's problem was who he was traded for, Glenn Rice: and old, injured, shooting guard, when we already had a glut of Sprewell and Houston. Layden orchestrated the specifics of the trade, not Checketts. Understand?

Yes Layden had two trades put upon him, Ewing and Sprewell. To those who argue they should never have been traded at all, I agree you can blame Dolan. And for trading Sprewell I do, as it wasbased only on Dolan's hurt feelings. For Ewing I have sympathy for Patricks wish to be traded. But in either case, if one has issues with WHO THEY WERE TRADED FOR, and I do, the blame goes to Layden. He had many opportunities to trade for, or draft (or keep) young players, or athletic players, or quick players, or short contracts, or players with LEADERSHIP! Anything that plugged a missing hole on this team! But he almost never did. He just kept going for the same flavor of mayonnaise, over and over again. Ageged, slow, undersized, jumpshooting, etc. And just look at the types of players he traded away: Camby, Sprewell, Nene. Any one of those guys would be worth getting back now, as they'd be plugging a necessary hole.

Now please, just quit trying to hold every Knick accountable but Layden, it was his job and he simply didn't do it well. Get over it.

Below is my reply from last week, you may have been away and missed it. I welcome your reply, but please lets just hash this out once and for all and then move on:


Originally posted by <b>son of oakley</b>

Stop again with the propoganda! I've been very reasonable in my comments about the relationship between Dolan and Layden, but it seems your personal commitment to shield Layden from any accountability must have blinded you from them.

I've often referred to the Knicks moves as coming from "Dolan/Layden", and I've said that sometimes Layden's name is used to represent all of Knick management. And I never said Layden was solely responsible for th Knicks plight. But he does share in the responsibility - it was his job. Your repeated propoganda is that Dolan is responsible for all the Knicks bad moves and Layden all the good ones. Doesn't that seem like a bit of an incredible stretch, even to you?

Dolan owns not just the Knicks. He also owns at least as much as the Rangers, Madison Square Garden (Icecapades, Ringling Bros, concerts, etc), the MSG network, and Cablevision. Cablevison itself employs about 16,000 people (do you suppose Dolan personally hired each one?), and their gross reciepts in 2002 were in excess of $4billionUSD. I think it's a fair statement to say Mr Dolan has a lot on his plate and does not micro-manage the Knicks. He hired Mr Layden to do that. With me so far?

Ewing asked then Pres, Checketts, to be traded for his last season. As a fan who went to games, who contributed to those 433 consecutive sellouts, I understood why - fans grumbled and moaned everytime Ewing touched the ball. By that point in his career his handle, his shot, everything was worse than ever, and fans mistreated him. I felt sad for him, and if he wanted to be traded I understood him not wanting to go out in shame. If you want to fault Dolan for capitulating to generousity and sentimentality fine, you may - Van Gundy did, I didn't.

Okay, Ewing had one huge year left on his contract, and we'd have to take on another big contract in return. But how about one for a center or point guard, which we sorely needed? Did he trade for expiring contracts to allow for a rebuild? No, the main piece of Layden's trade was Rice. He was old-ish, injured, and worst of all... we already had a glut of Houston and Spree at the 2 guard position. Rice was a Houston clone with plantar fasciitis. And Dolan did not tell Layden to go get Rice, he told him to trade Ewing. Get the difference?

The only other trade Dolan had a hand in was Spree. I think it was a mistake to trade him, but again, I understood. Dolan wanted "character" guys, which I think was a mistake, I want good players. But I capitulate to the owners request. But to Layden's fault, in moving Spree we bring in another timid soft type player, one who isn't particularly athletic, isn't all that comfortable in the SF position, and can't play a lick of D. In spite of their statistical parity, Spree's intensity, defense, energy, and athleticism added a dimension the Knicks sorely need again. Still, it may have been Layden's best trade, but it was only a parity trade at best. And again, with a longer contract. That's all one can say for Layden, his best trade in his 3+ years just about broke even.

The way overpaid Houston, the overpaid Utah scrubs, the undersized power forwards, the backup point guards, the long contracts... there is nothing to suggest Dolan had anything to do with any of that, yet those signings are the signature of Layden's tenure.

So the relationship between Dolan and Layden is like most between owner and GM. The owner gives an overall direction, then hands things off to his trusted GM to mastermind. By all accounts Dolan's directive was to keep winning, but Layden did not. He didn't position us well for the present or the future. If Layden were just doing Dolan's bidding he was at best irrelevant, and there'd have been no reason to fire him.

But Layden's reign was characterized by signing old, unathletic and soft players., with much too much homogeneity between them. Eisley was too similar to Ward, Rice to similar to Houston, Van Horn too similar to Houston, Spoon too similar too Harrington who was too similar to Sweetney, Lampe too similar to Doleac who was too similar to Knight, etc.

So if you liked the Knick team pre-Thomas, and you like Layden because of it, we have no argument - I 'll just say there is no accounting for taste. But if you are trying to tell me it wasn't crafted by Layden, as you have, you typically get a beef from me. Though I admit I am losing interest in it fast.
 

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rashidi,i amy agree with you 100% in a year...in fact,i may hate thomas more than i hated layden...But that judgement wont come after 3 weeks...

Rashidi,even you must admit that Layden took on some TERRIBLE contracts,made a terrible trade for Dyss,and overpaid houston....
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Dolan signed Houston, and without the "terrible" McDyess trade, we wouldn't have been able to make the "wonderful" Marbury trade.
 

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Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
Dolan signed Houston, and without the "terrible" McDyess trade, we wouldn't have been able to make the "wonderful" Marbury trade.
Yea we would have, Camby would have been perfect for them. Let me just say 1 thing to you tool: You love Scott Layden. That doesn't make you sane. You have no idea why you like him but you hate Isiah Thomas because Howard Eisley is gone and half of Layden's cronies are out the door with him. There were moves forced upon Layden, but it was Layden who offered the dumb deals, who accepted the dumb deals offered to him, and who put a stranglehold of losing on this franchise during his tenure here. So for the final time, go back and rethink why you love Layden so much and then say "Why does all of NY and the NBA hate him?" and then come back with a reasonable answer.
 

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Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
Dolan signed Houston,
First off, please present any evidence you may have to support that claim, otherwise it is just more propoganda, pure and simple.

If I remember correctly, last time you suggested it HAD to be Dolan, because the contract was so ludicrous that no GM could sanely do it. Therefore Dolan MUST have had hidden motives (or perhaps space aliens invaded Layden's body?)... That's not evidence, that's conspiracy theory.


Furthermore, which is it, you like Layden because he was:

A) a good GM.

B) irrelevant, because Dolan orchestrated all the trades.

If A) ...Layden was a good GM... after you've subtracted the signings of Rice, Houston, and Van Horn, (cause you *contend* Dolan was responsible for all of them), what are you left with for Layden? McDyess, Motumbo (luckily his salary is subsidised by NJ), Harrington, Spoon, Eisley, Anderson, Doleac. That's four years of work that you will defend to the bitter end? That work, which put us over the cap for years to come, and was applied to a .500 club that has yet to reached that mark again, will get you fired in any market.

If B) ...Layden was irrelevant because Dolan orchestrated all the trades... that's what you want from a GM, to be paid multi-millions per year to, what, sit on his but and run up a large phone bill making personal calls?


and without the "terrible" McDyess trade, we wouldn't have been able to make the "wonderful" Marbury trade.
Why stop there? Let's thank Ewing's mom. She birthed Patrick, who when drafted allowed us to trade Cartright for Oakley, who we traded for Camby, who we traded for Dyess, who we traded for Marbury. Thanks Mrs Ewing, you made a nice trade.
 

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"Why does all of NY and the NBA hate him?" and then come back with a reasonable answer.

thats an oxymoron..rashidi and a reasonable answer??aint happening..

NYKFan123,you have been away for a while..rashidi never gives answers in feaqr of being DEAD wrong and he just can not get over Eisly being shipped out with Donny and Scott .....

Layden is teflon to rashid..nothing sticks....

Where rashidi is really good is,when you make a point contesting him,he shifts to some obscure issue which makes absolutely no sense...


I ask him"Rashidi,even you must admit that Layden took on some TERRIBLE contracts,made a terrible trade for Dyss,and overpaid houston"

and he responds with "without the "terrible" McDyess trade, we wouldn't have been able to make the "wonderful" Marbury trade"

is that a sane answer,or the answer of a basketball numnut??next thing you will hear is layden orchestrated the marbury deal...
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Yea we would have, Camby would have been perfect for them. Let me just say 1 thing to you tool:
See the problem is, Camby DOES NOT MAKE 13 MILLION, whereas McDyess DOES. Like it or not, Marbury would not be here if it weren't for McDyess. And some scrub named Maciej who came in that terrible trade too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
And LMAO, you just mentioned my name 5 times in one post. It is obvious that you care deeply about me and what I think. Stop obsessing over me. There are other posters on this board, and I'm sure they're all supremely jealous of the attention you bestow unto me. Go suck up to the new guy, I'm sure he'll appreciate it.
 
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