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Discussion Starter #1
this isn't one of those "Bonzi had another bad game" threads (or is it and I'm just kidding myself?)

when they first traded for him, there was a lot of talk that he could become their star player, even over Gasol.

I've watched only one Griz game since Bonzi joined the team, but looking over the numbers it seems like he's consistently getting only around 20-28 mpg, his shooting is a very Derek Andersonesque 41%, and his TO/Assist ratio has actually gone in the negative (2 assists for every 2.5 TO's). he's shooting 31% from 3, which is not inspiring for a shooting guard.

I used to think the bad press had really gotten into his head, and he would put up big numbers once he got out of the Portland hothouse.

I'm now starting to wonder if Bonzi will be a mini-me of Rasheed--a guy who has huge games and apparently worlds of talent, but just not the drive to become a great player. unfortunately for Bonzi, he's just not as physically gifted as Sheed to make up for that lack of drive in other ways.

the Grizzlies are still winning, so I suppose they don't really mind.

at the time of the deal, I thought Portland gave up Bonzi for way too little. I'm starting to think, however, that we actually got fair value for him.
 

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Originally posted by <b>theWanker</b>!

.....at the time of the deal, I thought Portland gave up Bonzi for way too little. I'm starting to think, however, that we actually got fair value for him.
I'm still holding opinion until the draft pick is made and that player has had a chance to play/develop. (I guess it will be awhile, huh.):D
 

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From the Grizzlie perspective...

It is real hard to measure any Grizzly by the numbers. Our rotation is 10 deep and dependent upon who is hot at the time. Mike Miller has been playing out of his mind recently, just when it seemed Bonzi would take his starting SG position. Bonzi just broke out of horrible shooting slump, which included 1-16 from 3pt range.

As a whole I am very happy with Bonzi, he has given us some much needed toughness and fearlessness. He has the ultra greenlight to shoot and his offensive aggressiveness finally seems to be rubbing off on Pau Gasol who is taking the ball to the basket hard lately. He will also allow us to be able to trade Battier if a deal comes.

However , this deal quickly becomes painful if we do not make the playoffs.
 

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Originally posted by <b>MemphisX</b>!

.....However , this deal quickly becomes painful if we do not make the playoffs.
Who says?!! :D
 

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I'll be happy to take heat for it later if Bonzi blows up and becomes more than an average to above average shooting guard, but I had pretty much given up on him as a star and mature individual...

Perhaps my judgement was premature, but the guy just doesn't seem to have the right attitude to take his game to the next level. The same could be argued about Sheed, but he started out at a much higher level in the first place and has always been more likeable to me.

Point being, I liked the trade. It's arguable that they could have done better, but getting a large expiring contract/outside shooter and a mid first round draft pick is a nice return.
 

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At risk of attracting the attention of the allseeing Bonzi Eye to the north...errr I mean Ed O....I think the subtraction of Bonzi's attitude has been in a lot of ways helpful to the maturing process of Zach and even Sheed.

If nothing else I personally enjoy watching the team more without Bonzi. His blatant disrespect towards officials and other players will definately not be missed.
 

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I really liked Bonzi. Yet, I'm liking the trade with Person and the draft pick for various reasons. I like the veteran leadership and play of Person and his 3-point shot. I only wish Memphis would start losing so the draft pick will be higher.
 

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Originally posted by <b>Schilly</b>!
At risk of attracting the attention of the allseeing Bonzi Eye to the north...errr I mean Ed O....I think the subtraction of Bonzi's attitude has been in a lot of ways helpful to the maturing process of Zach and even Sheed.

If nothing else I personally enjoy watching the team more without Bonzi. His blatant disrespect towards officials and other players will definately not be missed.
Here here! My feelings exactly!
 

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The team is 9-16 since trading Bonzi. I don't see how anyone can say with a straight face that it's worked out for Portland so far... the only way I can see people being happy about it at THIS point are those who really despised Bonzi.

Of course, if Memphis manages (somehow) to miss the playoffs, the trade looks better. Or if Portland DOES manage to gel and the maturity that some have seen in the Blazers starts to add up to wins, I'll change my tune.

At this point, though, the trade still looks like a stinker.

Ed O.
 

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Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
The team is 9-16 since trading Bonzi. I don't see how anyone can say with a straight face that it's worked out for Portland so far... the only way I can see people being happy about it at THIS point are those who really despised Bonzi.

Of course, if Memphis manages (somehow) to miss the playoffs, the trade looks better. Or if Portland DOES manage to gel and the maturity that some have seen in the Blazers starts to add up to wins, I'll change my tune.

At this point, though, the trade still looks like a stinker.

Ed O.
I think the hard thing to truely determine is if the teams record honestly would be better if Bonzi had stayed. Of course we will never know so the best we can do is move on.

IMO the salary savings and a top 14 rookie (more than likely) is on Par with Bonzis value, not to meantion that Wes' impact can, and with the McInnis trade, may have a fairly significant addition to this team.

I guess talent wise Memphis won out, but they will be giving up a draft pick, which to a young team like them is not really benefitial.
 

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I highly doubt Portland would be any better if Bonzi was still on the team. He would not have saved the day so to speak in some of the close games. He never proved that he could do it on a consistent basis. Portland could have been a few games better at best if the Bonzi deal didn't go down. I just don't see how someone could say Portland would be so much better with Bonzi in the lineup. I would rather have Sheed and Z-Bo taking most of the shots than have Bonzi throw up his low percentages.
 

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"The team is 9-16 since trading Bonzi. I don't see how anyone can say with a straight face that it's worked out for Portland so far... the only way I can see people being happy about it at THIS point are those who really despised Bonzi."
In case you forgot, the Blazers were losing WITH Bonzi. He was playing horribly, and showed no signs of breaking out of his slump. That slump has continued, to a large degree, in Memphis. He was 3 for 14 one night recently, and 1 for 9 in another game. I'm starting to think that Bonzi, rather than being an up-and-coming star, is one of those guys who peaked very early in his career. I think it's going to be downhill from this point on.

Here's how the trade has worked out for Portland. We dumped a guy with a horrible attitude who, as it turns out, was overrated. He and Wallace were, together, 2 of the biggest boneheads in the league. Now we have one less bonehead. That's a plus.

It's also a plus that we have a No. 1 pick coming our way, and a contract to let go of in Person if we choose. Subtract the piss-poor attitude, and build for the future. That's what we've done, and it's looking pretty good so far.

Remember Hubie Brown saying he expected Bonzi to move into the starting line-up very quickly? Well, it ain't happened. According to some experts, Bonzi was immediately the best player on the Memphis team. That aint' true, either. I'd much rather have Gasol than Bonzi.
 

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Once again the 9-16 record is more a result of being on the road and increased competition level than being without Bonzi. And the team is underachoieving IMHO. The two together result in a sub par record since that date.
 

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As far as Bonzi "peaking" early, I think Bonizi has gone away from what he was doing when he earned the starting role. WHen he was backing up Steve SMith he was playing with possitive energy and getting a lot of sneaky backdoor layups/dunks, by being active. As his role increased witht the team he got further away from that style of slashing and energy and went more to the one on one style play. Bonzi was a godd post up player against other SG's but he wasn't quite so good in a face up one on one scenario.
 

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Originally posted by <b>Talkhard</b>!

In case you forgot, the Blazers were losing WITH Bonzi.
8-7 before the trade. EVERY team loses. But not every team loses at a significantly worse clip after making a trade.

I'd much rather have Gasol than Bonzi.
I'd rather have McGrady than Damon... so what?

Ed O.
 

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"not every team loses at a significantly worse clip after making a trade."
Now pay attention, Ed. I'm going to say this S-L-O-W-L-Y.

The Blazers' record since the trade may have nothing to do with Bonzi's absence. As far as any of us know, the team would have performed just as poorly with him still on the roster.

Got it? Here endeth the lesson.

"I'd rather have McGrady than Damon... so what?"
Did you really not understand my original point, or are you just trying to be difficult? Here's the point again, just for you. Bonzi was heralded as a very talented player who would immediately rise to the top in Memphis. It didn't happen. The fact that it didn't happen, and Gasol seems to be a much better player than Bonzi, suggests that Portland may have known what it was doing after all. I.E., Bonzi was overrated. Okay?
 

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Discussion Starter #17
one other note--it may be more fair to look at the Bonzi-for-draft-picks trade now with the perspective of the overall youth movement that includes the McInnis for Miles trade, saying adios to Daniels/Pip/Sabas, and not signing Payton.

these moves, coupled with rising playing time of Woods (finally) and Randolph, is at last giving me the feeling that Nash and Patterson have some sort of vision for the team.

if you want to create a youth movement, you probably don't want a distracting guy like Bonzi on your team, especially if you plan on keeping Sheed. on an established, mentally solid playoff team, Bonzi clearly is more useful. I cringe at the idea of Bonzi showing kids the ropes of how to be an NBA player.

given the huge cap room and the growing availability of free agents in 2005, it's becoming clear to me that trading Bonzi was more than just a PR move. it was about an overall vision of adding youngsters and character to guide those youngsters.

overall, I disagree with the strategy. I think we would've been better off signing Payton and keeping Wells, and trying to make some serious noise in the playoffs.

once Paul Allen flinched at the cost of Payton, though, I think Nash and Patterson have made the right choices.
 

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Originally posted by <b>Talkhard</b>!

Now pay attention, Ed. I'm going to say this S-L-O-W-L-Y.

The Blazers' record since the trade may have nothing to do with Bonzi's absence. As far as any of us know, the team would have performed just as poorly with him still on the roster.

Got it? Here endeth the lesson.
The mere fact that it MAY have nothing to do with it isn't very compelling. It's like saying that the team's recent struggles MAY have nothing to do with Damon playing heavy minutes, or MAY not have anything to do with Cheeks struggling as a coach.

Does this mean that these things are clearly not negatives, just because they MAY not have anything to do with us losing?

Of course not. The possibility needs to be considered, but the possibility isn't that strong in any of these three factors, though, so I think they all need to be treated as serious negatives.

As far as what this thread is about: WHY would someone's mind be changed since the trade? That's the key question I think we're trying to address.

People who were in favor of the trade at the time almost certainly still should be; Bonzi hasn't been great in Memphis (although they've been pretty good since he's been there).

But people who were opposed to the trade (like me) almost certainly still should be, and that's because of (as I mentioned) the Blazers' struggles and because of Memphis's successes since the deal (they seem more likely to make the playoffs today than before they made the trade, and that makes the pick less valuable to Portland).

I'm not going to spend a lot of time re-arguing why I think it was a bad trade unless we have new data. At this point, we really don't, so I don't see why anyone would change their mind at this point.

Ed O.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
I'm not going to spend a lot of time re-arguing why I think it was a bad trade unless we have new data. At this point, we really don't, so I don't see why anyone would change their mind at this point.

Ed O.
I changed my mind, as I posted above, based on the premise that Nash and Patterson have proven with the Miles trade that we are going on a youth movement.

while keeping Bonzi around in a youth movement may not be as disasterous as keeping a guy like JR Rider, you have to admit somebody like Wesley Person and draft picks are probably better options.

at the only Memphis game we've played against Bonzi, I remember seeing only one or two Blazers actually going up to him and BSing.

even Rider seemed better liked after he left. for whatever reason, he didn't seem to have a positive influence in the locker room. on a great team, you overlook that. on a team trying to mold rising youngsters, you probably shouldn't.
 

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Bonzi being here or not is really moot, don't ya think.

BTW food for thought...Payton has a player option for next season, meaning he can opt out. Chances are Malone will retire and Kobe will opt out leaving Shaq and GP.

My Guess is and it has been speculated that GP will opt out and return to Seattle, or maybe Portland for the MLE. Just a thought, but how would GP, Sheed and the cast of young dudes look for a couple of years?

Depends on how serious Portland is at gettting under the cap. Personally I haven't heard them say "get under the cap" only that they want to trim salary.

Going after the FA market has been a fairly significant flop for most teams in the last few years.
 
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