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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
All-American Teams Announced

All-American Teams Announced...

1st Team:
G J.J. Redick, Duke
G Chris Paul, Wake Forest
F Wayne Simien, Kansas
F Hakim Warrick, Syracuse
FC Andrew Bogut, Utah

Second Team:
G Dee Brown, Illinois
G Luther Head, Illinois
G Salim Stoudamire, Arizona
F Sean May, North Carolina
F Ike Diogu, Arizona State

Third Team:
G Deron Williams, Illinois
G Nate Robinson, Washington
G Raymond Felton, North Carolina
F Shelden Williams, Duke
F Joey Graham, Oklahoma State

(Congrats to Dee, Luther, and Deron!)
 

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I would like to give kudos to the SEC for their excellent showing on the all-american teams.
 

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Its a travesty that Adam Morrison isnt on there....
 

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Chris Paul being a first-teamer is a joke. Morrison should have been at least on third team, and Felton should have been ahead either of Head or Brown.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
So your gonna take an Illini player off 2nd team for Felton? I'm sorry if I disagree with you.. I dont like Paul being on the first team but what can I say.. The Guards for Illinois had to be rewarded one way or another for being so good this year. Heck you can make a case Deron Williams was better this year than Luther Head and/or Dee Brown..

Am I the only one that thinks it's hilarious that the two best teams in College Basketball doesnt have a 1st Teamer, and 3 of the First Teamer's are sitting on their asses right now? :clap:

Actually I dont really disagree much on this..

Give me that 2nd team and I'll take them to win 7/10 times against the 1st team. :laugh:

Give me that 3rd team and I'll take them to win 6/10 times against the 2nd team. :laugh:
 

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Brian34Cook said:
So your gonna take an Illini player off 2nd team for Felton? I'm sorry if I disagree with you..
I understand. Its Illinois bias, just like I have UNC bias. Felton had a great year, as did Brown and Head, and Williams for that matter, but I feel Felton had a bit more to do with his teams success than any one of those individual guards. He created practically every scoring opportunity for the Heels this year, whether or not he got the assist, as well as stepped up in the clutch with his own offense. I personally feel Paul should be a third-teamer, Felton a first-teamer, and Head and Brown stay where they are, but hey, I have UNC bias.
 

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zagsfan20 said:
Its a travesty that Adam Morrison isnt on there....

i agree but its hard for underclassmen to make these teams. the guys that pick these teams arent doing anything more than watch an occasional espn highlight. i am not going to argue who morrison should of replaced and i will add that you could have picked him at the 2 or 3 postion but i will say with confidence that if there were a draft of just american players he doesnt drop below 5.
 

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Morrison should replace Jpey Graham on that list easily.....
 

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Er, why should he replace Joey Graham?

Do you watch any basketball outside of Gonzaga? Morrison had a nice year, but he doesn't "easily" replace anyone on that list.
 

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vadimivich said:
Er, why should he replace Joey Graham?

Do you watch any basketball outside of Gonzaga? Morrison had a nice year, but he doesn't "easily" replace anyone on that list.
He shouldn't.....Morrison is over rated and as we now know, so was the entire Gonzaga team.
 

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vadimivich said:
Er, why should he replace Joey Graham?

Do you watch any basketball outside of Gonzaga? Morrison had a nice year, but he doesn't "easily" replace anyone on that list.

I watch plenty of basketball outside of Gonzaga......Do you watch any of Gonzagas games?

Joey Graham has what a combined 8 points in the tournament?

Look at the head to head matchup between Graham and Morrison.....

Morrison carried his team throughout the WCC tournament and carried his team in the NCAA tournament....

Graham didnt play good in big games....
 

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Joey Graham has what a combined 8 points in the tournament?
This would be a good support for your argument, but the All-American team is a reflection of accomplishments during the regular season, and Graham did more than enough in the regular season to earn a spot on the team....17.5 ppg, 6.1 rpg while shooting 53% from the field and 88% for the FT line. Along with the fact that he plays with stars in John Lucas, Ivan McFarlin, and Jameson Curry, his stats are even more impressive.

Look at the head to head matchup between Graham and Morrison.....
Graham - (with a better supporting cast and tougher opponents)
17.5 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 2.1 apg, 53% FG, 89% FT

Morrison -(with a solid supporting cast, but weaker opponents as a whole)
19.0 ppg, 5.5 rebs, 2.8 apg, 49.8% FG, 78.5% FT

Morrison carried his team throughout the WCC tournament and carried his team in the NCAA tournament....
Again, the All-American award isn't a postseason award. Even if it was, Morrison "carried" his team to a 2nd round loss to a lower seeded opponent. I don't think it was that big of an upset, but a player that is supposedly All-American material should be able to "carry" a 3rd seeded team farther than the 2nd round.

Graham didnt play good in big games....
Graham versus Tournament Teams:
Dec. 20th vs. UAB: 20 points, 7 rebs (win)
March 12th @ Kansas: 25 points, 1 rb (win)
Feb. 7th vs. Oklahoma: 22 points, 3 rebs (win)
Jan. 8th @ Texas Tech: 25 points, 12 rebs, 3 assts (win)
Jan 15th vs. Iowa State: 20 points, 7 rebs, 3 assists (win)
Feb. 27th @ Kansas: 19 points, 4 rebs, 2 assists (loss)
Mar. 13th vs. Texas Tech: 16 points, 11 rebounds (win)
Dec. 7th @ Syracuse: 16 points, 4 rebounds (win)
Dec. 28th vs Gonzaga: 8 points, 8 rebounds (loss)
Jan 7th @ Texas: 12 points, 7 rebounds (loss)
Mar. 5th vs. Texas: 17 points, 3 rebounds, 2 assists (loss)

Oklahoma State went 7-4 against tournment teams, which is pretty good. In those games, Graham averaged 18.2 points/game and 6.1 rebounds/game, meaning that he actually played better in the "big" games.
 

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Brian34Cook said:
So your gonna take an Illini player off 2nd team for Felton? I'm sorry if I disagree with you.. I dont like Paul being on the first team but what can I say.. The Guards for Illinois had to be rewarded one way or another for being so good this year. Heck you can make a case Deron Williams was better this year than Luther Head and/or Dee Brown..

Am I the only one that thinks it's hilarious that the two best teams in College Basketball doesnt have a 1st Teamer, and 3 of the First Teamer's are sitting on their asses right now? :clap:

Actually I dont really disagree much on this..

Give me that 2nd team and I'll take them to win 7/10 times against the 1st team. :laugh:

Give me that 3rd team and I'll take them to win 6/10 times against the 2nd team. :laugh:

What are you laughing at exactly. Laughing at yourself for being so biased, that you can make such ridiculous assertions.

And if you find that Hakim Warrick and Wayne Simien are not first team americans, then that is the hilarious part.
 

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Brian34Cook said:
So your gonna take an Illini player off 2nd team for Felton? I'm sorry if I disagree with you.. I dont like Paul being on the first team but what can I say.. The Guards for Illinois had to be rewarded one way or another for being so good this year. Heck you can make a case Deron Williams was better this year than Luther Head and/or Dee Brown..

Am I the only one that thinks it's hilarious that the two best teams in College Basketball doesnt have a 1st Teamer, and 3 of the First Teamer's are sitting on their asses right now? :clap:

Actually I dont really disagree much on this..

Give me that 2nd team and I'll take them to win 7/10 times against the 1st team. :laugh:

Give me that 3rd team and I'll take them to win 6/10 times against the 2nd team. :laugh:
rewarded for being so good? as if the other guards such as paul or felton shouldnt? That is the most stupid reason ive ever heard to be 1st team.
 

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DHarris34Phan said:
This would be a good support for your argument, but the All-American team is a reflection of accomplishments during the regular season, and Graham did more than enough in the regular season to earn a spot on the team....17.5 ppg, 6.1 rpg while shooting 53% from the field and 88% for the FT line. Along with the fact that he plays with stars in John Lucas, Ivan McFarlin, and Jameson Curry, his stats are even more impressive.
Actually, I would make the case for the opposite. With future draft picks like Derek Raivio, Rony Turiaf, and Erroll Knight, along with darn good roleplayers like JP Batista, Gonzaga had as much or more talent as Oklahoma State. Given how Gonzaga scores a lot more PPG, I can almost assure you that when looking at % of team scoring, Graham is ahead of Morrison. The only way you couldn't see this is if you didn't catch the Zags much during the regular season, so I am going to assume you didn't.

Graham - (with a better supporting cast and tougher opponents)
17.5 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 2.1 apg, 53% FG, 89% FT

Morrison -(with a solid supporting cast, but weaker opponents as a whole)
19.0 ppg, 5.5 rebs, 2.8 apg, 49.8% FG, 78.5% FT


Again, the All-American award isn't a postseason award. Even if it was, Morrison "carried" his team to a 2nd round loss to a lower seeded opponent. I don't think it was that big of an upset, but a player that is supposedly All-American material should be able to "carry" a 3rd seeded team farther than the 2nd round.
Joey Graham has played like total garbage and his team hasn't missed a beat. What does that tell you about his role in "carrying" anything for OSU this year?

Graham versus Tournament Teams:
Dec. 20th vs. UAB: 20 points, 7 rebs (win)
March 12th @ Kansas: 25 points, 1 rb (win)
Feb. 7th vs. Oklahoma: 22 points, 3 rebs (win)
Jan. 8th @ Texas Tech: 25 points, 12 rebs, 3 assts (win)
Jan 15th vs. Iowa State: 20 points, 7 rebs, 3 assists (win)
Feb. 27th @ Kansas: 19 points, 4 rebs, 2 assists (loss)
Mar. 13th vs. Texas Tech: 16 points, 11 rebounds (win)
Dec. 7th @ Syracuse: 16 points, 4 rebounds (win)
Dec. 28th vs Gonzaga: 8 points, 8 rebounds (loss)
Jan 7th @ Texas: 12 points, 7 rebounds (loss)
Mar. 5th vs. Texas: 17 points, 3 rebounds, 2 assists (loss)

Oklahoma State went 7-4 against tournment teams, which is pretty good. In those games, Graham averaged 18.2 points/game and 6.1 rebounds/game, meaning that he actually played better in the "big" games.
If you are going to perform an unbiased analysis, maybe you should look at what Morrison has done against tourney teams. I will tell you up front, his numbers blow Graham's decent stat lines off the board. You simply aren't going to get anywhere on the "Graham has produced against good competition" argument, because Morrison has raised his game very significantly against the best in the nation.

Also in the equation is that when these two teams met, Gonzaga won and Morrison outscored Graham 19 to 8. Morrison was unstoppable in the first half, when Gonzaga built up a double-digit lead and put the game away.

Maybe Graham looks better to somebody who hasn't been following Morrison since the beginning of the year, but Morrison is clearly the better player of the two, and had the better season.
 

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Actually, I would make the case for the opposite. With future draft picks like Derek Raivio, Rony Turiaf, and Erroll Knight, along with darn good roleplayers like JP Batista, Gonzaga had as much or more talent as Oklahoma State. Given how Gonzaga scores a lot more PPG, I can almost assure you that when looking at % of team scoring, Graham is ahead of Morrison. The only way you couldn't see this is if you didn't catch the Zags much during the regular season, so I am going to assume you didn't.
This goes to my strength of competion arguement...no disrespect to the WCC, because they are getting stronger by the year, but of course Gonzaga is going to score more points, and of course their leading scorer Morrison will score most of those points. Even so, Morrison only averaged roughly 2 points more than Joey Graham, which I think makes the case for Graham better.


Joey Graham has played like total garbage and his team hasn't missed a beat. What does that tell you about his role in "carrying" anything for OSU this year?
I never said that Graham single-handley carried his team this season, like the previous poster said about Morrison....I am just saying that he is the best player on one of the best teams in the nation. Although I think it should not be criteria for deciding post-season honors, it sometimes is.


If you are going to perform an unbiased analysis, maybe you should look at what Morrison has done against tourney teams. I will tell you up front, his numbers blow Graham's decent stat lines off the board. You simply aren't going to get anywhere on the "Graham has produced against good competition" argument, because Morrison has raised his game very significantly against the best in the nation.
Ok....Gonzaga played 8 tournament teams in the regular season, including Montana once and Saint Mary's twice. Gonzaga went 6-2 in these games, very impressive. Morrison's "mind blowing" numbers are 21.8 ppg, 5.4 rpg...which is better than Grahams, but in 3 games (St. Mary's x2, Montana), the teams are worse than all of the tourney teams OK State played. So, to your point about raising his game against the best in the nation, you are right that Morrison has raised his game, but not much more statistically than Graham's 18 and 6.

Also in the equation is that when these two teams met, Gonzaga won and Morrison outscored Graham 19 to 8. Morrison was unstoppable in the first half, when Gonzaga built up a double-digit lead and put the game away.
Good point...but I think more of that statline had to do with possible 1st Round pick Ronny Turiaf shutting down Graham, and Morrison being covered by a much lesser opponent in Daniel Bobek.

Maybe Graham looks better to somebody who hasn't been following Morrison since the beginning of the year, but Morrison is clearly the better player of the two, and had the better season.
I still don't see where you can say Morrison is clearly the better player....him and Graham average almost the same throughout the regular season, and in big games. The deciding factor in the discussion is that Ok. State was the better team, and Joey Graham was the best player on that team.
 

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This goes to my strength of competion arguement...no disrespect to the WCC, because they are getting stronger by the year, but of course Gonzaga is going to score more points, and of course their leading scorer Morrison will score most of those points. Even so, Morrison only averaged roughly 2 points more than Joey Graham, which I think makes the case for Graham better.
But look at what Gonzaga did against teams like Oklahoma State and Georgia Tech. They didn't just put up points against the weak teams.

Ok....Gonzaga played 8 tournament teams in the regular season, including Montana once and Saint Mary's twice. Gonzaga went 6-2 in these games, very impressive. Morrison's "mind blowing" numbers are 21.8 ppg, 5.4 rpg...which is better than Grahams, but in 3 games (St. Mary's x2, Montana), the teams are worse than all of the tourney teams OK State played. So, to your point about raising his game against the best in the nation, you are right that Morrison has raised his game, but not much more statistically than Graham's 18 and 6.
Ok, so take out those three. He had something like 26 against Illinois and Washington, 24 against Ga Tech, and 19 against Oklahoma State. That's 24 ppg. Is that significant enough for you?

Furthermore, I find it amusing that you went out of your way to hype Graham's 0.7 ppg increase in scoring against tourney teams, but claim that Morrison's 2.8 ppg increase vs Graham's 0.7 isn't "much".

His 2 25+ point games in the tourney can't be used in a regular season discussion, but they do support my argument that Morrison's actually plays better against better competition.

Good point...but I think more of that statline had to do with possible 1st Round pick Ronny Turiaf shutting down Graham, and Morrison being covered by a much lesser opponent in Daniel Bobek.
Come on now...Daniel Bobik is the guy that Sutton puts on the opponent's best wing, and he's done it all season. If Graham was that much better of a wing defender, he would have been on Morrsion, CONSIDERING, that Turiaf was playing on a bum ankle and hardly even played in the 2nd half. He STILL managed to put up 10 points in 18 minutes. Graham didn't shut anybody down. If anything, he got burned by a severely hobbled player. I don't mind having a heated debate, but at least have the decency to get your facts straight and actually know the details of the topic at hand.

And none of this has to do with the fact that Graham still only scored 9 points...

I still don't see where you can say Morrison is clearly the better player....him and Graham average almost the same throughout the regular season, and in big games. The deciding factor in the discussion is that Ok. State was the better team, and Joey Graham was the best player on that team.
I really don't think you can say OSU was the better team. Gonzaga beat them in their head-to-head matchup, and had quality wins over Georgia Tech and Washington to back it up. And while you can't bring the tournament into the equation because this is a regular season award (as you said), they were up by 13 in the second half against a team that nearly upset OSU in the Big XII championship game. OSU was a 2 seed, Gonzaga was a 3. At the very least, comparable teams.
 
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