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Discussion Starter #1
Over the last 17 games, Ben Gordon's shooting percentage has been 38.1%. I would say that it's a long enough stretch to where it's more than just a mini-slump. Now, I've been told that players shooting at such a low percentage should look to set up their teammates more often. Ben, however, still leads the team in shots per 48 min (by far). Surprised there hasn't been much acrimony over this.
 

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Actually, I've hardly noticed. I think it's because he seems to make them when he needs to, whereas while Hinrich's in his shooting slump he misses the clutch ones too, so you notice it more.

Thats just how it seems to me, I didnt even realize he was shooting poorly lately.
 

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I have a theory about the Bull and shooting %. Everyone knows by now that we are racing the Spur for best FG% defense in the league. I've been noticing recently that we don't start out the game causing our opponents to miss, but that the opposition's FG% decreases steadily as the game wears on. This is likely due to two main factors. Factor 1 is the Bull stepping it up on D, Factor 2 is the fatigue of playing the physical high energy game the Bull brings to the floor.

It's not hard to extrapolate from this idea, then, that the Bull also gets worn out and thus take shots on tired legs. Is it surprising that Ben's "slump" is coincidental with him playing more earlier in the games? Is it surprising that Kirk and Chris have pretty much shot for crap all season?

It's not surprising that the effect on the bigs would be somewhat less, given that they are not chasing other world-class athletes around the perimeter all night and that their shots are much closer range.

I think after a couple of seasons of this style of play, it will have less effect on our guys since they do it game in and game out. For now, though, the same energy that makes us one of the best FG% defenses in the league also causes our team to shoot one of the worst FG% in the league as well.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
As a side note, does anyone find it amusing that Ben Gordon (42%) is generally seen as an awesome shooter whereas Kirk (39%) is seen as horrible? You can check out just about any game thread, and there's usually a smattering of "OMG!!!!!!!!11 WHY IS KIRK SHOOTING??!?!! :curse:" and "I just want the ball in Gordon's hands from now on! :yes:"

Think about it this way, for every 100 shots taken, Ben makes 42 while Kirk makes 39. So Ben makes just 3 more shots for every 100 shots taken. That seems like nothing to me. I will admit there'd a difference between the two guys in terms of shooting, but not enough to justify some the board's slanted reaction.
 

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Frankensteiner said:
As a side note, does anyone find it amusing that Ben Gordon (42%) is generally seen as an awesome shooter whereas Kirk (39%) is seen as horrible? You can check out just about any game thread, and there's usually a smattering of "OMG!!!!!!!!11 WHY IS KIRK SHOOTING??!?!! :curse:" and "I just want the ball in Gordon's hands from now on! :yes:"

Think about it this way, for every 100 shots taken, Ben makes 42 while Kirk makes 39. So Ben makes just 3 more shots for every 100 shots taken. That seems like nothing to me. I will admit there'd a difference between the two guys in terms of shooting, but not enough to justify some the board's slanted reaction.
Ben had a very respectable shooting percentage until this slump. He's shooting pretty badly now. He looked terrible yesterday. It is a problem because he is right now only exceptional as a scorer. When he has a slump shooting, he's just not exceptional.

Nevertheless, we've won five in a row, so it hasn't been killing the team.
 

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Gordon was 13-14 FT shooting last night.

Good things happen when the ball's in his hands, even if he isn't making the long shots we're accustomed to seeing him make.

14 FTs makes it a lot more than just 3 more FG over 100 attempts.
 

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DaBullz said:
Gordon was 13-14 FT shooting last night.

Good things happen when the ball's in his hands, even if he isn't making the long shots we're accustomed to seeing him make.

14 FTs makes it a lot more than just 3 more FG over 100 attempts.
This is a very good point. That's also the reason that Iverson's low fg percentage has been misleading, at least at certain points of the year. If two made free throws counted as a 1 for 1 from the field, Iverson would have a much high fg percentage.
 

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I was expecting a thread like this given Gordon's shooting issues. A week or so ago I compiled and posted the stats for the three guards over the previous near 20 games and it was surprising how close all three actually were.

Ben is playing better D, but he shows absolutely NO ability to run the team. He will need to make miraculous strides for those insistent he can somehow become a point guard. He is still a liability when his is not efficient on offense. Last night was a horrible game for him saved only by 4 technical foul shots and the Pacers intentionally fouling late.

You are correct though, the sample size is large enough now that these threads should start popping up. Quite funny that they have not. Is it the Jammy effect, is it hero worship, or is it just black and white? Sure, we'll hear ad nauseum how Gordon has come up big to close out some games this year. Some will profess this is all that matters in their SC-driven basketball world. Some will exaggerate the stats and their claims of Gordon's godliness. It'll all be on display here soon.

Yet, perhaps this summer he should be moved for Corey Maggette or Joe Johnson. Its possible Gordon's value will never be higher. A reasonable thread recently on the very subject drew the ire of the Gordon-base. Isn't it swell to have such demographics? Perhaps we have someone here who could analyze the bases to determine who is in which crowd (Hinrich/Crawford/Gordon/(and now)Duhon). Anyway, such a move will spare the Bulls the nightly physical mismatches. Hinrich + (Maggette/Johnson) with Duhon and Pike (or whoever) in the backcourt seems good enough to me. Hinrich + Gordon + Duhon + imaginary big SG still says the Bulls will be operating at a disadvantage most of the time.

Its a shame we can't pull for each of the Bulls, but I suppose this is what happens when you start rooting against one guy on the team. You hate Hinrich? Your guy is doing ok right now? Well, what happens when your guy starts to struggle? The other guy whose had his boo attacked daily, just might just decide its time to start attacking YOUR boo. After all, if we're going to impose such demanding standards for one guys boo, we've got to do it to everybodies boo.

Yes, its ashame the folks who have been quick-triggered to post their "shots" at Hinrich while he's been out haven't jumped on Ben with all fours either. As Slim put it, their reasons could be race driven, or it could be because of his vertical, but to a man they'll tell you its the fact he can come off the bench for 20 minutes per game and get all of his points in the fourth quarter. After all, whats playing the right way or playing the whole game when you can please the SC-crowd?

Signed,

The :evil: Advocate

* * *

Now let me ask you:

Wouldn't it be better to discuss the Bulls as a team or at least from a viewpoint that you're an honest to goodness fan of the "team"?

Wouldn't it be better to be consumed by our playoff run and not by petty jealousies between posters favorite players?

Wouldn't it be a much nicer experience here if we could all get along without whining?

Wouldn't this be the perfect opportunity to ask yourself why are you a Bulls fan and what do you most want out of being a fan?

Why can't we all just get along?
 

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DaBullz said:
Gordon was 13-14 FT shooting last night.

Good things happen when the ball's in his hands, even if he isn't making the long shots we're accustomed to seeing him make.

14 FTs makes it a lot more than just 3 more FG over 100 attempts.
Typical, using stats to state your case and ignoring the details. Four technical free throws and another (at least 4) that were in the last 30 seconds due to intentional fouling.

Some of the other good things are 5th in the league in turnovers, right?

Funny though and look how easy it is to start attacking your boo!
 

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Darius Miles Davis said:
This is a very good point. That's also the reason that Iverson's low fg percentage has been misleading, at least at certain points of the year. If two made free throws counted as a 1 for 1 from the field, Iverson would have a much high fg percentage.
I think Hollinger who is given god-status by many stat geeks here gave AI the nod as the L's #1 ballhog, didn't he?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
DaBullz said:
Gordon was 13-14 FT shooting last night.

Good things happen when the ball's in his hands, even if he isn't making the long shots we're accustomed to seeing him make.
Uhh, no. In the 16 games prior to last night's game he was averaging 2.56 FTA per game. Kirk hardly gets to the line, but he's still averaging 3.00 FTA per game on the season.

And I wouldn't say that "good things happen when the ball's in his hands" as evidenced by his high turnover rate.
 

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Mr. T said:
I was expecting a thread like this given Gordon's shooting issues. A week or so ago I compiled and posted the stats for the three guards over the previous near 20 games and it was surprising how close all three actually were.

Ben is playing better D, but he shows absolutely NO ability to run the team. He will need to make miraculous strides for those insistent he can somehow become a point guard. He is still a liability when his is not efficient on offense. Last night was a horrible game for him saved only by 4 technical foul shots and the Pacers intentionally fouling late.

You are correct though, the sample size is large enough now that these threads should start popping up. Quite funny that they have not. Is it the Jammy effect, is it hero worship, or is it just black and white? Sure, we'll hear ad nauseum how Gordon has come up big to close out some games this year. Some will profess this is all that matters in their SC-driven basketball world. Some will exaggerate the stats and their claims of Gordon's godliness. It'll all be on display here soon.

Yet, perhaps this summer he should be moved for Corey Maggette or Joe Johnson. Its possible Gordon's value will never be higher. A reasonable thread recently on the very subject drew the ire of the Gordon-base. Isn't it swell to have such demographics? Perhaps we have someone here who could analyze the bases to determine who is in which crowd (Hinrich/Crawford/Gordon/(and now)Duhon). Anyway, such a move will spare the Bulls the nightly physical mismatches. Hinrich + (Maggette/Johnson) with Duhon and Pike (or whoever) in the backcourt seems good enough to me. Hinrich + Gordon + Duhon + imaginary big SG still says the Bulls will be operating at a disadvantage most of the time.

Its a shame we can't pull for each of the Bulls, but I suppose this is what happens when you start rooting against one guy on the team. You hate Hinrich? Your guy is doing ok right now? Well, what happens when your guy starts to struggle? The other guy whose had his boo attacked daily, just might just decide its time to start attacking YOUR boo. After all, if we're going to impose such demanding standards for one guys boo, we've got to do it to everybodies boo.

Yes, its ashame the folks who have been quick-triggered to post their "shots" at Hinrich while he's been out haven't jumped on Ben with all fours either. As Slim put it, their reasons could be race driven, or it could be because of his vertical, but to a man they'll tell you its the fact he can come off the bench for 20 minutes per game and get all of his points in the fourth quarter. After all, whats playing the right way or playing the whole game when you can please the SC-crowd?

Signed,

The :evil: Advocate
Great post. I've actually been thinking that trading Gordon might be for the best, we'd probably get a lot in return for him, we wouldn't be at a disadvantage everytime he is on the floor, and we'd probably get more offensive efficiency from Hinrich if he could play one position. Maybe not though.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Mr. T said:
* * *
Now let me ask you:

Wouldn't it be better to discuss the Bulls as a team or at least from a viewpoint that you're an honest to goodness fan of the "team"?

Wouldn't it be better to be consumed by our playoff run and not by petty jealousies between posters favorite players?

Wouldn't it be a much nicer experience here if we could all get along without whining?

Wouldn't this be the perfect opportunity to ask yourself why are you a Bulls fan and what do you most want out of being a fan?

Why can't we all just get along?
For the record, Ben Gordon has probably become my favorite player on the team. I just thought, as you alluded to, that there's some leeway on this board given to players who show a certain "flair" to their game as opposed to those who don't (even when there's not much difference in their overall contributions to the team).

And for the record part II, I'm pretty sure Gordon and Hinrich should be our backcourt of the future.
 

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Hollinger uses a stat he developed called the usage rate which determines how many possessions a player uses per 40 minutes. An average player uses 20%.

Hollinger says AI leads the league in usage rate (34.4%) and nobody else is even close. He notes how Webber who would have been #7 in the league with Sacramento but drops to #25 with Philly. Meanwhile AI only drops 1%. "Small potatoes" according to Hollinger, with AI still leading the league with nobody else close. Meanwhile Webber dropped 5% and out of the top 20. Iverson has won this stat 6 of the last 7 years (McGrady).

He described AI's offense as having a "love affair with the ball".

In the SC-age, AI's fan club can always overlook this or as it has been explained here by some, "nobody else wants the ball". Of course that would come as a surprise to Stackhouse, Van Horn, now Webber and even Larry Brown.

What I liked best was when AI was making things happen against us with the ball in his hands. I particularly enjoyed his 11 turnovers.


Usage Rate = (League Pace x 40 x [FTA + TO + (AST/3) + (FTA x 0.44)]) / (Team Pace x Minutes)
 

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Frankensteiner said:
For the record, Ben Gordon has probably become my favorite player on the team. I just thought, as you alluded to, that there's some leeway on this board given to players who show a certain "flair" to their game as opposed to those who don't (even when there's not much difference in their overall contributions to the team).

And for the record part II, I'm pretty sure Gordon and Hinrich should be our backcourt of the future.
There is not one guy on this team I don't like. I love this team! Some folks just need to temper their attacks on the players and coaches! We're all supposed to be BULLS fans.
 

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Mr. T said:
There is not one guy on this team I don't like. I love this team! Some folks just need to temper their attacks on the players and coaches! We're all supposed to be BULLS fans.
But you've got to admit, it's funny sometimes...

Remember when we had to make a list of the "little things" in basketball because some young poster didn't believe they existed?

Or how a Curryite can act like the little things don't mean anything?

Or how people assume Kirk has good leadership skills because he is white?

I've read some truly comical stuff from people who, for one reason or another, don't seem to believe what even the national media tells them. We all have our own opinions, but some people will try to "argue" the most obvious of things and discredit what 99% of people see plain as day.

But that's just me, I'm always up for a good laugh and I have a very bizarre sense of humor (see the EC song). Which I blame on growing up listening to Redd Foxx and Richard Pryor albums because they are.... ah, screw it.
 

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His shot has definitely been MIA, but that 42% is a little misleading. He was shooting 46% prior to this month. That is nothing short of fantastic by today's standards for a guard.

I think he'll be fine once he finds a good balance between offense and D. He's busting his butt on D lately, which is hurting his O. That can be improved with better conditioning since right now he tends to get tired by just playing hard on one end of the court.

But even with all this cold shooting lately, he's NEVER a liability on the court. Especially NOT on this team where he's really the only player who can break down the D and consistently create his own shot. Ben's really too talented an offensive player to continue shooting poorly. And his D has come a long way as well. There's a reason Y Skiles has him playing so many mins. lately.
 

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DaBullz said:
Gordon was 13-14 FT shooting last night.

Good things happen when the ball's in his hands, even if he isn't making the long shots we're accustomed to seeing him make.

14 FTs makes it a lot more than just 3 more FG over 100 attempts.
Gordon averages 1.9 more FTA per 48 minutes than does Hinrich. That's about 1.5 points.
 

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Gordon shooting is piss poor, as bad as Hinrichs. The reason why Gordon isn't seen as a bad shooter is because he turns into the worlds best shooter in the clutch. He sucks for the first 3 quarters for some reason, we might as well sit him for the first 3. It seems gimmicky that he sucks for the first 3 and then gets hot in the 4th. I don't know what his problem is. I think this team just needs to work the offense around Eddy and let the guards people double team Curry allowing Curry to pass out of the post giving the guards open looks. Gordon tries to do too much with the ball that he can't do until the 4th quarter.
 

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I think it's because Ben has been forcing alot of his shots lately and the opponents have zoned in on him more since he has a reputation now of making clutch shots. You can tell too that he's shot have been more hurried and usually bounces off the rim or in and out because he is rushing his shots before the double team. Plus the fact that Kirk's out, he's playing more minutes and is trying to be the hero on O alot. WHereas before he was just expected to spark the offense in the 2nd half, mainly the 4th.
 
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