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What is he saying that is biased? It's not like he was the only person with league sources to shine light on the problems with the front office and Thibs. Heck, Adrian Woj was taking about this stuff 2 seasons ago. Is his credibility on the line?

Just because he's not a Bulls shill like the majority of people who cover Bulls, that makes him not credible?
Cowley slants every article he writes in some way. You could find his photo in the textbook definition of biased reporting.

Woj is the same way. Woj loses alot of credibility to me because of the way in which he gets his information. He basically sells biased/slanted stories in exchange for information. This isn't exactly a secret, it's pretty well known at this point. You don't become the most plugged in NBA writer in the world without slanting stories in favor of your information providers.

And before you bring it up, yes, guys like KC Johnson are likely the same way, but from the Bulls front office point of view.

This is why I hate media, BTW. This problem goes way beyond sports.
 

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Woj is the same way. Woj loses alot of credibility to me because of the way in which he gets his information. He basically sells biased/slanted stories in exchange for information. This isn't exactly a secret, it's pretty well known at this point. You don't become the most plugged in NBA writer in the world without slanting stories in favor of your information providers.

And before you bring it up, yes, guys like KC Johnson are likely the same way, but from the Bulls front office point of view.

This is why I hate media, BTW. This problem goes way beyond sports.
Fair enough. But, these guys are accused of posting slanted stuff mostly because when they give the front office a chance to give their side of the story, they either don't or they just leak it to their own lap dog beat writers like KC Johnson, who IMO lack way more credibility than the likes of Woj and Cowley.

If you want to call a guy like Vangundy biased, sure. Hes friends with Thibs after all. Cowley and Woj are just doing their jobs, it's not their fault that Garpax and co like to keep everything under their control.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Thibodeau was A problem. Not the only problem. He was the first problem to be addressed.
Not really, no. Thibs wasn't the problem. The front office was / is.

If he was a problem, one would think you would see improvement once the problem was addressed.


In fact, you've seen the opposite. The team is in free-fall. Identity-less. Rudderless. Leaderless. Lost.

Let's hope Hoiball can take hold and Paxson can right the ship.

The Bulls were a whisper away from knocking off the Cavs last season and very, very close to making the NBA Finals. Same roster this season. Now we're seeing the same roster without Thibs. Ick. Paxson, Forman and Jen Swanson (why so many injuries?) are still collecting paychecks.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
Nobody ever said that, few likely thought that.
He was the only guy to get demonized and smeared by the front office and then fired though.

And now we're left with Paxson and this smoldering mess that without Thibs pulling off his miracles is being exposed.
 

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Jimmy Butler's absence over the next month is going to lower morale even further in Chicago. Get your hard hats on
 

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Not really, no. Thibs wasn't the problem. The front office was / is.

If he was a problem, one would think you would see improvement once the problem was addressed.
There you go again. "THE problem." Nobody is saying that. He was one problem of several.

Things haven't improved because the other problems haven't been adequately addressed. Some of those other problems actually have gotten worse.

Also if Hoiberg does indeed flame out here in the end, that doesn't exempt Thibodeau from blame. It just means the coaching replacement was inadequate.

In fact, you've seen the opposite. The team is in free-fall. Identity-less. Rudderless. Leaderless. Lost.
So in other words, exactly like last season!

Let's hope Hoiball can take hold and Paxson can right the ship.

The Bulls were a whisper away from knocking off the Cavs last season and very, very close to making the NBA Finals. Same roster this season. Now we're seeing the same roster without Thibs. Ick. Paxson, Forman and Jen Swanson (why so many injuries?) are still collecting paychecks.
Did you miss the part where JNR did a rundown of which injuries were wear & tear injuries versus traumatic one-time impact injuries? Not saying Swanson is doing her job well or making a difference, how would I know, but how the heck do you attribute a guy getting a separated shoulder or hyperextended knee to the trainer? Or moreso the team management.

You didn't address my question about Paxson. Why do you put this on Paxson? If you go that far, why not Reinsdorf then? If you blame anyone the most, blame Gar Forman. Gar is running basketball operations. He should be first to go, and then you let Paxson hand pick his replacement, a guy like Matt Lloyd perhaps. Paxson shouldn't get fired for not doing Gar's job for him. That is why Gar was hired into his current position.
 

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Discussion Starter #28 (Edited)
So in other words, exactly like last season!
No, the Bulls were a 50 win team last season and were a Gasol ankle sprain / Lebron missed three away from knocking off a team that went to the Finals. The Exec VP fired the coach partially on the premise that this roster could get to the NBA Finals.

That doesn't appear to be the case this year. We'll see. As it stands right now, they are in danger of not making the playoffs, as improbable as it seems.


Did you miss the part where JNR did a rundown of which injuries were wear & tear injuries versus traumatic one-time impact injuries? Not saying Swanson is doing her job well or making a difference, how would I know, but how the heck do you attribute a guy getting a separated shoulder or hyperextended knee to the trainer? Or moreso the team management.
How do you attribute injuries to the head coach? Plenty were doing that and criticizing Thibs for bristling against the Jen Swanson minutes restrictions, which he abided by.

Meanwhile, Jimmy Butler is allowed to lead the league in minutes this season again with a different coach and now he's out for a month.

If that type of thing was on Thibs last year, why isn't it on Hoiberg this year? Why isn't that the story being fed to Sam Smith and KC Johnson? Because the smear is over.


You didn't address my question about Paxson. Why do you put this on Paxson? If you go that far, why not Reinsdorf then? If you blame anyone the most, blame Gar Forman. Gar is running basketball operations. He should be first to go, and then you let Paxson hand pick his replacement, a guy like Matt Lloyd perhaps. Paxson shouldn't get fired for not doing Gar's job for him. That is why Gar was hired into his current position.
Paxson has been on the job collecting paychecks for 12+ years now.

In that time there has been very little meaningful success.

Paxson failed as a GM absurdly thinking that a core of Hinrich-Gordon-Deng-Nocioni was a contender. Comical in hindsight.

Instead of being held accountable for his failure, he was kicked upstairs and the Gar position was created.

Paxson physically attacked a head coach.
Paxson was the head of an organization that performed a brutal media smear against a good man in Thibs.
Paxson's teams don't accomplish much of note.

I guess at some point you would like to think that people are held accountable for poor performance. Especially after over a decade of collecting paychecks.

On the basketball court, if the goal is to win in a meaningful fashion, the organization Paxson runs has not accomplished much in 12+ (!!!!) years of collecting paychecks. The profits are through the roof though, which of course if the bottom line.

As for Gar, yes, he'll be fired next. That's why the position was created. Paxson tired of explaining away his bad decisions and answering to the media, so a Gar was created. Now Gar will take the fall.

I prefer the job Gar has done as "GM" to the one Paxson did. There have been solid draft picks and some good free agent pickups as well. Also a bit less screwy "right way" / no headband nonsense.

Gar isn't the reason the Bulls organization is a dysfunctional mess. Its higher up than that. And yes, if you were going to do a deep dive in explaining what is actually going on, the Reinsdorfs would be involved as well. Getting rid of Thibs didn't change anything for the better. I doubt getting rid of Gar will either, but as always, we'll see.

Paxson is the VP of BASKETBALL OPERATIONS. The buck stops with him basketball wise. There is also a general counsel/finance guy at Paxson's level it seems. Paxson is the top basketball guy. How is the basketball product looking?

How many Gars does Paxson get? 3?
 

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Why do you always have to include some sort of shot at Thibs whether this stuff comes up lol.

Thibs was only a problem to the egos of the front office. It's crystal clear now that there was no legit basketball reasons for his firing.

You mean like the players wanting him fired and refusing to train in Chicago in the offseason because they couldn't stand to be around Thibs? This is not a legit basketball reason?

It can both be true that the Thibs era had run its course and that Gar has not put together a championship roster. It's not an either or proposition.
 

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Not really, no. Thibs wasn't the problem. The front office was / is.

If he was a problem, one would think you would see improvement once the problem was addressed.
That's actually not true. Even if Thibs needed to go, it's no certainty that Fred was the right guy to replace him. Firing Thibs and hiring Fred can be evaluated separately.

As you've pointed out repeatedly, there's been no indication so far that Fred is doing a better job than Thibs did. It also seems pretty clear his players are not executing his instructions, which is odd. That's something that in my view falls on both the coach and players.

In fact, you've seen the opposite. The team is in free-fall. Identity-less. Rudderless. Leaderless. Lost.

Let's hope Hoiball can take hold and Paxson can right the ship.

The Bulls were a whisper away from knocking off the Cavs last season and very, very close to making the NBA Finals. Same roster this season. Now we're seeing the same roster without Thibs. Ick. Paxson, Forman and Jen Swanson (why so many injuries?) are still collecting paychecks.
It is the same roster, but obviously a much, much less healthy version of it.

I addressed the injury issue earlier and pointed out that the whole Jen Swanson thing is a red herring because what you're talking about this season is acute injuries (and non-injury unavailability like Niko's appendix) that have rendered players unavailable. it has not, by and large, had anything to do with overuse/minutes, which is what I assume Jen Swanson is around to monitor.
 

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Discussion Starter #32

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Discussion Starter #33
Firing Thibs and hiring Fred can be evaluated separately.
Neither have helped. The team is clearly worse off.



As you've pointed out repeatedly, there's been no indication so far that Fred is doing a better job than Thibs did.
Ha! Given the team is almost out of the playoffs, that's pretty clear.

It also seems pretty clear his players are not executing his instructions, which is odd. That's something that in my view falls on both the coach and players.
The Thibs Bulls always fought through injuries to be at least one of the stronger Eastern Conference regular season teams.

Heck, last season the team was a 50 win team that the VP said was strong enough to make the NBA Finals.

This group is a mess.



I addressed the injury issue earlier and pointed out that the whole Jen Swanson thing is a red herring because what you're talking about this season is acute injuries (and non-injury unavailability like Niko's appendix) that have rendered players unavailable. it has not, by and large, had anything to do with overuse/minutes, which is what I assume Jen Swanson is around to monitor.
What about the Butler knee injury?

Why is he leading the league in minutes still once Thibs is gone?

And he got hurt.

If that was on the coach last year while the organization was publicly smearing him during a year where the team had a legit shot to make the Finals, why isn't that on the coach now?

Why don't we even hear about Jen Swanson anymore?

These Bulls are a mess.

Great job Paxson.

12+ years of collecting paychecks.
 

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How do you attribute injuries to the head coach? Plenty were doing that and criticizing Thibs for bristling against the Jen Swanson minutes restrictions, which he abided by.
I wrote a fairly lengthy post discussing the difference between overuse and acute injuries, that you did not address.

It is also false to say that Thibs abided by the minutes restrictions. He did sometimes, and then openly bitched about it to the media (smearing the front office - even though you think the smear job was a one-way affair, despite obvious evidence to the contrary). He also violated minutes restrictions a whole heck of a lot. Sometime last year I actually went through the game logs and totaled up the number of times he blew Noah's minutes limit. It was a lot.

Meanwhile, Jimmy Butler is allowed to lead the league in minutes this season again with a different coach and now he's out for a month.
Again, this is (I think intentionally) ignoring the difference between overuse injuries and acute injuries. Jimmy landing oddly on his knee is not a minutes thing. Tendonitis, plantar fasciitis, etc. would be overuse injuries.

If that type of thing was on Thibs last year, why isn't it on Hoiberg this year? Why isn't that the story being fed to Sam Smith and KC Johnson? Because the smear is over.
Because there is no indication that Hoiberg is managing minutes contrary to his bosses' directives.


Paxson has been on the job collecting paychecks for 12+ years now.

In that time there has been very little meaningful success.

Paxson failed as a GM absurdly thinking that a core of Hinrich-Gordon-Deng-Nocioni was a contender. Comical in hindsight.

Instead of being held accountable for his failure, he was kicked upstairs and the Gar position was created.

Paxson physically attacked a head coach.
Paxson was the head of an organization that performed a brutal media smear against a good man in Thibs.
Paxson's teams don't accomplish much of note.

I guess at some point you would like to think that people are held accountable for poor performance. Especially after over a decade of collecting paychecks.

On the basketball court, if the goal is to win in a meaningful fashion, the organization Paxson runs has not accomplished much in 12+ (!!!!) years of collecting paychecks. The profits are through the roof though, which of course if the bottom line.

As for Gar, yes, he'll be fired next. That's why the position was created. Paxson tired of explaining away his bad decisions and answering to the media, so a Gar was created. Now Gar will take the fall.

I prefer the job Gar has done as "GM" to the one Paxson did. There have been solid draft picks and some good free agent pickups as well. Also a bit less screwy "right way" / no headband nonsense.

Gar isn't the reason the Bulls organization is a dysfunctional mess. Its higher up than that. And yes, if you were going to do a deep dive in explaining what is actually going on, the Reinsdorfs would be involved as well. Getting rid of Thibs didn't change anything for the better. I doubt getting rid of Gar will either, but as always, we'll see.

Paxson is the VP of BASKETBALL OPERATIONS. The buck stops with him basketball wise. There is also a general counsel/finance guy at Paxson's level it seems. Paxson is the top basketball guy. How is the basketball product looking?

How many Gars does Paxson get? 3?

You can obviously make a case that Paxson should be fired, even if your bit about the one-way smear campaign against "good man" Thibs is not entirely honest. But now you're getting into what should happen vs. what is actually possible. Reinsdorf is loyal to his guys to a fault. Your best chance of having Paxson's role reduced/eliminated is probably only through another promotion rather than a firing, like was done with Kenny Williams. Even if you're correct that Pax should go, we've got no reason to believe it's possible, unless Michael Reinsdorf will run things differently than his father.

So yeah, a lot of your issues run right to the top.

It's weird to me that you think this roster sucks and yet praise Gar's tenure as a GM. This is Gar's roster!
 

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Discussion Starter #35
It's weird to me that you think this roster sucks and yet praise Gar's tenure as a GM. This is Gar's roster!
This roster was good enough to be a whisper away from making the Finals last season under Thibs.

Butler is a legit NBA all-star. The Gasol contract and his production are strong. Niko was a 17+ PER guy last season under Thibs. Gibson is a stout 4.

"They have enough." At least when Thibs was coaching them. At least to be one of the stronger teams in the East.

Its funny, when Thibs was the coach, injuries would happen and the team would power through them.

"Next man up."

Under Hoiball, its "wahhh injuries" as an excuse for not making the playoffs. This is with a VP-Basketball Ops whose initial expression was "no excuses."

Mr "no excuses" has been collecting paychecks for 12+ years now with little meaningful success. These have been TONS of excuses.
 

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Discussion Starter #36
Even if you're correct that Pax should go, we've got no reason to believe it's possible, unless Michael Reinsdorf will run things differently than his father.
We do know that a Reinsforf run team and win multiple NBA championships and a World Series though, so that doesn't seem to be a limiting factor.

You do need the right people calling the shots though.
 

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Discussion Starter #37
Because there is no indication that Hoiberg is managing minutes contrary to his bosses' directives.
Is there any indication that the bosses know what they are talking about on this front?

Thibs is gone and there are TONS of injuries. Butler was still leading the league in MPG. Old man Gasol is still logging heavy minutes in a very un-Popovich like manner.

Why don't we hear about minutes restrictions anymore?

Was that an actual thing, or just a way to smear Thibs?
 

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This roster was good enough to be a whisper away from making the Finals last season under Thibs.

Butler is a legit NBA all-star. The Gasol contract and his production are strong. Niko was a 17+ PER guy last season under Thibs. Gibson is a stout 4.

"They have enough." At least when Thibs was coaching them. At least to be one of the stronger teams in the East.

Its funny, when Thibs was the coach, injuries would happen and the team would power through them.

"Next man up."

Under Hoiball, its "wahhh injuries" as an excuse for not making the playoffs. This is with a VP-Basketball Ops whose initial expression was "no excuses."

Mr "no excuses" has been collecting paychecks for 12+ years now with little meaningful success. These have been TONS of excuses.

So, you think this is a championship-level roster, essentially? Your only criticism, then, is of the head coach that was hired/prior coach firing?
 

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Discussion Starter #39
So, you think this is a championship-level roster, essentially? Your only criticism, then, is of the head coach that was hired/prior coach firing?
The VP-Basketball Ops said he was disappointed that this roster didn't make the Finals last year.

This team was a 50 win team last year that was a Gasol ankle spring / Lebron 3 away from having a clear path to the Finals.

Obviously if the question is "can they beat the Warriors" the answer is likely no.

But then why are they trying to "win now" with Gasol in the first place?
 

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The VP-Basketball Ops said he was disappointed that this roster didn't make the Finals last year.

This team was a 50 win team last year that was a Gasol ankle spring / Lebron 3 away from having a clear path to the Finals.

Obviously if the question is "can they beat the Warriors" the answer is likely no.

But then why are they trying to "win now" with Gasol in the first place?

Because 29 teams can't be tanking simultaneously.

The Jordan Bulls were basically unbeatable during their peak run. Does that mean the correct call for every other NBA team was to tank? Wins and losses are a zero-sum game. It just doesn't work the way you suggest.
 
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