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do better
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Discussion Starter #1
Sure he's a top 5 player, but my big question is:

Can he really be a winner by himself?

When Shaq is out, you all know that the Laker's record stinks. He takes a whole lot more shots, gets his 40, but they almost never win. I think for the most part, teams (with cap space) will look at him this season while the two bigs are out to see if he can really carry a team. (Though, even if they go on a 10 game losing streak, he'll still be probably the most heavily recruited Free Agent ever.)

He, IMO, is coming dangerously close to Shareef Abdur-Rahim range (Nice Stats but loses....). For the average player, they'd already be considered that, with the record he has by himself, but for Kobe, with 3 rings, noone brings it up.

I'm not insulting him just yet, so don't come at me like I'm another Kobe hater, but it's always something in the back of my mind as I'm reading the paper (when Shaq is out of course.)
 

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Sure, but you have to have players around that fit to his strengths and play well w/ him. For past years, Laker role players are built around shaq, guys who hang around the perimeter and wait to shoot a 3.

George and Slava fit well w/ Kobe, but the rest of the team (save for malone and payton this year) are jut guys who are expected to wait around for passes until they get a wide open 3.
 

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I'm skeptical about his ability to be a leader... he plays hard, but he seems to be sort of a freelancer on the court and his attitude can be kind of defiant and immature. He will have to make big steps forward in his game to really be "the man" on a team and experience success. Right now, when he "does his thing," it tends to come at the expense of the game plan and teamwork.
 

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Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
I'm skeptical about his ability to be a leader... he plays hard, but he seems to be sort of a freelancer on the court and his attitude can be kind of defiant and immature. He will have to make big steps forward in his game to really be "the man" on a team and experience success. Right now, when he "does his thing," it tends to come at the expense of the game plan and teamwork.
I completely agree with this...

Kobe is accostumed playing second-fiddle, so he doesn´t tend to concentrate much in following the game plan and involve the guys, but in scoring his points (preferably in someoné face).

His apg averages in the last years doesn´t mean much to me, due to the awfull amount of time he spends with the ball...

I would say Kobe should have to mature a little (or more...) to even PRETEND to be a true leader... And his demeanour doesn´t help, for he is a little shy and egotistical...
 

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kiss my grits
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I dont think you can judge him for that on this team. If he did go to his own team and had the poor record then yes, but the way LA is structured, I dont think it is fair to judge him on the losing there as far as his ability to be the man.
 

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Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
I dont think you can judge him for that on this team. If he did go to his own team and had the poor record then yes, <b>but the way LA is structured, I dont think it is fair to judge him on the losing there as far as his ability to be the man. </b>
I agree.
 

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The Lakers without Malone and Shaq are only a little better than the Magic.

I think Kobe and T-Mac are on the same level. If you're going to build around either of them you need to take a long hard look at the type of team that the Bulls put around Michael Jordan.

The best situation as I see it, would be if Kobe went to the Clippers or Suns. Both of those teams have guys who can play the 3(Marion being the most pippen-like), both teams have solid 4's(Brand being the best of all worlds) and the Clips have a nice center but not a Shaq type center.

The Lakers aren't structured around Kobe so it looks even worse when he tries to take over.

To me though, this should tell you that Shaq, KG, and Tim Duncan are top 3 and there's a big gap between 3 and 4.
 

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Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
The Lakers without Malone and Shaq are only a little better than the Magic.

I think Kobe and T-Mac are on the same level. If you're going to build around either of them you need to take a long hard look at the type of team that the Bulls put around Michael Jordan.

The best situation as I see it, would be if Kobe went to the Clippers or Suns. Both of those teams have guys who can play the 3(Marion being the most pippen-like), both teams have solid 4's(Brand being the best of all worlds) and the Clips have a nice center but not a Shaq type center.

The Lakers aren't structured around Kobe so it looks even worse when he tries to take over.

To me though, this should tell you that Shaq, KG, and Tim Duncan are top 3 and there's a big gap between 3 and 4.
I agree with you, I am one of those that believe Kobe and Tmac are on pretty much the exact same level. It would be interesting to see them both be able to go out with the exact same supporting cast and see what each could do.

But I think judging Kobe on the Lakers with Shaq and Malone out and his personal life in worse turmoil than most of us could ever imagine is just unfair. I cant imagine waking everyday knowing maybe a year from now I could be going to prison for years. Must be tough.
 

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The only problem I have with these arguments is that when people take Shaq away from Kobe, they don't add anyone of value period (i.e. Divac, Jermaine O'Neal or any other solid/great big man).

They expect Kobe to take crap like Horace Grant and Samaki Walker and turn them into Chris Webber. Doesn't work like that people.

Then when you have Shaq and they take away Kobe they always want to replace him with someone of equal value or close to (i.e. VC, T-Mac, Ray Allen)

If Kobe was out all year, I doubt the Lakers would win a title, just like if Shaq was out the Lakers wouldn't win a title. I don't know why people question if Kobe can be the man when you take out a 25 ppg hulk who eats up all the salary cap and think you can build a capable team around a swingman and a bunch of junk. Not going to happen.
 

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do better
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Discussion Starter #11
Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
The only problem I have with these arguments is that when people take Shaq away from Kobe, they don't add anyone of value period (i.e. Divac, Jermaine O'Neal or any other solid/great big man).

They expect Kobe to take crap like Horace Grant and Samaki Walker and turn them into Chris Webber. Doesn't work like that people.

Then when you have Shaq and they take away Kobe they always want to replace him with someone of equal value or close to (i.e. VC, T-Mac, Ray Allen)

If Kobe was out all year, I doubt the Lakers would win a title, just like if Shaq was out the Lakers wouldn't win a title. I don't know why people question if Kobe can be the man when you take out a 25 ppg hulk who eats up all the salary cap and think you can build a capable team around a swingman and a bunch of junk. Not going to happen.
That doesn't have anything to do with being the man. The Man doesn't need Chris Webber by his side, because he can win by himself. When I say the man, I mean the # 1 option, the virtual owner of the team. And I don't see Kobe in that mode if people keep talking about putting him with another great player.
 

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That'll do Pigley...
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Originally posted by <b>dre1218us</b>!


That doesn't have anything to do with being the man. The Man doesn't need Chris Webber by his side, because he can win by himself. When I say the man, I mean the # 1 option, the virtual owner of the team. And I don't see Kobe in that mode if people keep talking about putting him with another great player.
Name how many guys are the MAN by themselves that have ended in a championship. Hello genius, Shaq had no titles until you put him with a great player, NONE.

Even Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon and Michael Jordan had help on the way to a title.

Let me guess if the Nets would have won the title last year, it would have been won by Jason Kidd being the man only right? :rolleyes:

But I am going to bow out of this thread now and let it turn into another Kobe bashing thread, under the guise of just wanting some info. :sleep:
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!


Name how many guys are the MAN by themselves that have ended in a championship. Hello genius, Shaq had no titles until you put him with a great player, NONE.

Even Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon and Michael Jordan had help on the way to a title.

Let me guess if the Nets would have won the title last year, it would have been won by Jason Kidd being the man only right? :rolleyes:

But I am going to bow out of this thread now and let it turn into another Kobe bashing thread, under the guise of just wanting some info. :sleep:

Read: Role-Players, not 1-2 punches.

All that stuff you said may be valid, but it doesn't answer the question. I'm talking about him being the man. MJ and Scottie could be one of the exceptions, but with a lot of "Men", there wasn't a guy who was nearly the player the other was. Was Manu on Tim Duncan's level? No.

I'm talking about carrying the team, as in being the # 1 man, the person who gets the brunt of the load (while actually winning games). Which all those guys did. Without Shaquille O'neal.
 

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That'll do Pigley...
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Manu isn't on Duncan's level but D-Rob, Manu and Parker sure are above the avg. talent level of role players.

Does Kobe get those kind of role players or even the Bucks or Suns role players or does he get the Knicks and Lakers cap strapped junk of role players?

I believe he gets the junk according to this thread right?
 

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You give Kobe a group of young guys who will follow him and he will lead them.

You take Shaq's 30mil/year salary and sign some talented players with that, and Kobe will lead them.

You put Kobe on the Clippers and that team would have a better record with Kobe leading them than Kobe trying to lead the crew he has in LA when Shaq and Malone are out.

You put Kobe on the Suns or Grizz and you would have the exact same outcome.

NO ONE PLAYER HAS EVER WON A TITLE ALONE.

That's fact people. None. I dont care how great you are, you are not going to win a title alone.

Great players like Magic was surrounded by hall of famers like Big game James and Jabbar. He also played with the likes of Cooper,Scott,Green,Rambis. Some of the greatest role players EVER. Yet you rarely hear anyone trying to diminish his greatness because he played with all those great players. The way some of you continue to try to diminish Kobe's because he plays with Shaq. Shaq does not make Kobe's game. Period.

Same can be said for Bird. He played with Mchale, Parrish,DJ and Walton.

West played with Elgin and Wilt.

Jordan played with Pippen,Grant,Rodman,Kukoc and Harper.

Duncan had Robinson,Manu,Rose,Parker.

Dream had Smith,Cassell,Horry,Maxwell and Thorpe.

Just as another poster stated in this thread. Is Kobe going to have that calibar of player? Or is he going to have

Fisher,Walker,Fox,Slava,Madsen and Pargo.

No disrespect. But please get a clue. Kobe Bryant is GREAT player. One with the ability to lead if given the chance. One with the ability to be "the man" if given the chance. One with the ability to win and win big, just as the other all time greats IF HE'S GIVEN THE HELP. Not too hard to understand.
 

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Kobe can be the MAN if his team were built for him to "be the Man". However, this Laker team is built for him to just be a secondary figure. This team is built so that all that is really asked of Kobe is setting others up, playing D, and closing games out. So, when Kobe explodes it's because others are not pulling their own weight.

I think if Kobe were on say the Clippers, they'd be a Championship contender.

I agree about McGrady and Kobe being equals on offense. However, I think that the only difference between them is Kobe is more intense on D and in general. Kobe's more likely to dive for the looseball than McGrady. For example, Last year's ASG. Kobe and McGrady were chasing down a looseball in one of the Overtimes. It looked like the ball would go out of bounds, so McGrady game up on the ball at about halfcourt. Kobe didn't and got the looseball and saved it into Steve Nash who picked up an easy layup. This was a very good example of that Intensity and intangibles that Kobe has that McGrady doesn't.
 

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I think if Kobe were on say the Clippers, they'd be a Championship contender.
I agree with everything else you said but this. The Clippers would be much better, but certainly not championship contenders. You think they could win with Marko Jaric/Doug Overton at PG and Chris Kaman/Predrag Drobjnak at C?

Anyway, I think if Kobe went to the right situation he could carry a team.
 

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Originally posted by <b>KokoTheMonkey</b>!


I agree with everything else you said but this. The Clippers would be much better, but certainly not championship contenders. You think they could win with Marko Jaric/Doug Overton at PG and Chris Kaman/Predrag Drobjnak at C?

Anyway, I think if Kobe went to the right situation he could carry a team.
Jaric would not start at point guard Kobe would.

The Clippers would have

Kobe
Richardson
Maggette
Brand
Kaman
 

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Dang, you changed it off of Elgin and Baylor. lol

Charlotte, Atlanta, Washington if they count, etc. are not going to get Kobe. He'll have a somewhat functioning club around him, especially the Suns with Amare and Marion. Memphis has good players at each position, and they're sure to have Pau to work with.

So let's just take it slow. No title for now. Can Kobe lead a winning, playoff level team? For whatever reason, Shaq-less Lakers have really stuggled, even with Kobe. Even with last year's Kobe.

I have (well, had) a hunch if Kobe joined Memphis somehow, he's raise his scoring average but only be about a 7th seed. With his body and head straight. With Phoenix it might be more successful, especially if they draft a (very) big man.

So we'll have to see.
 
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