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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
If you're gonna criticize Jefferson for 44% shooting for 6 games, then criticize Carter for shooting 43% for the entire season.

For those that actually care about the Nets as a team, here is the impact:

Jefferson averaged 6.2-14.0 for 44% shooting over the last 6 games. Therefore, he is missing 7.8 shots per game. In basketball, the standard for FG% is 50%. Therefore, he is 0.8 made shots short of making the standard, which means he is costing the Nets 1.6 points per game over the past 6 games.

Carter averages 8.5-19.5 for 43% shooting over the last 75 games. Therefore, he is missing 11.5 shots per game. In basketball, the stnadard for FG% is 50%. Therefore, he is 1.3 made shots short of making the standard, which means he is costing the Nets 2.6 points per game over the past 75 games.

This may not seem like a big deal, but remember, for the season, Jefferson is shooting 50% so if you compare 75 games to 75 games, Jefferson is not costing the Nets any points. The difference in that case would be 2.6 points.

Granted, this doesn't take into account such factors as foul shots taken/converted or 3 pointers. However, the original comment by Purplehaze89 was about FG% and just FG% so I limited my response to that.
 

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Well.. I don't want to sound as the Vince homers, but..

There is a huge difference.. Vince Carter sometimes creates his shots, while Richard Jefferson get the open looks and lay ups at fastbreaks...

I doubt that RJ would be at the 50% mark, if he was the Go-To-Guy...
 

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First of all..SMH at this thread.

Secondly,
furnace said:
In basketball, the stnadard for FG% is 50%.
Not for perimeter players. I guarantee you that if you look at the top 15-20 scorers in the league, only a few are shooting over 50%. And those are the power forwards and centers that spend most of their time inside the key. Obviously being closer to the basket results in higher shooting %.

So how many points is J. Kidd costing the Nets since he's only shooting 40%? :rolleyes:
 

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Man this board has been on some civil war thing for a while lol.

But anyways,I'm not a blind VC homer but RJ would cringe if he faced the coverage that VC gets.
In 2 years,I think he'll be able to handle it.
 

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furnace said:
If you're gonna criticize Jefferson for 44% shooting for 6 games, then criticize Carter for shooting 43% for the entire season.

For those that actually care about the Nets as a team, here is the impact:

Jefferson averaged 6.2-14.0 for 44% shooting over the last 6 games. Therefore, he is missing 7.8 shots per game. In basketball, the standard for FG% is 50%. Therefore, he is 0.8 made shots short of making the standard, which means he is costing the Nets 1.6 points per game over the past 6 games.

Carter averages 8.5-19.5 for 43% shooting over the last 75 games. Therefore, he is missing 11.5 shots per game. In basketball, the stnadard for FG% is 50%. Therefore, he is 1.3 made shots short of making the standard, which means he is costing the Nets 2.6 points per game over the past 75 games.

This may not seem like a big deal, but remember, for the season, Jefferson is shooting 50% so if you compare 75 games to 75 games, Jefferson is not costing the Nets any points. The difference in that case would be 2.6 points.

Granted, this doesn't take into account such factors as foul shots taken/converted or 3 pointers. However, the original comment by Phenom was about FG% and just FG% so I limited my response to that.

[strike]YOU ARE INCREDIBLY STUPID AND SIMPLE MINDED. GO ROOT FOR THE NUGGETS OR KNICKS YOU LOSER[/strike]
 

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Nets1524512 said:
[strike]YOU ARE INCREDIBLY STUPID AND SIMPLE MINDED. GO ROOT FOR THE NUGGETS OR KNICKS YOU LOSER[/strike]
Come on.. No need to pull that off...

If you don't agree with the poster, or even thinks that he is a jerk, you have 2 options:

Post your arguments why you think he is wrong

or

Ignore the thread.

Calling others losers and worse, takes this forum one step closer to the NBA General level..- and I just don't want that..
 

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furnace said:
Carter averages 8.5-19.5 for 43% shooting over the last 75 games. Therefore, he is missing 11.5 shots per game. In basketball, the stnadard for FG% is 50%. Therefore, he is 1.3 made shots short of making the standard, which means he is costing the Nets 2.6 points per game over the past 75 games.
Actually 8.5 out of 19.5 is 11.0 not 11.5. Geez get your math right. Just kidding.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
neoxsupreme said:
Actually 8.5 out of 19.5 is 11.0 not 11.5. Geez get your math right. Just kidding.

Sorry, I was off by .5. The computation is based on 50% of 19.5, which is 9.75, which makes him 1.25 field goals short of 50%. I rounded 1.25 to 1.3. It's a difference of 0.1 when multiplied by 2 points per field goal.


The point of my post is to be consistent. Sefan Nellemoes, you bring up a good point. RJ's life is of course made easier by the presence of Vince Carter. Now, if Vince gave up some of his shots and RJ gained them, yes, eventually, defenses will double Carter less and double RJ more. Basically, defensive attention will move towards equilibrium. That's when the Nets will be at maximum efficiency. Part of the equation is to give Kristic more shots as well. Vince's reduced shots should be spread out to Kristic as well as Jefferson.

As you can see, I am measuring defensive attention with shots taken, based on the simple basketball principle that the more open you are, the more likely you will and SHOULD take AND MAKE a shot.

Now, because of Vince's talent, they will never pay equal attention to Vince, RJ, and Kristic. Basically, the equilibrium point is not 33% shots for each player. If defenses distribute their attention equally, Vince will have the advantage 1 on 1. Let's say the spread is 40% 30% 30%. That 10% difference in defensive attention means that RJ or Kristic are unguarded or left 1 on 1 (if the defenses are doubling Vince with Collins' or Kidd's man), RJ and Kristic still have the advantage. Would you rather have RJ or Kristic vs 1 defender, Collins or Kidd vs 0 defenders, or Vince vs 2 defenders?

The answer should be clear: NOT Vince (or any other player) vs 2 defenders. The other 4 players still have a better chance at scoring than Vince (well maybe not Collins). This in turns means that if you agree that Vince gets a disporportionately greater amount of defensive attention, he should take less shots. The overall goal is to get the team FG% as close to 50% as possible. Not only does more made shots mean more points, it means less opportunities for the opposite team.
 

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furnace said:
If you're gonna criticize Jefferson for 44% shooting for 6 games, then criticize Carter for shooting 43% for the entire season.

For those that actually care about the Nets as a team, here is the impact:

Jefferson averaged 6.2-14.0 for 44% shooting over the last 6 games. Therefore, he is missing 7.8 shots per game. In basketball, the standard for FG% is 50%. Therefore, he is 0.8 made shots short of making the standard, which means he is costing the Nets 1.6 points per game over the past 6 games.

Carter averages 8.5-19.5 for 43% shooting over the last 75 games. Therefore, he is missing 11.5 shots per game. In basketball, the stnadard for FG% is 50%. Therefore, he is 1.3 made shots short of making the standard, which means he is costing the Nets 2.6 points per game over the past 75 games.

This may not seem like a big deal, but remember, for the season, Jefferson is shooting 50% so if you compare 75 games to 75 games, Jefferson is not costing the Nets any points. The difference in that case would be 2.6 points.

Granted, this doesn't take into account such factors as foul shots taken/converted or 3 pointers. However, the original comment by Phenom was about FG% and just FG% so I limited my response to that.
I think the analysis is a little simplistic, but it is a fair point. I could rephrase the question as: Just how valuable is Allan Iverson?--something Sixer fans have long been trying to figure out. But the bottom line is that, even when he is shooting horribly, the nets play better with Carter than without him. Surely, then, Carter has a greater impact on the game then his shooting percentage would suggest. We can all come up with reasons, such as drawing the defenders and opening lanes for RJ, etc., but bottom line is that stats like PPG and "efficiency" are just a piece of the puzzle, not the whole story. To me, examing how 4- and 5-man units play together (compared to other combinations with many of the same players) gets closer to the truth.
 

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Nets wins: ~4.9 Assists per game
Nets loses: ~3.8 Assists per game

With the season closing in a few games, those should remain the figures on the season.

-Petey
 

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furnace said:
If you're gonna criticize Jefferson for 44% shooting for 6 games, then criticize Carter for shooting 43% for the entire season.

For those that actually care about the Nets as a team, here is the impact:

Jefferson averaged 6.2-14.0 for 44% shooting over the last 6 games. Therefore, he is missing 7.8 shots per game. In basketball, the standard for FG% is 50%. Therefore, he is 0.8 made shots short of making the standard, which means he is costing the Nets 1.6 points per game over the past 6 games.

Carter averages 8.5-19.5 for 43% shooting over the last 75 games. Therefore, he is missing 11.5 shots per game. In basketball, the stnadard for FG% is 50%. Therefore, he is 1.3 made shots short of making the standard, which means he is costing the Nets 2.6 points per game over the past 75 games.

This may not seem like a big deal, but remember, for the season, Jefferson is shooting 50% so if you compare 75 games to 75 games, Jefferson is not costing the Nets any points. The difference in that case would be 2.6 points.

Granted, this doesn't take into account such factors as foul shots taken/converted or 3 pointers. However, the original comment by Phenom was about FG% and just FG% so I limited my response to that.
Original comment by who?? Why must my name always be brought up for stuff I never said in the first place?

Either way, I think you missed the freaking point with that other person's thread. It was in response to everyone getting on Vince Carter for his "poor" play to begin with. It was a retaliation of sorts. If you're gunna call Vince Carter's shooting bad, then you gotta say the same about RJ. So really this thread is just redundant.

Petey said:
Nets wins: ~4.9 Assists per game
Nets loses: ~3.8 Assists per game

With the season closing in a few games, those should remain the figures on the season.

-Petey
Maybe Vince is still passing the same amount but guys are just converting off of them one more time in wins as compared to losses?
 

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PHeNoM Z28 said:
Maybe Vince is still passing the same amount but guys are just converting off of them one more time in wins as compared to losses?
Very true, could be. But averages factor highs and lows. There were loses where he had higher assist totals like last night with 6, then there are of course numbers from the other side of the average... Same for situations in wins, when I was adding up the numbers, I recall the Nets winning 1 game where Carter didn't have an assist, and 2 games where he had 10. Over a full season, don't think that is a worthy indicator?

-Petey
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
PHeNoM Z28 said:
Original comment by who?? Why must my name always be brought up for stuff I never said in the first place?

Either way, I think you missed the freaking point with that other person's thread. It was in response to everyone getting on Vince Carter for his "poor" play to begin with. It was a retaliation of sorts. If you're gunna call Vince Carter's shooting bad, then you gotta say the same about RJ. So really this thread is just redundant.


Maybe Vince is still passing the same amount but guys are just converting off of them one more time in wins as compared to losses?

I apologize, it was Purplehaze89 and not Phenom. I guess you're right, the Vince homers were waiting for this opportunity to pounce on RJ. Even if it is an apples to oranges comparison, where these are only 6 games at 44% compared versus Vince's 75 at 43%.


As far as your second point, that is why I am not basing my argument on assist numbers. Alot of times great passers like Kidd and Magic make the pass before the assist...they can see 2 steps ahead. Carter has great passing ability, and I am confident that he is able to see 2 steps ahead sometimes as well.

What I'm talking about is to decide to pass and use that great ability, instead of shooting fade aways, over double teams, or other low percentage shots (that for him might be medium percentage shots).

Dumpy you are right, it is a bit simplistic, I even mention some of the constraints/shortcomings in the bottom of my post. But I am just trying to make a simple point in a short amount of time without having to do too much research since I am at work right now. Your analysis in the past has been extremely robust and useful, albeit over the head/beyond the comprehension of many on this board. The fact that some here still believe Jeff McInnis can help the Nets in the playoffs and should be on the active roster is just sad.
 

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furnace said:
I apologize, it was Purplehaze89 and not Phenom. I guess you're right, the Vince homers were waiting for this opportunity to pounce on RJ. Even if it is an apples to oranges comparison, where these are only 6 games at 44% compared versus Vince's 75 at 43%.


As far as your second point, that is why I am not basing my argument on assist numbers. Alot of times great passers like Kidd and Magic make the pass before the assist...they can see 2 steps ahead. Carter has great passing ability, and I am confident that he is able to see 2 steps ahead sometimes as well.

What I'm talking about is to decide to pass and use that great ability, instead of shooting fade aways, over double teams, or other low percentage shots (that for him might be medium percentage shots).

Dumpy you are right, it is a bit simplistic, I even mention some of the constraints/shortcomings in the bottom of my post. But I am just trying to make a simple point in a short amount of time without having to do too much research since I am at work right now. Your analysis in the past has been extremely robust and useful, albeit over the head/beyond the comprehension of many on this board. The fact that some here still believe Jeff McInnis can help the Nets in the playoffs and should be on the active roster is just sad.
right, the thing that we can't measure mathematically is whether taking those low-percentage fadeaways will lead to higher percentage shots later in the game, and so they are not "wasted." That might not be the case late in games when Vince falls in love with his jumper--in those situations, there may not be as many hidden benefits. Still, though, I wouldn't try to change him--if he wants to take those shots, I'm happy to trust his judgment. I think the problems occur when the other players all expect him to take those shots, too, and just stand around and watch him!
 
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furnace said:
If you're gonna criticize Jefferson for 44% shooting for 6 games, then criticize Carter for shooting 43% for the entire season.

For those that actually care about the Nets as a team, here is the impact:

Jefferson averaged 6.2-14.0 for 44% shooting over the last 6 games. Therefore, he is missing 7.8 shots per game. In basketball, the standard for FG% is 50%. Therefore, he is 0.8 made shots short of making the standard, which means he is costing the Nets 1.6 points per game over the past 6 games.

Carter averages 8.5-19.5 for 43% shooting over the last 75 games. Therefore, he is missing 11.5 shots per game. In basketball, the stnadard for FG% is 50%. Therefore, he is 1.3 made shots short of making the standard, which means he is costing the Nets 2.6 points per game over the past 75 games.

This may not seem like a big deal, but remember, for the season, Jefferson is shooting 50% so if you compare 75 games to 75 games, Jefferson is not costing the Nets any points. The difference in that case would be 2.6 points.

Granted, this doesn't take into account such factors as foul shots taken/converted or 3 pointers. However, the original comment by Purplehaze89 was about FG% and just FG% so I limited my response to that.

*yawn*. some people on this board are such little girls. Anyway, get over it. I didn't even mention Carter in that other thread until the Band of Mods came running in because one of them was being criticized. Grow up.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Dumpy said:
right, the thing that we can't measure mathematically is whether taking those low-percentage fadeaways will lead to higher percentage shots later in the game, and so they are not "wasted." That might not be the case late in games when Vince falls in love with his jumper--in those situations, there may not be as many hidden benefits. Still, though, I wouldn't try to change him--if he wants to take those shots, I'm happy to trust his judgment. I think the problems occur when the other players all expect him to take those shots, too, and just stand around and watch him!

The standing around happens to some extent, but that is also a product of 2 things: Vince consistently not passing at the end of games, and Lawrence Frank consistently running plays for Vince at the end of games. It's like training a dog...do a certain thing enough times in a row and the dog will expect it to keep happening. Both Lawrence Frank and Vince have to mix it up at the end of games. Not only for the sake of teamates, but for the sake of not playing into the hands of the defense that will concentrate on Vince. Just look at the Bulls game where RJ was open at the 3pt line but Kidd kept waiting for Carter, even though he was clearly being smothered.

You have to keep the defenses honest. If Vince is being smothered, I would rather take my chances with an open RJ. On top of that, the refs have been very anti-Nets and you can't count on Vince getting a foul call.
 
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