Professional and College Basketball Forums banner

1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
China is way behind the elite soccer power. True.

But had Sun and Fan not injured themselves in the first game, China will definitely put up a better fight. Fan's sub Dei Wu is good, but he's raw and was taken apart by world class strikers. I screamed when I saw Sun was replaced by Xu. He sucks. Fair and square.

China needs to export more players, and STOP modeling their game after the English Premier League!! The English didn't win a damn thing in more than 45 yrs for a good reason! And they're NOT going to win anything until they wake up and smell the Brazilian cocoa. Look at the Japanese and Saudis, they model their game after the Brazilians and their soccer improved dramatically in the last 10 yrs.

They're heading in the right direction. Young guys like Li Tie, Li Weifeng, Dei Wu, etc needs to play aboard. They'll catch up. It may take the next generation to do so, but they'll eventually. And who knows, they may even win a WC before Spain or Holland does.

And lastly, Bora gets results. He doesn't teach young players. He just get results. If you want a mentor, go for someone like Menotti or Van Gaal.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
388 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Originally posted by bebop
China is way behind the elite soccer power. True.

But had Sun and Fan not injured themselves in the first game, China will definitely put up a better fight. Fan's sub Dei Wu is good, but he's raw and was taken apart by world class strikers. I screamed when I saw Sun was replaced by Xu. He sucks. Fair and square.

China needs to export more players, and STOP modeling their game after the English Premier League!! The English didn't win a damn thing in more than 45 yrs for a good reason! And they're NOT going to win anything until they wake up and smell the Brazilian cocoa. Look at the Japanese and Saudis, they model their game after the Brazilians and their soccer improved dramatically in the last 10 yrs.

They're heading in the right direction. Young guys like Li Tie, Li Weifeng, Dei Wu, etc needs to play aboard. They'll catch up. It may take the next generation to do so, but they'll eventually. And who knows, they may even win a WC before Spain or Holland does.

And lastly, Bora gets results. He doesn't teach young players. He just get results. If you want a mentor, go for someone like Menotti or Van Gaal.
Fan's sub is Du Wei.He is young.
another young forward Qu Bo is just a faster player.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Yeah, I read. And Sun is moving up to the Premier League with Man City. I may have to start watching English soccer now.....

But I don't think the Brits know how to nurture young foreign players. As least not as well as the French and Dutch. IMO.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
41 Posts
Van Gaal????

Wow, you really want a national coach to teach your players something? I don't think that that's what a national coach is good for. He has to create excellent work conditions to prepare his players for a good result. As Van Gaal showed when he coached the Dutch NT, he's a good club coach, but not a good national coach. The best way to improve is gradually improving the foundation of the Chinese leagues. The infrastructure is way behind European standards (just look at a stadium in the Dutch league and you know what I am saying, and that in a country with just 16 million inhabitants!) and so is the coaching staff. They should get Wiel Coerver to China and let him make a foundation for the youth (we all know that talent development starts with youth). His coaching and training material is very very good. With his material he made internationals of scrubs. When he coached NEC (a very mediocre club in the Dutch League, which never produces internationals) twenty to thirty years ago, he made a international of the mediocre player named Van Kooten. His material is just based on technique.

And technique is the foundation of whole soccer. You can be just as big, fast and strong, but if you don't have the correct technique. These features will not bring you much further. And with technique I don't just mean dribbling through three opponents, but also the technique to pass the ball with the correct speed at the correct time on the right foot of your teammate. And also having total ball control, something that a lot of players nowadays lack. When I was preparing myself for the next season I used his stuff and after a month (I did it once a week!) I had much more confidence and my technique was never at a higher level. But you have to work work work and that's a thing that Chinese players will do (instead of all those socalled starplayers in Europe.). I think the mentality of the Chinese is better and with the proper guidance China could develop in a superb soccercountry. The potential is, just like in the states of Brazil, enormous. Look what Hiddink had done with the Koreans.

Mzzls,

The Big Easy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
298 Posts
Originally posted by bebop
Yeah, I read. And Sun is moving up to the Premier League with Man City. I may have to start watching English soccer now.....

But I don't think the Brits know how to nurture young foreign players. As least not as well as the French and Dutch. IMO.
Sun won't ever play for Man City. One of worst teams in Premiership!

English clubs have lots of young foreign talent. Look at arsenal, Henry, Vieira 2 of France's best players joined arsenal when they were young and not well known. Now they are 2 of the best players in the world.

French and Dutch leagues are poor and none of the teams from there would compare to top english teams IMO
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
41 Posts
Of course the French and Dutch league are inferior to the English league, but who said they are at the same level?

The only league that could compare, and favourably so, is the Spanish league.

mzzls,

The Big Easy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Originally posted by Mulk


Sun won't ever play for Man City. One of worst teams in Premiership!

English clubs have lots of young foreign talent. Look at arsenal, Henry, Vieira 2 of France's best players joined arsenal when they were young and not well known. Now they are 2 of the best players in the world.

French and Dutch leagues are poor and none of the teams from there would compare to top english teams IMO
True, English club have young foreign talent, but how many found success outside of England??

Juninho? Anelka? Flo? Petit? The list goes on…

Look at how “well” Rebrov is doing in England.

The Brits mold the youngster to the English style, but the end result is usually the young lads are so modified to the Premier League that they can’t adapt to other style or have trouble with the more calculating continental style.

In fact, how many Brits have success outside of their own backyard? Anwser? One --Steve McManaman. That’s it. And McManaman was sometimes criticized for not being “British” enough during his time in England.

I consider the Premier League a dead zone for young foreign talent. PSV help Romario and Ronaldo on their way. And they’re doing a fine job with Ono. The French routinely develop youngsters that go on to greater and greener things.

The English?? Who did they nurture?? Hmm….. Steve McManaman??

Will Li Tie and Li Weifeng benefit by playing in the Premier League? Yes.

But not as much as they would have in the French or Dutch league.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Re: Van Gaal????

Originally posted by TheBigEasy
As Van Gaal showed when he coached the Dutch NT, he's a good club coach, but not a good national coach.

And technique is the foundation of whole soccer. You can be just as big, fast and strong, but if you don't have the correct technique.

That is exactly why I think Van Gaal is good for China, not that he'll ever coach China, but what if.

Remember who coached Seedorf, Davids, Overmars, Kluivert, the De Boer twins, Van Der Sar, and many others during Ajax's golden period? You know this, Van Gaal.

Technique? Yes, the Van Gaal system is all about technique. Considering China failed to link defense, midfield, and offense; Van Gaal's concept of possession soccer will open eyes in China.

And yes, I agree that technique is the most important. And yes, China really needs to raise the level of their league. And yes, the Dutch is the master at producing so much talent with thin resource.

And who is at the forefront in Dutch soccer??

Van Gaal.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
41 Posts
to bebop

Wow, I think you're missing my point dude. Of course Van Gaal had a very big part in the development of all the young Ajax players and I already said that he's a good club coach/trainer, but he needs his players every day around him to make them better. So, he could be an ideal person to develop the foundation of Chinese soccer (like a manager or something or just as a clubcoach at one of the best teams), but not as a NT coach, cuz than he doesn't have his players surrounding him all day long, so he isn't able to make them better, cuz a NT coach has his players just a couple a weeks a year surrounding him. But then again I would prefer Coerver as "foundationmanager" than Van Gaal. He isn't as popular and well-known as Van Gaal to this generation, but he has done a lot for soccer without a lot of people knowing it, and that's because he didn't coach big clubs recently (he won the European Cup I, the equivalent of nowadays Champions League, with Feyenoord, but that's a while ago).

But Coerver is a wellknown name in soccer-development countries like Qatar, the United Arab Emirates and so on. A lot of his co-workers in these countries say that he's, qua popularity, on almost the same level as Cruijf is. And some of his co-workers have found employee on all kind of levels. The most well-known is Rene Meulensteen. Manchester United bought him out of his contract to join them to make their youth better. He's the main technique coach at Manchester. So, I hope you now know better what the so-called Coerver-method can accomplish. The largest club in the world just wanted one of the best technique coaches of the world and it isn't coincedance that it's a former student of Wiel Coerver.

I think that building a foundation starts with youth. So you should give Coerver a chance to start with the Chinese youth and build a steady foundation there. Van Gaal could provide a good infrastructure and could coach the best club around for tactical purposes. And then Guus Hiddink could be NT coach (just to be nationalistic! ;)).

I think that you would have the best of the Netherlands in China then. Divided among three layers. And of course I agree with you on the fact that Van Gaal was very important for Dutch soccer worldwide. And I really think he's one of the best CLUB coaches around, but just not a good NT Coach even the players (also the ex-ajax players, like the de Boer twins and Overmars) admitted that he just wasn't the right choice. But he's a really good choice as a club coach! BTW if you analyse the Van Gaal system he used at Ajax, you'll notice that the system is more about tactics than technique (if you want a system based on technique, just look at some old video tapes from the teams Pele played in or even the 1974 Dutch squad with Cruijff). But then again good tactics cannot be exercised if the technique isn't correct, but it wasn't Van Gaal who taught those players technique, the lower level coaches did this.

I hope you understand my point better now (I am Dutch, so maybe my poor English is the reason that you didn't get it though).


mzzls,

The Big Easy

BTW are you American, cuz you understand a lot about soccer that you don't sound really American (no offense to all the American people here btw)?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
298 Posts
True, English club have young foreign talent, but how many found success outside of England??

Juninho? Anelka? Flo? Petit? The list goes on…

Look at how “well” Rebrov is doing in England.

The Brits mold the youngster to the English style, but the end result is usually the young lads are so modified to the Premier League that they can’t adapt to other style or have trouble with the more calculating continental style.

In fact, how many Brits have success outside of their own backyard? Anwser? One --Steve McManaman. That’s it. And McManaman was sometimes criticized for not being “British” enough during his time in England.

I consider the Premier League a dead zone for young foreign talent. PSV help Romario and Ronaldo on their way. And they’re doing a fine job with Ono. The French routinely develop youngsters that go on to greater and greener things.

The English?? Who did they nurture?? Hmm….. Steve McManaman??

Will Li Tie and Li Weifeng benefit by playing in the Premier League? Yes.

But not as much as they would have in the French or Dutch league.

Sorry have to disagree Bebop, plenty of players do better going away from england. Look at Hasselbaink when he played in Spain. Juninho got a bad injury after playing well in Spain also, Anelka was just wrong in the head and Flo was one of the leading scorers in Scotland last year for Rangers.

The main reason many players haven't found success outside of England is because many of the big stars have not left, for example if Thierry Henry left Arsenal then he would be one of the top stars in ANY league just as most top players from Italy or Spain would.

Dutch teams can nurture because they have no way of keeping these players, the top players for PSV, Ajax, etc want to join English,Spanish or Italian leagues.

Fair point about British players leaving but this can aslo be said about many Italian players, generally the only Italians that leave are 30+ looking for a new challenge. Who's to say that ina few years Beckham, Scholes and Owen will not leave and pave the way for other English players?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
41 Posts
Mulk, I think you're right. Indeed, the same on English players can be said regarding Italian or Spanish soccer players. They are often not leaving their leagues at a young age, just because in these countries they see their leagues as the best league of the world. The young Italians want to play in the Serie A, cuz they consider it the best league, just like British players and Spanish players see the Premier League and the Primera Division as the best league in the world.

I think the Spanish league is the best league in the world, cuz the role of tactics and technique is much bigger, so I think it's more difficult to play there instead of the Premier League, which I consider the second best league. The Italian league is third, the German league fourth, French league fifth and the Dutch league sixth in Europe tied with the Turkish and Portugese leagues, cuz I cannot really judge the strength of the Brazilian and Argentinian league. But after the Italian league there's a little drop off and also after the German and French league there's a drop off in quality.

mzzls,

The Big Easy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Re: to bebop

Originally posted by TheBigEasy
I hope you understand my point better now (I am Dutch, so maybe my poor English is the reason that you didn't get it though).


mzzls,

The Big Easy

BTW are you American, cuz you understand a lot about soccer that you don't sound really American (no offense to all the American people here btw)?

Yes, I understand you point. No, I don't agree with ALL of it but I understand your position.

There is NOTHING to debate here. We both agree on the finer points. To go further would basically drag this into a Coerver vs. Van Gaal subject. And I think that's pretty pointless.

Btw, I'm Chinese.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Originally posted by Mulk



Sorry have to disagree Bebop, plenty of players do better going away from england. Look at Hasselbaink when he played in Spain. Juninho got a bad injury after playing well in Spain also, Anelka was just wrong in the head and Flo was one of the leading scorers in Scotland last year for Rangers.

The main reason many players haven't found success outside of England is because many of the big stars have not left, for example if Thierry Henry left Arsenal then he would be one of the top stars in ANY league just as most top players from Italy or Spain would.

Dutch teams can nurture because they have no way of keeping these players, the top players for PSV, Ajax, etc want to join English,Spanish or Italian leagues.

Fair point about British players leaving but this can aslo be said about many Italian players, generally the only Italians that leave are 30+ looking for a new challenge. Who's to say that ina few years Beckham, Scholes and Owen will not leave and pave the way for other English players?



Ah yes, Hasselbaink did pretty well in Spain. Ironic that Alt Madrid had one of their worst seasons with Hasselbaink, but that’s another story.

And I also remember Paul Ince did well in Serie A.

But I wouldn’t call it “plenty”, in fact, successful English exports are few and far between. For every Hasselbaink, there are Robbie Keane, Juninho, Anelka, Liniker, and others.

What I’m saying is that if you’re a young talented player, and you want to be a success in other venues beside the UK, England is NOT the BEST choice.

They just don’t groom them as well as other countries. I’m talking about Jon Dahl Tomasson, Rebrov, Van Hooijdonk, Kinkladze, Ketsbaia, Milocevic and many others. I saw them play before and after their tenure in England, and I’d have to say they DID NOT improve their game one bit during their time in the Premier League. Or the improvement is so minimal it’s as if they got frozen in time.

On the other hand, I saw Ono, Ronaldo, O’Brien played before their Dutch journey and the difference is like night and day. Same goes for Ronaldinho at France.

Yeah, Henry and Vieira would be stars in other league, but remember which foreign clubs groomed them first?? No, not Arsenal. It’s Juventus and AC Milan respectively.

As for Juninho, yes he was injured; but not for that long. After his injury he was benched, his coach said his style and mentality is not suited to the Spanish game. Anelka never learned to play with his back to goal in England, his failure is inevitable. And the list goes on…

Flo.. well he went to Scotland. I consider going from the Premier League to Scotland a downgrade in itself.

And I seriously doubt any British star will leave the comfort of the Premier League. And I don’t see any of them succeeding (excluding Hagrave and McManaman) outside of their home. Beckham is ridiculously overhyped. Owen has the best chance of starring aboard, but he’s not leaving Liverpool. We all know that. And from what I’ve read, foreign clubs is not as high on him as you may think.

As for Italian exports, why, all I see is smashing success. Di Canio? Couldn’t make the bench in AC Milan, now one of the best strikers in England. Negri? A sub in Italy. A star in Scotland. Carbone, Eranio, Ravenelli, Di Matteo all played great outside of Italy. The only dud I can name is Ambrosetti. That’s it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
41 Posts
Bebop, I agree with a lot of things you said, because I also think that the French and Dutch competition are the best "grooming" leagues in Europe. But I don't agree with your part on the Italian players. Eranio, Ravanelli and Di Matteo were already big players on their teams (especially Ravanelli) and I don't think those three has made any development in England. What surprises me most is that the chance of being succesfull in England is big. I think that's because of the type of soccer that is played their, it's still a lot of long ball soccer. Easy to defend and easy to perform. Look at Boateng, he failed at Feyenoord and now he's a major contributor on Aston Villa (this could also be explained as a mistake by Feyenoord).

But beside all this, I think you make a legitimate point! BTW Bebop do you all so live in China and how many soccer do you watch or is broadcasted there?

mzzls,

The Big Easy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Originally posted by <b>TheBigEasy</b>!
Bebop, I agree with a lot of things you said, because I also think that the French and Dutch competition are the best "grooming" leagues in Europe. But I don't agree with your part on the Italian players. Eranio, Ravanelli and Di Matteo were already big players on their teams (especially Ravanelli) and I don't think those three has made any development in England. What surprises me most is that the chance of being succesfull in England is big. I think that's because of the type of soccer that is played their, it's still a lot of long ball soccer. Easy to defend and easy to perform. Look at Boateng, he failed at Feyenoord and now he's a major contributor on Aston Villa (this could also be explained as a mistake by Feyenoord).

But beside all this, I think you make a legitimate point! BTW Bebop do you all so live in China and how many soccer do you watch or is broadcasted there?

mzzls,

The Big Easy

Yes, the Italians you mentioned didn' t make their English teammates better, aka they didn't teach the English the virtue of the Continental soccer. But remember what Desailly said while he was with Chelsa -- he considers the Premier League inferior to his Serie A root, and he's basically "just relaxing" in England. I think the same goes for many former Serie A players. They don't really take their 'jobs' seriously.

Btw, I live in USA. I was born here. We have Fox Sports World which is the best channel ever invented here.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
Originally posted by <b>Shanghai_boy</b>!
Qu Bo
6 mins 3 ASSISTS!:)
I heard people in england call him the Chinese Michael Owen because of his speed :yes: IMO he's the best player in China, and might also be the only hope of China. I hope he'll do well in the english league and become one of the elite players in the world!! This is my opinion on the Chinese soccer team: If they ever want to catch up with other asian teams( korea and japan), they must really start working their asses off!!! AND this will take them at least 10 years of hard work before they can get to the same level as the koreans and japanese, since they are really far ahead of china. I was disappointed by the performance of China in the world cup. It's really obvious that they don't have the skills to compete with other teams, but i'm more disappointed by the fact that they didn't seem to have tried. If they had hustled like the koreans did, they would have a bigger chance at scoring the first world cup goal in the history of China... oh well, maybe Qu Bo will set a mark in the Chinese history by scoring a goal for CHina in the next world cup.... HE WILL SHINE :D
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Top