I agree, I think the non football schools could definitely be in a position to bolt. I wouldn’t be surprised if those three were interested in the MAAC/PL already.
Conference Expansion: Explosion Happening!
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I see us in a rolling boil right now...this thing is not over. Look, the CAA is a nightmare with its size and cost for ROI, even with the regional travel schedules. There are no real rivalries and you need you top sports to put butts in the seats to pay bills. The lack of attendance is a problem that most NCAA D1 schools are struggling with and the CAA is really a hodgepodge right now. There is zero doubt in my mind that the league will disintegrate at some point. They are no longer the Top 13 or so ranked league, year in and out. They are much closer to the AE in the money driven sport of basketball.
Spending 20-50 million dollars without getting some income in will just not last, it will start to get questioned as the P4 starts to really form.
In my personal opinion, the A-10, MAAC, MEAC, AE, NEC, CAA, PL, Big South, and the Southern conferences need a reset....some more than others. The fact is, football creates problems as do outlier schools location wise (Maine, W&M, the Western PA schools, arguably Binghamton, Albany, and Stony Brook.
Personally, I wish somehow we can get the AE four back and just collapse the CAA...but I think there is a vast difference between Delaware and Bryant, even SBU, Bing, and Bryant. I like Bryant Simply put, there are not great answers without dramatic changes and loss of some rivalries. I have put thought into this and am willing to answer any direct questions, knowing my post is far from perfect. Currently, I see the MAAC and the Southern as the most stable conferences, followed closely by the AE, PL, and A-10. But each of those three have issues, mainly in the AE the football schools, the PL the lack of football schools...G-Town can drop at any time, and the A-10 needing to cull some fat and add some new blood, with the real possibility that UMASS leaves.
Here are new leagues I would use as a baseline to play with, knowing some leagues are at levels where they would like to expand (e.g. the new CAA though I think that group has WAY more in common than people think. And I did not consider (other than the PL) academics very highly, more as a secondary or even tertiary point because quite frankly, this is about ROI and income...not about aligning with the IVY. I also did not consider the best scenario, where the NCAA gets rid of the Dayton Rule and encourages schools to play its sports in multiple conferences, depending on the sport:
Bigger Moves
Charleston- A-10
UMASS- unknown but will move if they want to keep football. They will end up in some form of CUSA, AAC, or MAC.
A-10 (12 All-Sport but for the football schools who play elsewhere)
URI
St Joseph
VCU
GMU
GW
Richmond
St Bonaventure
Dayton
Loyola Chicago
SLU
Davidson
Charleston
CAA (8 All Sport / 11 Team football with 3 Football Only)
Maine (F)
UNH (F)
Albany (F)
Fordham (F)
Stony Brook (F)
Monmouth (F)
Delaware (F)
Towson (F)
URI (Football Only)
Nova (Football Only)
Richmond (Football Only)
America East (8 All Sport)
Vermont
UM-Lowell
Bryant
Fairfield
Hofstra
Drexel
Binghamton
UMBC
**A KEY EDIT WOULD BE A CAA SIZED LEAGUE THAT IS REALLY COMPACT GEOGRAPHICALLY (but for MAINE) combining the AE and the CAA above, adding Bryant for football to bring it to 12, with the Big South having lost Bryant to go down to 6 football members.
NEC (11 Teams (9 All sport) and 10 Football (one football only) (SF-Bklyn leaves D1)
Merrimack (F)
Stonehill (F)
SFU (F)
SHU (F)
Wagner (F)
CCSU (F)
LIU (F)
DSU (F)
Morgan St (F)
Duquesne (Football Only)
NJIT
FDU
MAAC (12 All Sport)
Iona
Rider
Siena
Quinnipiac
Niagara
Manhattan
Marist
The Mount
Canisius
St Peter's
La Salle
Duquesne
PL (13 Teams (7 All sport) and 8 Football (one football only)
Colgate (F)
Lehigh (F)
Lafayette (F)
Holy Cross (F)
Bucknell (F)
W&M (F)
Howard (F)
Georgetown (Football Only)
American
BU
Army
Navy
Loyola
Northeastern
MEAC (league disbands. Coppin and UMES drop out of D1)
Big South (12 Teams with 5 All sport) and 7 Football (two football only)
CSU (F)
G-Webb (F)
Norfolk State (F)
NCCU (F)
SCSU (F)
Bryant (Football only)
RMU (Football only)
Ashville
Longwood
Radford
USC Upstate
Winthrop
High Point
Presby
Southern (15 Teams with 13 All sport) and 13 Football
Samford (F)
Furman (F)
WCU (F)
ETSU (F)
Wofford (F)
Chatty (F)
Mercer (F)
Citadel (F)
VMI (F)
Campbell (F)
Elon (F)
Hampton (F)
NC A&T (F)
UNC Wilmington
UNC Greensboro
Spending 20-50 million dollars without getting some income in will just not last, it will start to get questioned as the P4 starts to really form.
In my personal opinion, the A-10, MAAC, MEAC, AE, NEC, CAA, PL, Big South, and the Southern conferences need a reset....some more than others. The fact is, football creates problems as do outlier schools location wise (Maine, W&M, the Western PA schools, arguably Binghamton, Albany, and Stony Brook.
Personally, I wish somehow we can get the AE four back and just collapse the CAA...but I think there is a vast difference between Delaware and Bryant, even SBU, Bing, and Bryant. I like Bryant Simply put, there are not great answers without dramatic changes and loss of some rivalries. I have put thought into this and am willing to answer any direct questions, knowing my post is far from perfect. Currently, I see the MAAC and the Southern as the most stable conferences, followed closely by the AE, PL, and A-10. But each of those three have issues, mainly in the AE the football schools, the PL the lack of football schools...G-Town can drop at any time, and the A-10 needing to cull some fat and add some new blood, with the real possibility that UMASS leaves.
Here are new leagues I would use as a baseline to play with, knowing some leagues are at levels where they would like to expand (e.g. the new CAA though I think that group has WAY more in common than people think. And I did not consider (other than the PL) academics very highly, more as a secondary or even tertiary point because quite frankly, this is about ROI and income...not about aligning with the IVY. I also did not consider the best scenario, where the NCAA gets rid of the Dayton Rule and encourages schools to play its sports in multiple conferences, depending on the sport:
Bigger Moves
Charleston- A-10
UMASS- unknown but will move if they want to keep football. They will end up in some form of CUSA, AAC, or MAC.
A-10 (12 All-Sport but for the football schools who play elsewhere)
URI
St Joseph
VCU
GMU
GW
Richmond
St Bonaventure
Dayton
Loyola Chicago
SLU
Davidson
Charleston
CAA (8 All Sport / 11 Team football with 3 Football Only)
Maine (F)
UNH (F)
Albany (F)
Fordham (F)
Stony Brook (F)
Monmouth (F)
Delaware (F)
Towson (F)
URI (Football Only)
Nova (Football Only)
Richmond (Football Only)
America East (8 All Sport)
Vermont
UM-Lowell
Bryant
Fairfield
Hofstra
Drexel
Binghamton
UMBC
**A KEY EDIT WOULD BE A CAA SIZED LEAGUE THAT IS REALLY COMPACT GEOGRAPHICALLY (but for MAINE) combining the AE and the CAA above, adding Bryant for football to bring it to 12, with the Big South having lost Bryant to go down to 6 football members.
NEC (11 Teams (9 All sport) and 10 Football (one football only) (SF-Bklyn leaves D1)
Merrimack (F)
Stonehill (F)
SFU (F)
SHU (F)
Wagner (F)
CCSU (F)
LIU (F)
DSU (F)
Morgan St (F)
Duquesne (Football Only)
NJIT
FDU
MAAC (12 All Sport)
Iona
Rider
Siena
Quinnipiac
Niagara
Manhattan
Marist
The Mount
Canisius
St Peter's
La Salle
Duquesne
PL (13 Teams (7 All sport) and 8 Football (one football only)
Colgate (F)
Lehigh (F)
Lafayette (F)
Holy Cross (F)
Bucknell (F)
W&M (F)
Howard (F)
Georgetown (Football Only)
American
BU
Army
Navy
Loyola
Northeastern
MEAC (league disbands. Coppin and UMES drop out of D1)
Big South (12 Teams with 5 All sport) and 7 Football (two football only)
CSU (F)
G-Webb (F)
Norfolk State (F)
NCCU (F)
SCSU (F)
Bryant (Football only)
RMU (Football only)
Ashville
Longwood
Radford
USC Upstate
Winthrop
High Point
Presby
Southern (15 Teams with 13 All sport) and 13 Football
Samford (F)
Furman (F)
WCU (F)
ETSU (F)
Wofford (F)
Chatty (F)
Mercer (F)
Citadel (F)
VMI (F)
Campbell (F)
Elon (F)
Hampton (F)
NC A&T (F)
UNC Wilmington
UNC Greensboro
One school has already tried to engage in conversations with the PL
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Great work Dane96....I don't totally agree with those line-ups but I get your thought process.
From a Maine/UNH perspective......I think that it is imperative that Vermont ends up in the same league with those 2....and to a lesser extent UMass-Lowell. I've cooled a bit on UMass-Lowell's overall athletic program.....but they do provide a relatively close conference opponent for Maine and UNH.
Bottom line is that something needs to hit the fan because none of these schools are making any Earth shattering decisions unless they are forced to.
From a Maine/UNH perspective......I think that it is imperative that Vermont ends up in the same league with those 2....and to a lesser extent UMass-Lowell. I've cooled a bit on UMass-Lowell's overall athletic program.....but they do provide a relatively close conference opponent for Maine and UNH.
Bottom line is that something needs to hit the fan because none of these schools are making any Earth shattering decisions unless they are forced to.
First shot in dark...and tough. Frankly, Binghamton and Vermont were the two most difficult. If they decide to toe the Football line (understanding that football is in), then they MUST be in the new CAA. For Albany those are two massive rivalries...and Vermont's power in Lax, Soccer, and Hoops will only make the league stronger.
At some point it gets to a numbers game (where do you put schools so leagues aren't massive. That being said, and I updated my post as you were probably typing yours, I'd STRONGLY advocate for a CAA/AE that features the following:
Maine (F)
UNH (F)
Albany (F)
Fordham (F)
Stony Brook (F)
Monmouth (F)
Delaware (F)
Towson (F)
Vermont
Hofstra
Drexel
UMBC
Binghamton
Lowell
URI (Football Only)
Nova (Football Only)
Richmond (Football Only)
That gets you 11 football and 14 all sports.
Bryant heads to the MAAC and Fairfield stays in the MAAC, giving them 14 schools.
THIS IS, BY FAR, MY PREFERRED SET UP. Bryant is more MAAC like. The New England schools stick together, and I consider Albany a New England school. Rivalries are preserved. Travel makes sense (but for UMBC and Maine but it doesn't increase for UMBC and Maine). And the Hockey schools stick together.
It's so perfect, it will never happen but should.
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10,121 Posts
You sure this take isn't circa 2013?....he basically just listed the "new" CAA as everyone that has ever been in AE plus Fordham & Monmouth.
Maine is spread a lot thinner than most of those schools, sponsoring football, hockey, and baseball.
Plus, no other New England schools. Maine's flying everywhere but UNH for pretty much everything (or spending all day on a bus), meaning higher costs and more tired legs.
I don't think any of this happens anyways- it's becoming clear that ESPN/FOX are willing to pay for like 10 schools. The rest of those schools' conference-mates are lucky enough to get to cash a check to be "Opponent" for Ohio State or Alabama. It's going to reach a point where the rest of us don't get any money, or any non-nominal playoff access, so might as well just play locally.
Maine (F)
UNH (F)
Vermont
Albany (F)
Lowell
SBU (F)
Towson (F)
UMBC
Delaware (F)
Drexel
Binghamton
Bryant (F)
NJIT
Northeastern
Richmond (associate F)
URI (associate F)
Villanova (associate F)
Tweaked it a bit, but that’s my ideal scenario. Personally Hofstra doesn’t add anything for me, neither does Monmouth. I’ll keep Bryant and NJIT. 10 football league and if UD leaves still at a strong 9.
Also I’ve said this before and it’s not gonna be a driving factor in this round IMHO……if Binghamton adds hockey with their nice AHL arena being a 5 min drive away. I say they should be the 12th member of hockey east granted their spending budget is that of a HE team…… I could care less about they don’t have years of performance, better than literally any other option outside of QU who doesn’t care to join.
UNH (F)
Vermont
Albany (F)
Lowell
SBU (F)
Towson (F)
UMBC
Delaware (F)
Drexel
Binghamton
Bryant (F)
NJIT
Northeastern
Richmond (associate F)
URI (associate F)
Villanova (associate F)
Tweaked it a bit, but that’s my ideal scenario. Personally Hofstra doesn’t add anything for me, neither does Monmouth. I’ll keep Bryant and NJIT. 10 football league and if UD leaves still at a strong 9.
Also I’ve said this before and it’s not gonna be a driving factor in this round IMHO……if Binghamton adds hockey with their nice AHL arena being a 5 min drive away. I say they should be the 12th member of hockey east granted their spending budget is that of a HE team…… I could care less about they don’t have years of performance, better than literally any other option outside of QU who doesn’t care to join.
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769 Posts
You have certainly given this a lot of thought. As an A-10 fan, I can’t disagree with you that the conference needs to “cull some fat”. My question to you is how does that get done? You can’t simply expel some schools.
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10,121 Posts
If there was one school that I would try and go after if I were AE.....it would be Northeastern. One thing to keep in mind is that they are building the Roux Institute in Portland....
![Sky Cloud Water Building Plant]()
roux.northeastern.edu
That probably will have no effect on the conference that Northeastern joins for athletics but you never know.
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Drexel could be ripe for the picking as well out of the CAA. Quinnipiac and Fairfield are probably happy in the MAAC....I don't think that they are going anywhere.
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I think that the ACC is a conference to watch. UCLA/USC to the Big Ten proved that anything can happen. Clemson, Florida State and Miami have to be on the SEC's radar.....and UVA and UNC on the Big Ten's radar. Those 2 conferences can throw A LOT of money at these schools.....plenty of money that can cover the costs of exiting the ACC and increase annual payouts.
www.espn.com
Further changes could be afoot with VA Tech, NC State, Louisville and GA Tech seeking membership with the Big 12!
At this point Notre Dame might head to the Big Ten for all sports except football.....revenue sharing would be adjusted accordingly with the Irish already bringing in $75 million/year with their football media rights.
A decimated ACC is left with BC, Syracuse, Pitt, Duke, & Wake Forest......they turn to the Big East to become a 16-18 team super conference with yup......you guessed it.......football. Everything has come full circle.
So yeah.....this is all a bit "out there".....but this thread deserves a little crazy now and then. 😉
Roux Institute at Northeastern University
Be part of a bold new model of graduate education and research—designed with companies at the table from day one. Stay competitive.
roux.northeastern.edu
That probably will have no effect on the conference that Northeastern joins for athletics but you never know.
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Drexel could be ripe for the picking as well out of the CAA. Quinnipiac and Fairfield are probably happy in the MAAC....I don't think that they are going anywhere.
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I think that the ACC is a conference to watch. UCLA/USC to the Big Ten proved that anything can happen. Clemson, Florida State and Miami have to be on the SEC's radar.....and UVA and UNC on the Big Ten's radar. Those 2 conferences can throw A LOT of money at these schools.....plenty of money that can cover the costs of exiting the ACC and increase annual payouts.
FSU AD: Lagging ACC revenue 'has to change'
FSU athletic director Michael Alford says the $30 million-per-year difference in revenue between schools in the ACC and the SEC/Big Ten "has to change."
www.espn.com
Further changes could be afoot with VA Tech, NC State, Louisville and GA Tech seeking membership with the Big 12!
At this point Notre Dame might head to the Big Ten for all sports except football.....revenue sharing would be adjusted accordingly with the Irish already bringing in $75 million/year with their football media rights.
A decimated ACC is left with BC, Syracuse, Pitt, Duke, & Wake Forest......they turn to the Big East to become a 16-18 team super conference with yup......you guessed it.......football. Everything has come full circle.
So yeah.....this is all a bit "out there".....but this thread deserves a little crazy now and then. 😉
Listening to a college football podcast that has a Mississippi based reporter, it sounds like the SEC will not be expanding further to add football powers. The rationale:I think that the ACC is a conference to watch. UCLA/USC to the Big Ten proved that anything can happen. Clemson, Florida State and Miami have to be on the SEC's radar.....and UVA and UNC on the Big Ten's radar. Those 2 conferences can throw A LOT of money at these schools.....plenty of money that can cover the costs of exiting the ACC and increase annual payouts.
FSU AD: Lagging ACC revenue 'has to change'
FSU athletic director Michael Alford says the $30 million-per-year difference in revenue between schools in the ACC and the SEC/Big Ten "has to change."
Further changes could be afoot with VA Tech, NC State, Louisville and GA Tech seeking membership with the Big 12!
At this point Notre Dame might head to the Big Ten for all sports except football.....revenue sharing would be adjusted accordingly with the Irish already bringing in $75 million/year with their football media rights.
A decimated ACC is left with BC, Syracuse, Pitt, Duke, & Wake Forest......they turn to the Big East to become a 16-18 team super conference with yup......you guessed it.......football. Everything has come full circle.
So yeah.....this is all a bit "out there".....but this thread deserves a little crazy now and then. 😉
1. There's a ceiling on what you can do with this money. The SEC/Big Ten schools may have reached a point with media rights that they don't have much else to buy.
2. There's a ceiling on what ESPN and FOX can pay. Okay, the SEC added Miami/FSU/Clemson, how much more can ESPN realistically spend?
3. The schools that have traditionally been in the middle to bottom of these leagues aren't interested in getting futher down the pecking order. Ole Miss, Mississippi State, South Carolina, etc. don't want to become the Rutgers of their league. The votes to add new powers just aren't necessarily there.
Yeah if the AE adds any schools without football getting Northeastern back would be my first choiceIf there was one school that I would try and go after if I were AE.....it would be Northeastern. One thing to keep in mind is that they are building the Roux Institute in Portland....
View attachment 21814
Roux Institute at Northeastern University
Be part of a bold new model of graduate education and research—designed with companies at the table from day one. Stay competitive.
That probably will have no effect on the conference that Northeastern joins for athletics but you never know.
I wonder how the universities in Maine feel about that institution going into Portland
Here's what I'm hearing now about mid-major conference realignment | Extra Points
Coverage of the off-the-field forces that shape college sports
www.extrapointsmb.com
Matt Brown says West Georgia, a D2 school and the OVC are in conversations. Notes only 1 hour away from former member Jacksonville State, has football, is a state with lots of football talent for other OVC teams to recruit, and has the right enrollment numbers along with other OVC schools. No done deal, but if Brown reports it there is usually enough to it.
Says again that there are Northeast D2s that could move up as well, without naming any but I suspect its ones bandied about before like New Haven and Le Moyne.
If you are the NEC, why the heck not add New Haven and Le Moyne? You can't really make your basketball much worse. Safety in numbers, all that.
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CCSU and SHU don't want to recruit against another school in their backyard, especially in football. New Haven would make it harder for both schools to compete, especially when we also have Fairfield and Quinnipiac in the MAAC. Honestly, with Hartford dropping, it is a net benefit for Central and Sacred Heart.
LeMoyne is an option, I just don't know how much the league may have reservations for travel reasons. It expands the league footprint, but doesn't add value. It is a warm body - which we may need at some point, but it's not like they are going to get picked up by the MAAC or AE, so we can wait.
I think the NEC is holding out that they may get Howard, Delaware State, and Morgan State on a few years.
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655 Posts
Feel like Howard would have better options than NEC, but I admittedly don’t know much about all this stuff.
Howard is not coming to the NEC; they feel they are better than that...agree with it or not. They have A-10 ambitions (trusted source on that one), which is delusional. There ceiling is the CAA. There is scuttlebutt about the PL opening its doors. In the end, I think they end up in a revamped CAA South or whatever that league will be called after a split.
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2,386 Posts
I talked with former high-level Howard AD staff recently involved in this issue directly. They simply know they can't compete in the CAA, which is why they already turned down an offer to join. The A-10 and Patriot is not even a thought for them - they have internally dismissed that. They have the "brand" for a higher level conference, but they are too low budget and dysfunctional administration to make anything like that happen (and they know it). They are a current a NEC Associate member is 7 sports and are very happy. They just won the NEC men's swim and dive and think they can compete well in other sports. Sure, some feel they could do better - but they are very comfortable with the option that the NEC is their best fit.
They still feel an obligation for the MEAC and as a leader of HBCUs, but they have no plans for a conference change to the CAA or A-10 despite the offers or overtures that may have been made from those leagues. It would take a massive shift in the current CAA membership and budget expectations for them to even consider it seriously again.
I'm not picking on Howard, because God knows they're not the only ones. But the number of schools who keep looking at a 15-team basketball-centric league and saying "Ok sure, but I could see them taking US" is astonishing.
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