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The third-year guard's agent, Aaron Goodwin, is concerned enough about the situation to fly to Boston for a meeting with general manager Jerry Krause.

"All we've asked is for the situation to be fair," Goodwin said. "While we respect Bill [Cartwright] and Jerry as people, we don't agree with this decision."

Some players believe the competition really wasn't one.

"To be honest, [Jay starting] was predicated the day he was drafted," Jalen Rose said. "You don't take a guy No. 2 not to play him.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...notes,0,4928169.story?coll=cs-bulls-headlines


Why else would his agent be flying all the way to Boston for? He's already quoted as saying the team hasn't been "fair" by him disagreeing with Cartwright's decision.

In my view, Jamal probably got beat out fair and square anyway. Since the competition was deemed "close" by some (statistically anyways) , it had to be who looked better in practice. That last pre-season game when Jay sat out with an injury and Crawford had the chance to show something, he didn't take advantage. I think that really hurt him as well. Kinda surprising that Jalen would give that type of quote too.
 

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This now throws my feelings towards Craw into limbo, seeing as how I was previously satisfied that JC was content coming off the bench. I think his agent is bad for the Bulls... maybe if Crawford were left alone to play for the love of the game and not for the millions of $, he'd make a decision to work hard off the bench for an up and coming team rather than get traded to some team that is desperate for a decent PG (of which there are many) and pad his stats for a large contract extension next season.

Crawford to the Warriors for Troy Murphy and a 2nd rounder? I hear that they want him, and someone like Murphy could be a long term solution as a backup PF/C.

We could take Danny Fortson but I don't really want him. His contract goes til 2007 and he'd eat quite a bit of our cap space. In addition, he is a truly one-dimensional player.

As for a backup, I'd love to see Rafer Alston on our team, but purely for entertainment value. I don't know how great of a PG he really is... I know he has some mad skills and he's a better shooter than what he's shown so far in the NBA... he's rangy. One thing I know for sure about Alston: he would be grateful to have a roster position, and thus be content as a role player. He would also pour out his all into the position...

I would also give Khalid El-Amin a look, as every team has been doing this past summer. He'll come in and work hard... but he'd be a defensive liability.
 

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Agents and wannabe stars..

Originally posted by <b>Showtyme</b>!
This now throws my feelings towards Craw into limbo, seeing as how I was previously satisfied that JC was content coming off the bench. I think his agent is bad for the Bulls... maybe if Crawford were left alone to play for the love of the game and not for the millions of $, he'd make a decision to work hard off the bench for an up and coming team rather than get traded to some team that is desperate for a decent PG (of which there are many) and pad his stats for a large contract extension next season.

Crawford to the Warriors for Troy Murphy and a 2nd rounder? I hear that they want him, and someone like Murphy could be a long term solution as a backup PF/C.

We could take Danny Fortson but I don't really want him. His contract goes til 2007 and he'd eat quite a bit of our cap space. In addition, he is a truly one-dimensional player.

As for a backup, I'd love to see Rafer Alston on our team, but purely for entertainment value. I don't know how great of a PG he really is... I know he has some mad skills and he's a better shooter than what he's shown so far in the NBA... he's rangy. One thing I know for sure about Alston: he would be grateful to have a roster position, and thus be content as a role player. He would also pour out his all into the position...

I would also give Khalid El-Amin a look, as every team has been doing this past summer. He'll come in and work hard... but he'd be a defensive liability.
Agents R bad for any sport, as THEY stand to get a % of what the player gets, SO, they are gonna make the best deal for themselves, FIRST, I believe.

Secondly, the NBA is full of greedy little immature MJ wannabe's and when EVERY GM in the league is on the same sheet of music, this situation will change...alas, it will NEVER change. It is very difficult to find "role" players who WISH to be molded into that type player. EVERY player seems to feel they are too good to be JUST a role player.

Having said that, I would not make any deal to do Crawford or any other bulls player any favors. I would ATTEMPT to make it through the first half of this season, AND, if possible, try to determine who the stars of this team are gonna be....then deal with the "wannabe's" accordingly.

As far as El Amin goes, I would not make the same mistake twice....he is just another player/person who would definitely fit into the "donut eating" joke category! LOL (This comment was not made in the attempt to offend any of you who love to eat donuts and are fat as a result...and....No, I do not have any proof that he even likes them....!!!)

Lastly, IF there was a chance to get a really good player where we could package fizer and crawford together, I would do it....we are not hurting at PG, We do have williams, Hoiberg, eventually Mason and of course Jalen to play it....with Jalen playing the point, it would definitely open up opportunities for a healthy EROB and also marshall to spend MORE minutes on the court....just my thoughts.:grinning:
 

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Its all a cosmetic positioning statement - mainly from the agent

Much ado about nothing

But Jalen is right - as soon as Jay was drafted it was a done deal - particularly the larger than life campaigns - but they already knew what they had in Jay and they knew what they had in Jamal

Unless as I have said earlier Jamal absolutely compelled them to stay with him which was more about what he needed to be rather than what he actually did - it was always going to be this way

Ray Charles could have seen that
 

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This could be construed as one example why Crawford is not the team's starting PG. With Jamal, it's always been about himself first, and everything else, including his team, always finishes a distant second. He's had problems everywhere he's played and it looks like things aren't going to be any different in Chicago.

Crawford and his agent are in for a rude awakening if they think they can force Krause's hand. They can request, insist on, demand a trade all they want. Unfortunately, Crawford's got about as much value in trade as Fizer has. Few teams are interested in immature, selfish, reluctant to penetrate, three point happy point guards. If anyone thought that what Crawford brought to the table had real value, he'd have been traded by now and the organization wouldn't have to be dealing with this mess. Fact is, most teams look at Crawford as more of a two guard vs. a point guard. And we all know that SG's are, like lawyers, a dime a dozen.

Crawford has more value to the Bulls as Williams' backup than anything the team could procure for him through a trade. But that's not saying much, because as Williams continues to acclimate himself to the pro game, his minutes will go up and Crawford will find himself spending more and more time on the bench. If Williams' development progresses to the point where he's logging 35 to 40 minutes per game bt February, you can color Crawford gone. But if it takes Jay the majority of the season to eliminate rookie mistakes and develop consistency (remember, he's only 21, which makes him the 3rd youngest player on the team behind Tyson and Eddy) then Crawford should plan on staying right where he is until next summer.

"To be honest, [Jay starting] was predicated the day he was drafted," Jalen Rose said. "You don't take a guy No. 2 not to play him.

Crawford must have known he had an uphill battle before him. Did he help his cause by avoiding his teamates and workouts at the Berto Center this summer? Did he demonstrate leadership or selfish stubbornness when he failed to run plays called by Cartwright in practice and during at least one preseason game?

The boy's got alot of growing up to do. How one handles adversity usually says alot about the person. So far Crawford's response to challenges has been to cause trouble or run. Why should this situation be any different?
 

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HJ,

I think that may be a little revisionist in terms of retroactively stating this is the reason why he may not be starting.

His feelings about the situation were known from the start and he showed goodwill when he was told it he would get a fair shake. Statistically and by team comments, I am believe Crawford edged Williams out. If you are going to arbitrarily increase the value of what Williams has done because he is a rookie or becuase he was taken second, then it was never a fair competition to begin with, in the eyes of Crawford. His only recourse is to request a trade or to sit and take it. Both happen, and neither is right or wrong.
 

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Statistically He may have edged Jay out....

Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
HJ,

I think that may be a little revisionist in terms of retroactively stating this is the reason why he may not be starting.

His feelings about the situation were known from the start and he showed goodwill when he was told it he would get a fair shake. Statistically and by team comments, I am believe Crawford edged Williams out. If you are going to arbitrarily increase the value of what Williams has done because he is a rookie or becuase he was taken second, then it was never a fair competition to begin with, in the eyes of Crawford. His only recourse is to request a trade or to sit and take it. Both happen, and neither is right or wrong.
.....however, having said THAT, I do NOT feel crawford deserves the starting nod over Jay for the simple fact that Jay has ALREADY accepted that he WILL do the things Jamal has not for the time he has been with the Bulls. Whether Jamals having not done these things are predicated upon the fact that he was injured, or not, has NOTHING to do with Jay and HIS ability to, do those things. I have watched them both...sure jay is gonna make mistakes, however, I can ALREADY see WHY he was not traded after acquiring him in the draft. He is a "take control" type point and will penetrate the lane when need be, or can find the open man. Lets remember, that a vast majority of the time Crawford even got the playing time he has in this preseason, is due in great part to the fact that Jay's groin has been bothering him..Crawford, as far as his play on the court to me, indicates he might not even have ONE to injure?

GO BULLS!!!:rbanana:
 

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Originally posted by <b>HJHJR</b>!
This could be construed as one example why Crawford is not the team's starting PG. With Jamal, it's always been about himself first, and everything else, including his team, always finishes a distant second. He's had problems everywhere he's played and it looks like things aren't going to be any different in Chicago.

Crawford and his agent are in for a rude awakening if they think they can force Krause's hand. They can request, insist on, demand a trade all they want. Unfortunately, Crawford's got about as much value in trade as Fizer has. Few teams are interested in immature, selfish, reluctant to penetrate, three point happy point guards. If anyone thought that what Crawford brought to the table had real value, he'd have been traded by now and the organization wouldn't have to be dealing with this mess. Fact is, most teams look at Crawford as more of a two guard vs. a point guard. And we all know that SG's are, like lawyers, a dime a dozen.

Crawford has more value to the Bulls as Williams' backup than anything the team could procure for him through a trade. But that's not saying much, because as Williams continues to acclimate himself to the pro game, his minutes will go up and Crawford will find himself spending more and more time on the bench. If Williams' development progresses to the point where he's logging 35 to 40 minutes per game bt February, you can color Crawford gone. But if it takes Jay the majority of the season to eliminate rookie mistakes and develop consistency (remember, he's only 21, which makes him the 3rd youngest player on the team behind Tyson and Eddy) then Crawford should plan on staying right where he is until next summer.

"To be honest, [Jay starting] was predicated the day he was drafted," Jalen Rose said. "You don't take a guy No. 2 not to play him.

Crawford must have known he had an uphill battle before him. Did he help his cause by avoiding his teamates and workouts at the Berto Center this summer? Did he demonstrate leadership or selfish stubbornness when he failed to run plays called by Cartwright in practice and during at least one preseason game?

The boy's got alot of growing up to do. How one handles adversity usually says alot about the person. So far Crawford's response to challenges has been to cause trouble or run. Why should this situation be any different?
Props HJ.

I agree with the breadth of what you said here. You gave a fair assessment of the Crawford situation, as well as his value around the league. As Bulls fans we overvalue what we have, and get enamored with players putting up points/percentages on a very poor NBA team. If Jamal could have fetched us a potential lottery pick or solid big man, believe me Jerry K would have already pulled the trigger. To my knowledge the best offer we have recieved straight-up for Craw was the #11 pick from the Wiz last offseason.

Solid post all around.



VD
 

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Still think MJ wants crawford....

Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!

To my knowledge the best offer we have recieved straight-up for Craw was the #11 pick from the Wiz last offseason.

Solid post all around.



VD
yeah, i agree HJ....great post. oh, uh..vin.....Don't ya still think MJ wants Jamal? What could he offer us tho....? BUT, DON'T ya really think HE STILL WANTS HIM??? I DO!!!!:grinning:
 

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Re: Still think MJ wants crawford....

Originally posted by <b>BamaBull</b>!


yeah, i agree HJ....great post. oh, uh..vin.....Don't ya still think MJ wants Jamal? What could he offer us tho....? BUT, DON'T ya really think HE STILL WANTS HIM??? I DO!!!!:grinning:
Hmm..

The Wiz already have L.Hughes locked up for a few years, he's an older slightly better version of Crawford, with Dixon waiting in the wings. I find this a bit ironic, being that the Bulls could have had Hughes 2 years back, but instead chose to take on Starks and the Wizards draft pick (#8 which landed Craw). Last offseason, we could have had the #11 (Dixon) for Craw. So yeah, the same three 'tweener' PGs are involved here.

At this point, not sure what we could fetch for Craw. He will get minutes, and if he's happy, this will only help the team. I'm sure Jerry K is working the phones at this point, and will continue to guage interest throughout the season.



VD
 

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Re: Re: Still think MJ wants crawford....

Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!


Hmm..

The Wiz already have L.Hughes locked up for a few years, .....



VD

I have never liked this guy as a basketball player.....underachiever in my book.

what # pick was dixon, btw??? Hmmmmmm...
 

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Statistically:
Crawford and JWILL were putting up the same numbers even though Crawford is going in to his third season.

Potential:
JWILL's speed, courtvision, and leadership put it him at another level.

I know it "sucks" for for a "vetran" to lose his spot to a rook, but this is a pretty easy decision. I don't see why everyones getting their panties in a bunch. I am glad going into the umpteenth year of loosing that the Bulls are still able to make decisions with a somewhat level head...
 

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Call the agent!!!!!!!!

Great, I can see it in junior high gyms everywhere. Sitting on the bench. No problem. Well, only one problem really. You and your great skills are just misunderstood. Only 1 thing could possibly *RECTIFY* the situation. Get a damn agent.

Sadly, I prefered the Jordan myth of his getting cut from the team and working on his skillz.

Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
Statistically and by team comments, I am believe Crawford edged Williams out.
BCH, you can believe this and all indications are that that Craw believes this. But I don't.

First, Craw's shooting slipped from last year. He shot 48% in the regular season last year. He shot about 38% in this preseason. That is some serious backpeddling.

Second, the main stat that keeps getting raised is Craw's superior A\TO ratio. It's a small set of data to work with, but JWill showed remarkable improvement from summer league to the first half of preseason to the end of preseason.

Wake me up when Craw decides to play good, consistant team ball.

p.s. This is just IMHO, it's far from clear to me given the ambigious statements that Rose and the other Bulls feel that Craw was jobbed.

p.p.s If Wash had offered pick#11, a certain JJ from IU would have fit in very nicely with our talent unless this would have made the Bullz less attractive to Marshall.
 

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Actually, from what I see, Hughes and Crawford are at the same time similar and different.

They've got similar bodies and similar passing skills. They're both kind of tweeners.

There are major differences in their style of play though. Hughes is a pretty good defender, while heretofor, Crawford hasn't been. On the other hand, Crawford is a sharpshooter, while Hughes doesn't show much range on his shot. Hughes likes to drive to the bucket, Jamal likes to stay outside.

--------

In any case, I tend to agree that the Wiz would no longer be in the market for Jamal after signing Hughes and drafting Juan Dixon.

At draft time, I believe the offer was for the 11th pick, which turned out to be Jeffries. Actually, Jeffries would have be a pretty good fit for the Bulls. He can shoot, handle, and rebound. In retrospect, I would have done that deal if I were the Bulls. Likely they could have gotten Whitney thrown in too to be the backup PG.
 

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Re: Still think MJ wants crawford....

Originally posted by <b>BamaBull</b>!


yeah, i agree HJ....great post. oh, uh..vin.....Don't ya still think MJ wants Jamal? What could he offer us tho....? BUT, DON'T ya really think HE STILL WANTS HIM??? I DO!!!!:grinning:
Bama,
You're absolutely right. MJeff is still very much in love with Crawford and has told him so directly for the last two summers at Hoops. You don't really think that the reason Krause doesn't want his players hanging out at Hoops is because they risk injury, do you? MJeff has circumvented tampering rules for two years now by labeling himself a "player" instead of "management" all the while using Hoops as his recruitment office. Imagine the sweet nothings he'd start to blow in Curry and Chandler's ears next summer as they prepare for their third pro season. Of course he won't re-establish himself as a member of Wizards' management until next summer's over and he's done as much recruiting as he can at Hoops.

Unfortunately for Crawford he's going to have to wait for free agency before MJeff can show him some love. Its my guess that neither Krause or Jordan would ever hook up in a deal that one or the other could point to down the road as proof of who the better GM really is.

Crawford could sign with the Wiz. Hughes slides over to the SG slot. If Stackhouse remains with the Wiz (which is questionable at this time) he's their SF. Otherwise Collins will look to Jeffries. Brown will have fully blossemed at PF and Haywood will have established himself as a defensive force in the post. This will all take place the summer of 2004. Not a bad plan when you think about it:

STARTERS
PG: Crawford (6'5")
SG: Hughes (6'5")
SF: Stackhouse (6'6")
PF: Brown (6'11")
C: Haywood (7'0")

RESERVES
PG: Dixon
SG: Jeffries
SF: Laettner
PF: Thomas
C: White

Of course, this is highly speculative, but it's a very solid collection of young players. I'd venture to guess that there'd be some epic battles between the Wiz and Bulls that following season. Three matchups I'd love to watch would be Crawford and Williams, Brown and Chandler, and Haywood and Curry.

Again, I know this is way down the road. But its not real hard to envision this as a premiere matchup in the future, comparable to the Lakers and Kings rivalry, at least in terms of intensity. And if both teams develop the way everyone hopes, there's no doubt that the East will be back in a big way.
 

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Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
HJ,

I think that may be a little revisionist in terms of retroactively stating this is the reason why he may not be starting.

His feelings about the situation were known from the start and he showed goodwill when he was told it he would get a fair shake. Statistically and by team comments, I am believe Crawford edged Williams out. If you are going to arbitrarily increase the value of what Williams has done because he is a rookie or becuase he was taken second, then it was never a fair competition to begin with, in the eyes of Crawford. His only recourse is to request a trade or to sit and take it. Both happen, and neither is right or wrong.
I agree with you BCH. It was Crawford's position to lose and IMO Williams was not impressive enough yet to warrant taking the spot from Jamal. Sure, he probably would have been at some point in time, but he simply wasn't yet. Basically Crawford wasn't given a fair shake. It's surprising to me as I think it would have been more benefical for all parties concerned to start Jamal UNTIL Williams really did beat him out. It would have maintained Jamal's confidence, forced Williams to work hard for the spot, and drove up Crawford's trade value as a result of his being showcased.

I fail to understand why Jamal is being selfish for not handing over his starting duties with a smile to the new rookie who clearly didn'tdo anything THAT much better than Jamal to warrant the nod. Crawford was screwed from the moment we drafted JWill and now he realizes that. Goodwin will ask for a trade and Jamal will be dealt. Krause does not have the power to control this situation as he did with Oakley. If Goodwin publicly demands a trade then Crawford's value plummetts. Oh yeah, make no mistake, Jamal has some value. He is coveted by MANY teams.
 

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Re: Re: Still think MJ wants crawford....

Originally posted by <b>HJHJR</b>!
Unfortunately for Crawford he's going to have to wait for free agency before MJeff can show him some love. Its my guess that neither Krause or Jordan would ever hook up in a deal that one or the other could point to down the road as proof of who the better GM really is.
Great post as always!

Craw will be a RFA in 2 years. So would the Jerrys be more willing to match an offer from MJ as opposed to any of the other clubs? Maybe so...
 

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Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
It's surprising to me as I think it would have been more benefical for all parties concerned to start Jamal UNTIL Williams really did beat him out. It would have maintained Jamal's confidence, forced Williams to work hard for the spot, and drove up Crawford's trade value as a result of his being showcased.
I would suggest that the Bulls are not worried about JWilll's motivation. JWill will not be satisfied with being a mediocre player on a bad team.

I would also argue that Craw may have more value around the league if team feel that he did not get a fair shake rather than underperform in too many minutes.

Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
Krause does not have the power to control this situation as he did with Oakley. If Goodwin publicly demands a trade then Crawford's value plummetts. Oh yeah, make no mistake, Jamal has some value. He is coveted by MANY teams.
The Bulls can nail his *** to the bench for 2 years. Craw can take the chance that some team will overlook the bad attitude and hope that he can play ball. Or he could improve his game and play winning bball when he is on the court.

P.S. Please define *value plummeting* and *some value*.
 
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