Professional and College Basketball Forums banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 13 of 13 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,541 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)

This topic deserves a thread of it's own, even though aspects of it have been mentioned and argued about on other threads.

For those of you who are not interested in reading the whole article or the excerpt below, Paul Daugherty is essentially making the very valid point that in terms of basketball success, Xavier University has risen above Catholic colleagues Dayton, Saint Louis, Duquesne, St. Bonaventure, St. Joseph's, La Salle, and Fordham because Xavier has seriously lowered their standards in the pursuit of that success and the attendant national publicity, which obviously has not been good of late.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dez Wells and the Price of Xavier's Success (Paul Daugherty, Cincinnati Enquirer - August 22, 2012)





Xavier said goodbye to its best returning player Tuesday, amid vague pronouncements of serious conduct violations. Rumors are what they are. But when your best returning player is shown the gate, chances are it isn’t for missing a few classes or spitting on a sidewalk.

Xavier didn’t simply kick Wells off the team. Xavier kicked him out of school.

You can’t serve two masters in college sports. At least not well. Nice guys might not finish last, but they’re not getting you to Final Fours, either. Aspiring to Final Fours means recruiting Final Four talent. Problems and all. It’s not coincidence that Xavier’s rise to national hoop prominence has included a jump in its knucklehead factor. These aren’t merit-badge people you’re signing. If you want to run with the big dogs, expect big-dog problems.

When Xavier was Bob Staak and Pete Gillen and to some extent Skip Prosser, its boasts of Right Way basketball were genuine. Those early teams went to Mass together, on the road. They had a priest on the bench.

The Musketeers had genuinely high-quality people playing for them, who developed into outstanding basketball players. David West was as good as they came. So was Brian Grant. Those two wouldn’t get a long look from Xavier now. They were not Top 100 recruits. They weren’t blue-chip types.

I don’t know when, exactly, basketball became a high priority on Victory Parkway. It was an evolution, probably. The correlation between marketing and basketball has been very tight for at least a decade. Basketball success has provided marketing, advertising, positive PR and national exposure. It is a fine way for a little school with big aspirations to sell itself on a regional, even national, stage. All well and good.

Except when it isn’t.

If you’re an alumnus/alumna, what do you make of this? What do you think when you see a video clip of The Fight, for the 10,000th time? How is it to hear a representative of your alma mater refer to himself and his mates as "gangsters"? Would you prefer to return to the Little Team That Could days of Pete Gillen, if it meant keeping your school off the police pages? Or is the devil-deal simply the way of things now?

The problem isn’t that XU has made the deal that almost every school aspiring to hoop greatness makes. The problem is, a certain segment of the XU faithful retain the notion that their "kids" are a cut above yours.

Not anymore.

Dez Wells is gone from Xavier, but the taint remains.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Muddy's Observations:

(1) Xavier is first and foremost a Catholic Institution of higher learning, proclaiming the same in the Xavier University Mission Statement:

Xavier’s mission is to educate. Our essential activity is the interaction of students and faculty in an educational experience characterized by critical thinking and articulate expression with specific attention given to ethical issues and values.

Xavier is a Catholic institution in the Jesuit tradition, an urban university firmly rooted in the principles and conviction of the Judeo-Christian tradition and in the best ideals of American heritage.

With attention to the student as an individual, Jesuit education seeks to develop:

1. Intellectual skills for both a full life in the human community and service in the Kingdom of God;

2. Critical attention to the underlying philosophical and theological implications of the issues;

3. A world view that is oriented to responsible action and recognizes the intrinsic value of the natural and human values;

4. An understanding and communication of the moral and religious values through personal concern and lived witness, as well as by precept of instruction; and

5. A sense of the whole person - body, mind, and spirit.​
(2) Xavier University forgot who they were. Or at least, who they were supposed to be.

(3) You can’t serve two masters in college sports. At Xavier, the 'basketball master' has finally defeated the 'good national reputation master' and buried him. In short, Xavier has sacrificed its former good national reputation for greater success in basketball.

(4) Further to Observation (3) above, I am very pleased that the University of Dayton has not followed Xavier over to the Dark Side. As an alumnus, the outstanding reputation that the University of Dayton has developed over the past 160 years is far more important to me than winning the NCAA Tournament. I am very proud of the University of Dayton, the fine national reputation it enjoys, and the excellent education I received there in the 1970's.

(5) Xavier University has made its own value judgement in giving 'success in college basketball' a higher priority than keeping its 'good national reputation', which the University is entitled to do.

(6) And at the same time, Xavier fans and alumni constantly ridicule other Catholic Universities for keeping their 'good national reputation' a higher priority than 'success in college basketball'. This is the root cause of most of the MB 'pissing matches' between Xavier fans and Dayton fans.


(7) I firmly believe that Catholic Universities (and private universities such as Richmond and Butler) should hold themselves to higher standards than State schools, and doing so confers the obligation to act in all matters in accordance with the letter and spirit of each university's Mission Statement. It's a significant part of what separates private universities from State schools.

(8) The Administration at Xavier University obviously believes otherwise.

(9) I'm very pleased that the University of Dayton has no interest in recruiting kids like Chris Thomas, who quite obviously has no interest whatsoever in furthing his education.

(10) I'm very disappointed that Xavier University shows great interest in recruiting kids like Chris Thomas, who quite obviously has no interest whatsoever in furthing his education. He wants to play in the NBA. Period. If Chris Thomas actually plays a game in a Xavier uniform, it won't be because he is proud to be a student at Xavier University - it will be because his advisor/agent told him that he should play a year of college ball before declaring for the draft.

And that is what separates Dayton from Xavier.



"Zip 'em !"









Also, Xavier University needs a new catch-phrase.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,015 Posts
(7) I firmly believe that Catholic Universities (and private universities such as Richmond and Butler) should hold themselves to higher standards than State schools, and doing so confers the obligation to act in all matters in accordance with the letter and spirit of each university's Mission Statement. It's a significant part of what separates private universities from State schools.
Does the UD Mission Statement include having hookers in your hotel room while on the road. Getting caught and then sweeping it under the rug with only a minor penalty of not starting a game?

Does the UD Mission Statement include being put on probation by the NCAA's for cheating?

Does the UD Mission Statement include making sure that scholarship players knock up girlfriends?

I could go on and on but you get the point
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,915 Posts
This has essentially been the crux of the argument since the Brawl last year, and debated on this board even before that...it's gone national now though with the UC presser and now Wells.

This argument generally falls into two categories for a school, X and UD included....alumni and then the general fan who never attended the school at all and is just a "fan". I fall into that later category and it's easy to go an X board and look at just a couple of posts and figure out who is just a "fan" and who the alumni are. Alumni will generally have a lot more say in the going ons of a program then Flyer75 does. An alumni donor who can drop a million dollar check for the renovations of a cafeteria or the start up of a Cintas project has a TON of say in what discipline, type of player is recruited, ect. Now put 10, 20, 25 of those donors raising cain, and people listen. They won't listen to some fan on a message board that simply cares about S16 appearances.

Then again, it might also have been a matter of "here's your 2 million dollar check, recruit who you want, we want to win games, but we don't want to read about the dirty stuff in the paper". Well, the dirty stuff has been hitting the papers for a year now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,915 Posts
Another post about 1998???? Really? Hey, let's start a thread about all the indiscretions between the two universities since 1980!!! Or we can just keep talking about what other college fans are reading about for the last 2 years.....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,015 Posts
75, do you really believe what this "douche" is writing? Plenty of people, alumni and others, were upset about the brawl and it will take some time but it will fade away from the national conscious. Dez made a bad decision but EVERYTHING that I've read or seen about this kid has indicated anything but that he was a risk.

Bottom line is that donations ARE NOT down. Attendance may take a hit this year but season tickets are being renewed. Applications for school are still at record high numbers and this will all blow over.

Oh and BTW, Daugherty has always been as ass when it comes to Xavier so this was just another chance for him to take a shot. If he knew ANYTHING about the Staak years he wouldn't have included him. They may have had Mass together and a priest on the bench but coach and his players partied more than a fraternity.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
950 Posts
I was called plenty of names when I stated this coach would sail this program directly into the Ohio River...
This was an easy call.

“ If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. ”
Chris Mack is a quack and a ducking idiot.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,541 Posts
Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
I have no idea of what A10fan2 is posting, but here is what a rational Xavier fan posted on Page 6 of the Dez Wells Expelled (Musketeer Madness MB) thread:

look, the issue here is not whether players get in trouble off the court or not. they do, and anyone who has any pipeline into this program knows that this is not a recent occurrence (as has been pointed out).

the university (and it's backers) have recently come under a ton of fire for not handling these types of situations transparently, and are paying the price.

those who have somehow felt that this university was somehow above all that were either dilusional, intentionally trying to paint a picture that did not exist, or just flat out had their head in the sand.

daugherty's column on this was very accurate.

this program if it wants to be a top 25 program will likely continue to have issues, as it's not any different under the covers than the rest. it's pretty hard to paint a picture otherwise at this point. you can paint as many portraits as you want, but until i see diplomas translating into highly productive graduates post college, detractors will have their point. they're all drawing from the same pool of talent, and in fact we've had our share who have first gone to other div. 1 schools first.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,015 Posts
I was called plenty of names when I stated this coach would sail this program directly into the Ohio River...
This was an easy call.

“ If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. ”
Chris Mack is a quack and a ducking idiot.
You're still wrong and still deserve to be called those plenty of names. Do you now consider the program in the Ohio River?

Last I checked Mack was still rated amongst the best coaches in the league. Xavier is still rated at #34 over the last 50 years despite only being significant for the last 25 of those. Mack's recruiting is STILL rated amongst the best in the nation.

Curious at to why you think the program is in the river?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,015 Posts
LOL, I guess the long adhered to rule of not bringing posts from other messageboard's is gone now. This is probably the 3 one I've seen in the last few days. It's get fun around here.
 

·
Limehouse Blues
Joined
·
26,988 Posts
I am not seeing a legitimate purpose to this thread beyond baiting another fanbase. We'll let the higher ups decide if it gets opened back up
 
1 - 13 of 13 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top