did you guys know that many europeans actually think that their style of playing basketball is superior to the U.S.? i know many european players who play ball and most of them would say that the players from US are just athletic, but they dont play the game smart. they feel that the "old sacramento" style is better than the average offense that ppl run. they would marvel at a dunk or any spectacular play, dont get me wrong, but they just think that the cutting, pick-and-roll, and shooting is "smarter" basketball. another reason they feel that they are better is because every player is taught the same way. they all learn to shoot, dribble, and all the fundamentals (thats why many of their big men can shoot). as opposed to us who stick players in certain positions usually based on their size. u know what i mean. when we playing pick up games or whatever we assign the big guys down low, and if they wander around the perimeter we tell them to go down and bang, post up or grab rebounds. but yea i just wanted to state this. thats why i was mad we lost in the olympics. but the point is, they think we are just athletic, but not smart when it comes to basketball. some of them
Europeans and basketball
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Athleticism, quickness, and stamina is what separates the NBA from international leagues. Of course, that's what basketball is all about, physical ability. "Teamwork" is just an overrated way of saying you're not a great athlete and you have to rely on those skills to survive.
NBA is about physical ability, basketball is a combination of physical ability and basketball fundamentals. You should know better than that. You can always put it vice versa: Since you don't have brains to play you need to rely on your athletism.EHL said:
The ideal situation would be that you put athletes with great basketball IQ in a system that relies on teamwork and ballmovement. Best individuals would still be the best players and make flashy plays within the system.
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Yes, but overall, if you don't have the physical ability to play basketball at the highest level, it won't matter how smart or gifted you are. That's my point. People vastly overrate fundamentals when physical ability is almost always more important. For every retarded freak athlete that can't make it to the NBA there are 100 players with great fundamentals and no athleticism that can't make it to the NBA.Scipio said:
I agree with that, sure.
They can believe whatever they want. 100 years of basketball dominance by the NBA can't be erased by two bad showings in international play.
Second I find the terms used very suspicious. Why call it "european" ball when a south american country won the olympics? Its international (FIBA) ball, not european. Folks automatically give credit to europe because the latin players looks white.
The european take on basketball is sour grapes. Lack of athleticism makes them feel they its an inferior style when it isnt, but frankly they have little choice in the matter. American ball is dominated by blacks who are more athletic, but there is an entire class of players that are purely skilled (reggie miller, Magic) and then a class of players that combine both (KG, MJ). Europe is being silly if they dismiss athleticism in athletics.
One of the reason you find big men that can shoot in international teams is because they start these guys as pros very young, so a 6' 2" guard suddlenly becomes 7' after a growth spurt and since he's been handling the ball all along he ends up a good shooter like Dirk. If you notice, american players that came into the NBA young were not forced into set positions and developed a shot and ball handling skills like the europeans (Garnett, Rashard Lewis, Odom). This is one of the reason i'm against the age limit becaue I think its created "monsters" like Garnett and Lebron that likely wouldnt handle the ball if they were in college. The coach would give it to a 5 11" guard and use lebron's and KG's height to dominate, wasting his pasing ability.
Second I find the terms used very suspicious. Why call it "european" ball when a south american country won the olympics? Its international (FIBA) ball, not european. Folks automatically give credit to europe because the latin players looks white.
The european take on basketball is sour grapes. Lack of athleticism makes them feel they its an inferior style when it isnt, but frankly they have little choice in the matter. American ball is dominated by blacks who are more athletic, but there is an entire class of players that are purely skilled (reggie miller, Magic) and then a class of players that combine both (KG, MJ). Europe is being silly if they dismiss athleticism in athletics.
One of the reason you find big men that can shoot in international teams is because they start these guys as pros very young, so a 6' 2" guard suddlenly becomes 7' after a growth spurt and since he's been handling the ball all along he ends up a good shooter like Dirk. If you notice, american players that came into the NBA young were not forced into set positions and developed a shot and ball handling skills like the europeans (Garnett, Rashard Lewis, Odom). This is one of the reason i'm against the age limit becaue I think its created "monsters" like Garnett and Lebron that likely wouldnt handle the ball if they were in college. The coach would give it to a 5 11" guard and use lebron's and KG's height to dominate, wasting his pasing ability.
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I agree but some coachs in college would let a LeBron or KG do what they do best like coach K of Duke. Deng was 6"8' but he stayed on the peremiter most of the time same with Mike Dunleavy who was 6"10'. It mosly depends on which program you go to and what are the sizes of their big men whether or not you'd be able to show your full range of skills. Andrew Bogut sure does have both an outside and inside game from what I've see also.jaja said:
Yeah, but Bogut is far from KG in terms of ball handling skills. He passes well for a big man, but garnet passes well period. Deng is a better example, but frankly I can only think of one big player in college than handles the ball and he was a PG that had a growth spurt. Lebron is essentially the PG of his team or close to it. I dont remember if Deng was ever given that kind of responsibility. If you remeber at the start of the season Josh smith started as a PG. In college, at 6 9" he likely would be posting up some player instead of given that chance..LBJthefuturegoat said:
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good point,especially if you look at the college game now, 6'6 guys are playing the post we can't have thatjaja said:
actually in september 1978 Washington Bullets (NBa champs if I am not mistaken) lost to Maccabi Tel Aviv 98-97... not that comparison between NBA and europe bases on one single game... but anyway, saying 100 years of dominance is a bit harsh in this case, especially since in international competitions USA mostly played with a NCAA selection and noone can tell how big that "dominance" was before the 80ies when NBa players started to dominate physicaly wise...
Because Nocioni, Scola, Oberto, Ginobili... the whole Argentinian team with exception of one player who I can't recall right now developed in europe since they were picked very young by (mostly) spanish teams to play in europe.
that's true, 10 years ago for example european players were really undeveloped physically wise, things are changing now and european players are getting more and more athletic...
Matiz said:
the 100 years of dominance didn't mean perfect domination. But USA dominance was unquestioned. That the USA used NCAA selection and dominated speaks to the gap that has existed between the game here and in the rest of the world. That gap is closing though
I agree with you about Nocioni and Scola etc in part. But its not the whole story. i rarely hear Pietrus, Diaw and Gadzuric mentioned when they say european player, or even international. Bogut developed in the NCAA but it hasnt stopped people saying how he game is "european."
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Are you sure?
Exactly! I think people should get over streotyps that "euro" basketball means fundamental skills with no athletism.
If you don't agree you should watch Argentina's team, the did have pretty good athlets in their team.
I think we all should REMEMBER that this thread was about basketball style.
I belive the point of this thread could be proveing that Argentina wouldn't beat USA if his players would use style (less teamwork) what USA was useing (because of theyre talent level).
Why do you think they play it? They wouldn't play a certain style if they thought it was a bad way to play.
Anyway, to me, in the end it's not about how they play in Europe. It's about how individuals play in the NBA. Some European players are better, some are worse. Dirk Nowitski is better than almost all American players. Don't forget all of the European players that are scrubs though. Mario Kasun is not a better scrub than Jerome Williams. And they have their average players, too. European players are not always better than Americans, or vice versa, so you can't say Europe playes better basketball than America.
And remember, the best European ballers come to play in the NBA, not the other way around.
Anyway, to me, in the end it's not about how they play in Europe. It's about how individuals play in the NBA. Some European players are better, some are worse. Dirk Nowitski is better than almost all American players. Don't forget all of the European players that are scrubs though. Mario Kasun is not a better scrub than Jerome Williams. And they have their average players, too. European players are not always better than Americans, or vice versa, so you can't say Europe playes better basketball than America.
And remember, the best European ballers come to play in the NBA, not the other way around.
Well, the European style depends on their superior shooting. They can move the ball around on the perimeter because every player can hit their shots. The NBA style emphasizes tougher defense and post play much more, because the athletcism and strength of the players allows that better. I don't know if better is supposed to mean fun to watch. I mean, Shaq's style isn't very pretty, but it's more effective than any other.
I don't think at all that International basketball is superior to US Basketball, it's really far from it. I think you are misunderstanding the point. What probably we think is that international basketball is played in a smarter way. Imagine that we take the best 100 players from the US (including those developed in the US such as Duncan) and the best 100 players from Latin America / Europe. If we rank these players as individuals the US players would have, let's say, 100, then the European players would have a rating of 40. No doubt. But if you start to make teams then US teams would be 80 and Latin/Europe 60, still a big difference.
Why do I think so? At college/HS level For every Magic, Bird or Kidd you got dozens of Iverson, Kobe or Ben Gordon players who think me first and team second. Probably the explanation is that with literally thousands of good players you desperately need to survive as an individual. In Europe there are not so many competitors so the development could be more rational. There is time enough for a PF to learn other skills including teamwork. But even though, this doesn't mean at all that basketball is better, no way
US disaster in Athens wasn't an accident. It wasn't only Argentina, also Puerto Rico (amazing for me because PR is plenty of me-first players), Lithuania, even Spain with other referees. There was no teamwork. But even though, just adding Ray Allen / Redd and a true point guard like Kidd would have been enough to win the gold medal.
Maybe the next step is start to realize that coaching in Europe/Latin America is in many areas more developed than in the US. However, US players / US fans would not accept easily European managers, although the best example is Mike D'Antoni who learn mainly in Italy.
Why do I think so? At college/HS level For every Magic, Bird or Kidd you got dozens of Iverson, Kobe or Ben Gordon players who think me first and team second. Probably the explanation is that with literally thousands of good players you desperately need to survive as an individual. In Europe there are not so many competitors so the development could be more rational. There is time enough for a PF to learn other skills including teamwork. But even though, this doesn't mean at all that basketball is better, no way
US disaster in Athens wasn't an accident. It wasn't only Argentina, also Puerto Rico (amazing for me because PR is plenty of me-first players), Lithuania, even Spain with other referees. There was no teamwork. But even though, just adding Ray Allen / Redd and a true point guard like Kidd would have been enough to win the gold medal.
Maybe the next step is start to realize that coaching in Europe/Latin America is in many areas more developed than in the US. However, US players / US fans would not accept easily European managers, although the best example is Mike D'Antoni who learn mainly in Italy.
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