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Administrator 12/02--7/07
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
With the impending ascendency of JW, a genuine playmaking PG and a young, but credible low post presence in EC, a talented face the basket F/C in TC, and an overall young team with more legs, energy and enthusiam than anything else, does anyone think the Bulls would be better off abandoning the Triangle in favor of a more traditional offense? Perhaps a little West Coast style run and gun would put some more W's in the box scores next year?

This could be a fun year, even if there are no more trades, as long as everyone is healthy!!!:cool:
 

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Yeah, I'd love to see them do that, for the first three quarters anyway. That run and gun style usually doesn't do much in the fourth quarter when defenses really focus, though, so they might want to learn the triangle anyways just so they have a halfcourt game they can go to when the game slows down.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Agreed that every team, the run and gunners included, must have a half court game, especially for the fourth quarter. It could, but doesn't have to be the Triangle. Not that I'm putting down the Triangle -- that offense is a thing of beauty when it is clicking. I am of the school that appreciates good passing and shot selection over poster dunks.

I do think the current Bulls roster seems to favor a West Coast style that the other teams in the East seem to have difficulty matching. I say Run, Run, Run!
 

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First - TomBoerwinkle#1 , love the name, he was one of my all time favorite Bulls.
As for the triangle and run and gun, no team is going anywhere important in the playoffs just off run and gun, it doesn't work well when the game is on the line during the regular season and especially in playoff basketball. You need a well disciplined half court game and the triangle has been succesfuly used in winning championships which is where we want to go.
Granted, the triangle takes time and experience to learn and initially will cost a young team some games, but we are not going anywhere this year anyway. The discipline involved is good for our youth and each year they will get better at it. In Jay Williams we have an extremely intelligent point guard and he will pick it up quicker than most, but lets remember, he is a rookie, he is only 20 and he has to learn his teammates and they have to learn him.
I am willing to sacrifice a few games this year for the later benefits when it will really count. What sets the Bulls and their management apaprt is the sacrifices they were willing to make for the long term good and that effort combined with intelligent rebuilding is noteworthy of the kind of effort it takes to eventually win a ring.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Songcycle, thanks for the compliment on my username. I'm just sorry you didn't get to see the custom Avatar I had set up with Tom's Picture.

I just want to say again, I understand the importance of a half court game, especially at crunch time. But I also believe a pro sports team must have flexibility in its system, so as to utilize the particular talents of its roster to maximum effectiveness.

At the end of a close game, where every possession counts, go to the half court. A smart point like JWILL can, I'm sure, make the Triangle look like it did in the good ol' days. For most of the course of a gmae, however, I think the physical skills of the Bulls favors a more open offense.
 

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Personally, I would favor a move away from the triangle. That doesn't mean having no offensive structure. I'd like a team as young and athletic as ours to run at every opportunity, but in the half court set, I like the pick and roll, especially given our personnel. The triangle was fine in the 90's, but I wouldn't credit our championship banners to the offensive system. The players we have now are superb ballhandlers (esp. Rose, JWill, and Crawford). Rose in particular makes great passes out of the pick and roll. Curry is another guy with great handles for his size.

The triangle seems to reward teams that can consistently hit open jumpers, which we cannot. I think the pick and roll would give our guys more opportunity to attack the rim, which is what we want out of them.

Note: by "attack the rim", I am not referring to Dali's baby hook
 

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Tom, you will be happy to learn that the Bulls can have their Triangle cake and eat it too... the Triangle offense (at least as it is taught in Tex Winter's book) not only allows, but emphasizes, the importance of the transition game and taking advantage of the fast break when the opportunity presents itself. It is simple ignorance that has given people the impression that running the Triangle precludes "running and gunning". Nothing could be further from the truth!
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Good Point on Tex' philosophy. However, it seems to me that the Triangle has the reputation for emphasis of half court over fast break opportunity is a result of the way the offense seems to play itself out in practice, as opposed to the textbook.

What I have been trying to say in my subsequent posts is that my use of the word "abandon" in my first post was probably too draconean a suggestion. I think everyone has agreed that a focus on more running, when appropriate, would be a good thing for these Bulls.
 

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Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
It is simple ignorance that has given people the impression that running the Triangle precludes "running and gunning". Nothing could be further from the truth!
I wouldn't say ignorance... more the fact that no one has seen a talented, athletic, seasoned team run it for several years.

If you want to give any offensive system a bad name, the best means I could think of would be to have guys like Matt Maloney, Dickey Simpkins, Chris Carr, Michael Ruffin, and a 100 year old Hersey Hawkins playing major minutes in it. Or a couple teenagers for that matter.
 

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Related reading material.

"Jay" or "the triangle"

"holy"(?) Triangle

As for the running issue, IMO it has approximately ZILCH to do with the triangle and approximately 100% to do with the fact that the Bull defense let the other team score alot(it's easier to run off of a missed shot than a made one) and the Bull were 2nd to last in rebounding last season(running without the ball don't work).
 

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O.K. I may be missing something here, but since when have offensives systems dictated fast break points. Most fast break points come off good defense. Forcing turnovers and getting the rebound. Not trying to be a smart ARS#. Don't know that much about basketball, just my observation.

No one questioned the 90's bulls team's ability to fast break when they were forcing turn overs.

The N.J running gunning game kicks in cause the get the rebound and give it to Kidd, if they can't get a fast break they settle into their half court
offense.

The only other point I'd like to make on this matter was something I read in an article in 2000.
The journalist point was though M.J and Pippen were great offensive talents in the triangle they didn't hone/develop (in the early years) their offensive games inside it. Didn't grow up in it.
He wasn't saying that it did't improve their offense production (taking into account getting other's involved) just it's not where they grew up.

I think a slightly different question needs to be answer, not whether we'll win more next season with or without the triangle but whether the players will develop more within it. I can't predict the future but I'd like to think they can.
The only knock I've ever heard on the triangle is that it's complicated, so hopefully drumming it into the guys early will help.
 

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Some really good points by just about everyone. Now, lets consider a few facts.

Last season, 9 of the league's top 10 defensive teams were playoff teams, including the two finalists, New Jersey (5) and the Lakers (9).

Last season, 8 of the top 10 teams that allowed the fewest turnovers were playoff teams.

The Bulls ranked 23rd in terms of points allowed and 22nd in terms of turnovers committed.

Last season, 7 of the top 10 rebounding teams were playoff teams, including the Nets (8) and the Lakers (3). The Bulls ranked 28th in rebounding.

It's very difficult for a teams to successfully play an up tempo game when they don't rebound or protect the ball. That makes for alot of easy buckets by the opposition through put backs and breakaways. The proof lies in the fact that the Bulls were dead last (29th) in opponents' FG%.

More than anything else this very young team needs dicipline. As athletic as this team is, turning them loose on the court will result in nothing more than alot of high scoring losses.

This team has so much to learn. How to play position defense, how to run a controlled break, and most importantly, how to run effective offensive sets when quality opponents take control of the game's tempo and force these Baby Bulls to work for each shot. And make no mistake about it...good teams know how to control tempo. It starts by turning up the dial defensively and extends to executing their offensive sets with a minimum number of mistakes (turnovers).

The triangle will eventually teach these Bulls the dicipline they need to succeed. Combine that with a genuine committment to playing effective team defense and that's when you'll really see this team take advantage of their superior athletic prowess. It all just takes time. I think Songcycle said it best:

Granted, the triangle takes time and experience to learn and initially will cost a young team some games, but we are not going anywhere this year anyway. The discipline involved is good for our youth and each year they will get better at it.

Truer words were never spoken. This team is still very much a work in progress. It hasn't even begun to approach what some might consider a finished product. Expect inconsistancy. Expect hesitation and confusion. But at the same time, expect improvement over the long haul.
 

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The condition on that being true is maintaining a constant direction. This means, no major roster moves, no major coaching changes, and a decision to STICK with the triangle or to give it up completely.

But yes. The Bulls are not going to be super amazing just yet, but I think teams will begin taking them a little more seriously, when they show flashes of what they might end up being.
 

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Truly outstanding posts.

To echo some of the posts, as "educated" Bulls' fans, we need to be realistic and understand that, while the Bulls clearly have more talent than they have since the dynasty, they're extremely young and this is unlikely to be a playoff year.

This being the case, we need to look at the longer-term development of this team. Learning a solid, multi-option team-oriented halfcourt offense will help this team when it's ready to make some real noise. The triangle isn't magical, but it is that sort of offense.

When we evaluate whatever happens this season, we need to do so with an eye to the future. The good news is that, if JK, BC and the players are patient, this could be a very, very good team.
 
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