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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Are Gordon and Chandler's strengths' best utilized and weaknesses' best hidden coming off the bench? The brass might have issue with bringing a $60 million dollar player off the bench, and Gordon might have issues with going back there (and consequently not resign here), but I think the Bulls would be well served to have their offseason goal to be to aquire sufficient talent to move these two talented but flawed players back to the bench.

Also, and Skiles had a quote about this once again last night, bringing Gordon off the bench would be an opportunity to get some size next to Kirk in the backcourt.
 

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i think it's crucial for the bulls to get a big SG to start with Kirk next season. Ben is much better utilized coming off the bench, to be "the scorer" he is, imo. he would still be looking at decent minutes. i think it would be best for the team.

that is if Ben isn't part of a draft day trade that brings us a veteran/star type. and i could see that happening.

as far as Chandler, i'd keep him as a starter, frankly. he just needs a PF/C up there with him who can attract the double team.

yeah, yeah, yeah.
 

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mizenkay said:
i think it's crucial for the bulls to get a big SG to start with Kirk next season. Ben is much better utilized coming off the bench, to be "the scorer" he is, imo. he would still be looking at decent minutes. i think it would be best for the team.

that is if Ben isn't part of a draft day trade that brings us a veteran/star type. and i could see that happening.

as far as Chandler, i'd keep him as a starter, frankly. he just needs a PF/C up there with him who can attract the double team.

yeah, yeah, yeah.
Miz, what do you think about the idea of drafting a big guard with some point guard skills to fill out a long-term three guard rotation (that doesn't include Duhon - sorry bud). We would eventually give primary minutes at guard to these three combo guards, the new one of which would be 2-guard sized:

Hinrich
Gordon
Roy/Carney/Mardy Collins

It is doubtful one of those next players would be ready to start, unless they just ripped **** up in camp. Maybe it's not so important who starts and who doesn't, but that Kirk doesn't have to play shooting guards all game, and we're not always so short out there at guard. I think this is one of the few ways we could salvage the Gordon/Hinrich backcourt. The key is adding the perfect guard to compliment them.
 

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Darius Miles Davis said:
Miz, what do you think about the idea of drafting a big guard with some point guard skills to fill out a long-term three guard rotation (that doesn't include Duhon - sorry bud). We would eventually give primary minutes at guard to these three combo guards, the new one of which would be 2-guard sized:

Hinrich
Gordon
Roy/Carney/Mardy Collins

It is doubtful one of those next players would be ready to start, unless they just ripped **** up in camp. Maybe it's not so important who starts and who doesn't, but that Kirk doesn't have to play shooting guards all game, and we're not always so short out there at guard. I think this is one of the few ways we could salvage the Gordon/Hinrich backcourt. The key is adding the perfect guard to compliment them.

DMD, the miz would be totally down with that scenario. however it is addressed, whether thru the draft or a trade.
 

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mizenkay said:
DMD, the miz would be totally down with that scenario. however it is addressed, whether thru the draft or a trade.
The worse our record slides, the more likely we would be to grab the second of these players drafted with our pick, who is most likely Brewer. We shouldn't try to tank, but we've been trying our best to tank anyway. Our pick is going to continue to get better at this rate.
 

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If we put Gordon on the bench I think his confidence will be shot.He started the whole year.If we package him and our 1st pick for a big man we would still have to draft a guard.We would have a Big man but then we have to start all over at the SG position.We may get a good player but having a rookie as our starting SG scares me! Think about it,if Gordon's gone our backcourt scoring is just about gone. They can try Deng at the 2 spot but I don't think it will work. I don't think we can get a good enough rookie with our 2nd pick in the 1st round.Morrison and Gay will be gone.I say we start Ben next year,we see how he plays when the Bulls have thier inside precence.If he can't cut it, I say we trade him before the deadline next season.If we bench him his stock will fall so will his confidence.

As far as Chandler goes I will make an excuse for him although he does not deserve one.Trust me I'm as dissapointed about his season as everyone else.Chandler need a good big man next to him.We seen what he did last year with Curry.Like I said before he to me is a real nice PF but they have had him playing center a positon he most certainly cannot play.This year is so hard for him because the defence's zone in on him because he is all they have.He never has been a good scorer and that only makes things worse.

So what does 7rings perscribe? Both Chandler and Gordon suffer from "NO MAN IN THE MIDDLE" syndrome.Once the Bulls get thier Big I believe Gordon and Chandler will be cured. :biggrin: Gordon will have his open space again and Chandler will loose all the attention in the paint.Teams will zone in on the Big man and my boys can go to work like they did last year.CURE?
 

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the whole point of getting a big SG in here is so kirk doesn't have to guard opposing 2's everynight. last night he looked like no matter how hard he was trying to gut it out, he is just riding on vapors.

it would be great if ben were capable of this, guarding SG's, but he never will be. and that's not a comment about skill so much as height and strength.

if we are worrying about player's confidence over what is best for the team in terms of producing wins, then, i don't know what to tell you. ben would be part of the three guard rotation, don't worry. i would think coming off the bench with a very defined role that he could excel at would be a boon to his confidence if anything. it's not about who starts but who finishes. (remember last year, it was kirk and ben to close out games)

it's duhon who is the odd man out in DMD's scenario.
 

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7RINGS? said:
If we put Gordon on the bench I think his confidence will be shot.He started the whole year.If we package him and our 1st pick for a big man we would still have to draft a guard.We would have a Big man but then we have to start all over at the SG position.We may get a good player but having a rookie as our starting SG scares me! Think about it,if Gordon's gone our backcourt scoring is just about gone. They can try Deng at the 2 spot but I don't think it will work. I don't think we can get a good enough rookie with our 2nd pick in the 1st round.Morrison and Gay will be gone.I say we start Ben next year,we see how he plays when the Bulls have thier inside precence.If he can't cut it, I say we trade him before the deadline next season.If we bench him his stock will fall so will his confidence.

As far as Chandler goes I will make an excuse for him although he does not deserve one.Trust me I'm as dissapointed about his season as everyone else.Chandler need a good big man next to him.We seen what he did last year with Curry.Like I said before he to me is a real nice PF but they have had him playing center a positon he most certainly cannot play.This year is so hard for him because the defence's zone in on him because he is all they have.He never has been a good scorer and that only makes things worse.

So what does 7rings perscribe? Both Chandler and Gordon suffer from "NO MAN IN THE MIDDLE" syndrome.Once the Bulls get thier Big I believe Gordon and Chandler will be cured. :biggrin: Gordon will have his open space again and Chandler will loose all the attention in the paint.Teams will zone in on the Big man and my boys can go to work like they did last year.CURE?
I'd agree with most everything you said, but Tyson played most of his minutes along side Antonio, not Curry.
 

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mizenkay said:
the whole point of getting a big SG in here is so kirk doesn't have to guard opposing 2's everynight. last night he looked like no matter how hard he was trying to gut it out, he is just riding on vapors. it would be great if ben were capable of this, guarding SG's, but he never will be. and that's not a comment about skill so much as height and strength. if we are worrying about player's confidence over what is best for the team in terms of producing wins, then, i don't know what to tell you. ben would be part of the three guard rotation, don't worry. i would think coming off the bench with a very defined role that he could excel at would be a boon to his confidence if anything. it's not about who starts but who finishes. (remember last year, it was kirk and ben to close out games) it's duhon who is the odd man out in DMD's scenario.
But to add a little more to what you said, Miz, Collins is a 6' 6" point guard, some see Brewer as a 6' 7" point guard, and Roy, though a 2-guard, has some pg skills.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Darius Miles Davis said:
But to add a little more to what you said, Miz, Collins is a 6' 6" point guard, some see Brewer as a 6' 7" point guard, and Roy, though a 2-guard, has some pg skills.
I think Collins is a notch below Brewer and Roy.

I'd love to see the Bulls get O'Bryant or Aldridge and Roy or Brewer.
 

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TripleDouble said:
Are Gordon and Chandler's strengths' best utilized and weaknesses' best hidden coming off the bench? The brass might have issue with bringing a $60 million dollar player off the bench, and Gordon might have issues with going back there (and consequently not resign here), but I think the Bulls would be well served to have their offseason goal to be to aquire sufficient talent to move these two talented but flawed players back to the bench.

Also, and Skiles had a quote about this once again last night, bringing Gordon off the bench would be an opportunity to get some size next to Kirk in the backcourt.
I totally agree. Some players are just great bench players. I mean that doesn't mean they're bad. Is Eddy Curry, who starts, ever gonna be better than career bench player Michael Cooper? Not a chance in Hades. Some players are pretty GOOD matchups against everyone they face like Hinrich. Some players are GREAT matchups against SOME other players and crappy matchups against others. Tyson and Gordon to me seem like players that you can still get 25-30 minutes a game, but you pick your spots as far as who to use them against. They are two energy players who I'd much rather see playing the second and fourth quarters in their entirety and then getting 6-12 more minutes elsewhere than playing the first and third and having little left to close things out.

Guys, building a team like last years is NOT that hard. We don't NEED to get a starting big SG to be as good as we were last year if we replace Eddy and AD. If we get a scorer down low we can keep Ben on ice for a while. But say we got all three. Eddy replacement, AD replacement, big SG. What if we drafted O'Bryant and the best player left out of Brewer/Carney and Roy and then signed Reggie Evans or someone who reminds us of AD (I wanted to say Harrington but didn't want to get torched with "he's only 6'8", he's a SF!," but the player we get to replace AD does have to bring versatility.

Last year

Curry, Harrington
Davis, Chandler
Deng, Nocioni, Griffin
Hinrich, Gordon, Piatkowski
Duhon, Pargo

Next year

O'Bryant, Chandler
Evans, Davis (back on a 2-mill per deal, if not we keep Songaila), O. Harrington
Deng, Nocioni
Roy, Gordon
Hinrich, Duhon

Now if you separate yourself with the obsession that we have to sign a marquee free agent, that team looks very similar to last year. But with a better and more cohesive guard rotation. I like Harrington better than Evans but don't want to get roasted. I prefer BOTH over Pryzbilla.
 

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mizenkay said:
DMD, the miz would be totally down with that scenario. however it is addressed, whether thru the draft or a trade.

Uh Oh,
The Miz now refers to herself in the third person. Deng you Bulls!!!!! You have infected one of our last bastions of sanity! LOL.

The Chifaninca says that we can't worry about Gordon or Chandler and how their contracts or ego are affected by coming off the bench. They will either step it up, fall apart or be traded for that last missing piece.

They have not been nearly consistent enough, nor contributed enough to be "guaranteed" a starting spot or big minutes.
 
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chifaninca said:
Uh Oh,
The Miz now refers to herself in the third person. Deng you Bulls!!!!! You have infected one of our last bastions of sanity! LOL.

The Chifaninca says that we can't worry about Gordon or Chandler and how their contracts or ego are affected by coming off the bench. They will either step it up, fall apart or be traded for that last missing piece.

They have not been nearly consistent enough, nor contributed enough to be "guaranteed" a starting spot or big minutes.
Hmm...

The Rhy?

A couple more losses in a row and I might just start referring to myself as Mr. R.
 

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i think "the Der" has a nice vibe to it.



the thing that always kind of killed me about the whole ben should be a starter "controversy" is that it really didn't play to his strengths in terms of what he can bring. we saw what he brought off the bench last year, and it was good.

this year, not so much. his one-dimensionality has been really exposed, imo.
 

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mizenkay said:
the thing that always kind of killed me about the whole ben should be a starter "controversy" is that it really didn't play to his strengths in terms of what he can bring. we saw what he brought off the bench last year, and it was good.

this year, not so much. his one-dimensionality has been really exposed, imo.
I don't think it's his one-dimensionality that's been exposed as much as it's been his inconsistancy. He's simply not consistant enough to be counted on night in and night out. Of course that is exaserbated by his lack of all around game -- if his shots not falling what else is he good for? -- but I think we knew that last season. Untill he can be counted on for 15 + or so every single night, he should be on the bench.
 

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well yeah, but

Of course that is exaserbated by his lack of all around game -- if his shots not falling what else is he good for? -- but I think we knew that last season.
that's kinda what i mean by one dimensionality!

and i like the guy. think he has a knock out talent. it's better suited coming off the bench, imo.

i think we are in agreement here.


:)
 

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Gordon off the bench is nice in theory but can it really happen? Rumors were coming out every other week that Ben was unhappy coming off the bench earlier in the season and we'd have little reason to think otherwise if he lost his starting spot next year. If Gordon isn't viewed as a starter on this offensively deprived team then should he even be on the team? My fear is that Pax will do the same with him that he did with Eddy and Jamal - wait until his value is at its lowest and then attempt to move him.

Personally, I wouldn't mind a swap with Indiana where JO and Gordon are the principals. Gordon + Noc + Sweets for JO? Might be possible if Larry is really looking to clean house.
 

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mizenkay said:
i think "the Der" has a nice vibe to it.



the thing that always kind of killed me about the whole ben should be a starter "controversy" is that it really didn't play to his strengths in terms of what he can bring. we saw what he brought off the bench last year, and it was good.

this year, not so much. his one-dimensionality has been really exposed, imo.
:banana:

Can you say Vinny Johnson?
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
mizenkay said:
well yeah, but



that's kinda what i mean by one dimensionality!

and i like the guy. think he has a knock out talent. it's better suited coming off the bench, imo.

i think we are in agreement here.


:)
I suppose it really is a dozen of one and two half dozen of the other. My point is that I don't think anyone expected Ben to be Scottie Pippen. He was expected to be a scorer and that's it (a Michael Redd type_. However, he's not nearly consistant enough at this only strength of his to be a starter.
 

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for those not in the know, i am a huge gordon fan; i believe he has allen iverson potential. it all depends on how the team develops and what role he's asked to play. it's obvious he can score, but i think the bull is looking for ben to develop a more well rounded game. this will take time; sooner, though than later, imo. i hope the fans can be patient enough for the kid to reach his potential.

further, as previously stated, comparisons to he and crawford are way off base; crawford was going to lose his spot to jay williams (pre-injury) if the truth be told. while both are streak shooters, ben's shot is far more effective day in day out. crawford's not nearly as much. also, crawford is mentally weak; he will play his way out of new york; you read it here first.

when the bull rectifies its hole in the middle, the games of hinrich, gordon and duhon will be far more effective than we've witnessed this season. i know i'm not ready to write off none of these three. addition-wise, sure a bigger guy (guard) will fit in somewhere, but the inside prescence is what i believe paxson is going to address wholeheartedly this off-season and through the draft.
 
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