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Who's the 10th best defender in NBA history?

  • Dennis Johnson

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  • Alvin Robertson

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  • Bruce Bowen

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  • Michael Cooper

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  • Bobby Jones

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  • Dave DeBusschere

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  • Kevin McHale

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  • Ben Wallace

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  • Patrick Ewing

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  • Nate Thurmond

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  • Alonzo Mourning

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  • Mark Eaton

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this got stupid as soon as everyone decided that bigs were more impactful than wing players and that would be the sole criteria for this exercise - you might as well do Mark Eaton next and then Manute Bol and youre missing Elmore Smith from your list
 

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this got stupid as soon as everyone decided that bigs were more impactful than wing players and that would be the sole criteria for this exercise - you might as well do Mark Eaton next and then Manute Bol and youre missing Elmore Smith from your list
"Everyone" did not decide that. I, personally, have never agreed with those people.
 

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Clyde Frazier is out to an early lead.
 

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this got stupid as soon as everyone decided that bigs were more impactful than wing players and that would be the sole criteria for this exercise - you might as well do Mark Eaton next and then Manute Bol and youre missing Elmore Smith from your list
The basketball hoop is in the paint. That's why bigs get more recognition as defenders, because they ultimately have the job of protecting the rim.

Wing/Point defenders can be special, as we know, but you don't decide not to attack the rim because Payton is stood infront of you.
 

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Michael Jordan. I've heard opposing coaches remark that MJ could basically take away half the court... that they just wouldn't run plays to his side. 3x steals leader (for a guy that played great on the ball defense, not a reckless gambler) 9x all-defensive 1st team, 87-88 Defensive Player of the Year.
 

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The basketball hoop is in the paint. That's why bigs get more recognition as defenders, because they ultimately have the job of protecting the rim.

Wing/Point defenders can be special, as we know, but you don't decide not to attack the rim because Payton is stood infront of you.
so vote for Mark Eaton or Manute Bol - they blocked as many shots as anyone and hold 4 of the top 5 spots for single season block totals - if what you say is valid you need to vote for Manute Bol right now because blocking shots is more important to defense than anything and defines what being a great defender is all about and I want to see Shawn Bradley on this list pronto, I dont see his name anywhere and where's Elmore Smith?
 

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Play stupid, that's cool with me. I was merely pointing out why it's easier for a big to get recognition as a top tier defender, if that's too complex for you, like I said, that's cool bro.
 

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well plainly it's easier for a big to get recognition that's clear from the results thus far but blocking lots of shots doesnt make someone a 'better defender' and there's lots of different ways to think about this question rather than casting it the way you have

1) people shoot from all over the floor not just in the paint (Ray Allen will be happy to let you guard the rim all day long, go ahead and stand back there)
2) perimeter players are increasingly the dominant scorers on most teams (and fewer and fewer power players are effective in the post)
3) DJ switching teams from PHX to BOS had every bit as significant an impact on those team's defenses as Dikembe moving from DEN to ATL (cf earlier thread)
4) some of the great defenses of all time (like the Bulls and Bad Boy Pistons) didnt have dominant defensive anchors (earlier thread) so the cat can be skinned lots of different ways
5) and now my point vis Shawn Bradley, Manute Bol etc - it's silly in that it makes your contention look absurd but that's different than playing stupid

so what is it that you dont get?
 

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while Alvin Robertson was on the floor for the 1985-86 Spurs (at least) 6% of all opponent possessions ended without a shot even being fired - know why? hint: it's like 6% of an opponent's offense was just stolen away from them somehow
 

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I understand you enjoy playing devils advocate.

You give the example of Ray Allen, I believe the majority of the list selected above as the best defenders could track him from the perimiter and in the paint. Did Alvin Robertson have that kind of coverage in his game? Small guys are limited in who they can defend, but the basketball hoop isn't moving anywhere so the bigs of this world will have a shot at everybody.
 

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I understand you enjoy playing devils advocate.

You give the example of Ray Allen, I believe the majority of the list selected above as the best defenders could track him from the perimiter and in the paint. Did Alvin Robertson have that kind of coverage in his game? Small guys are limited in who they can defend, but the basketball hoop isn't moving anywhere so the bigs of this world will have a shot at everybody.
I count one guy on the list who could guard Ray Allen (Scottie Pippen) and another maybe (young, young Dennis Rodman). I don't know what you mean by "track" him... but none of those other guys would have any business trying to guard Ray Allen
 

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and the flip side of this is that bigs increasingly have no one to cover inside - they cant cover wing players like Allen(that's stupid - let alone someone like Kobe or Wade) and there are less and less inside threats for them to deal with
 

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The basketball hoop is in the paint. That's why bigs get more recognition as defenders, because they ultimately have the job of protecting the rim.

Wing/Point defenders can be special, as we know, but you don't decide not to attack the rim because Payton is stood infront of you.
and btw you cant - it's not a matter of deciding, he decides for you, you cant attack the rim because you cant get by him - it's called defense
 

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and the flip side of this is that bigs increasingly have no one to cover inside - they cant cover wing players (that's stupid) and there are less and less inside threats
I specificially said the majority of those defenders already selected could be enough of a threat on the outside to disrupt a shot.

Alvin Robertson is not stopping a backing up Shaquille O'Neal. A prime Garnett/Rodman/Pippen could step out on Allen, stay with him if he tried to blow by, and if Allen kicked it to his mythological team mate Shaq, they could switch his man and put pressure on Shaq. (Probably a bad example, but I'm trying to cook dinner as well as engage in this).

Besides, what do you want to give up? A rangey 3 or a certain 2? I think we've all played enough basketball to know the answer to that question.
 

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and btw you cant - it's not a matter of deciding, he decides for you, you cant attack the rim because you cant get by him - it's called defense
Nobody ever got by Payton? :laugh:

Oh and how many bigs did Payton take out of the game in his career?
 

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Nobody ever got by Payton? :laugh:

Oh and how many bigs did Payton take out of the game in his career?
do you want to see a video of 6'1" KJ dunking on Hakeem? what does 'never' have to do with it? even the great shot blockers got dunked on routinely

also is it really your serious contention that any of these centers on the list could consistently (not ever or never, just consistently) cover perimeter scorers? because I would love to see Dikembe trying to chase Mike or Kobe around
 
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