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Who's the 7th best defender in NBA history?

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Discussion Starter #1

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I would LOVE to see someone defending a perimeter player over guys like D-Rob, Mutombo and Eaton as a defender.

Yes, that includes Pippen, whose inclusion at #5 only reeks of peeps having little knowledge of the game of basketball... ;)
 

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I would LOVE to see someone defending a perimeter player over guys like D-Rob, Mutombo and Eaton as a defender.

Yes, that includes Pippen, whose inclusion at #5 only reeks of peeps having little knowledge of the game of basketball... ;)
ok, let's test your knowledge then

the bucks were routinely a top defensive squad in the early to mid 80s in terms of Drtg and Opp stats without the advantage of a great defensive center, how?

same could be said about the Bulls of the 90s, again how?
 

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ok, let's test your knowledge then

the bucks were routinely a top defensive squad in the early to mid 80s in terms of Drtg and Opp stats without the advantage of a great defensive center, how?

same could be said about the Bulls of the 90s, again how?
Let's keep things in perspective: in this thread we are picking players based on their individual defensive impact, right?

Considering that fact, my point was/is that a great defensive big has, almost invariably (sp?), a greater defensive impact in a game than a great defensive perimeter player.

Yes, i know that not all defensive qualities a player has show up on the stat sheet, and yes, a great defensive permiter player can and will disrupt the opposing teams offense.

But bottom line: in the game of basketball, you got to score the basket; you have more chances in doing so the more you shoot closer to the rim; hence, a great defensive center who will make it difficult for you to score (by protecting the rim) has more impact than a great defensive permiter player that difficults you design an offensive move.

About your questions, the answer is simple: team defense (again, team defense is much more valuable than individual defense - and we are voting for the latter, here).
You don't forcefully need a dominant defensive center to play good team defense. Obviously, you can't have a team of revolving-doors and expect to stop anyone, so you gotta have players who will be willing and able to play adequately team defense.

The Bucks had Pressy and Moncrief and a young Terry Cummings. the Bulls had 3 of the best defenders at the time playing in the starting 5!
And, off course, the coach's defensive schemes. Even though he later became kind of a joke due to his offense-only teams, Nelson was a good coach back in the day. And Phil Jackson? Yeah.

The showtime Lakers were top10 in drtg eventhough Kareem was no longer a dominant defensive center because they played good team defense (their best defender was actually on the bench), orchestrated by a great coach in riles, and eventhough Magic, Scott, Worthy and Green weren't exactly known for their defense.

So, eventhough not every good defensive team has to have a great defensive center, he impacts your team defense the most.
That's, at least, my HO.
 

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so having elite wing defenders cant lead to top defenses too? that's just systems and coaching

and

centers dont also benefit from team defensive schemes and coaching?

those are your two points essentially?

because you can be just as effective disrupting at the point of attack as you can backstopping as the last line of defense and the 3 point line has reduced the amount of impact a great defensive center can have because it has opened the floor up
 

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so elite wing defenders cant lead to top defenses too? because: bucks, bulls, heat last year etc

and

centers dont also benefit from team defensive schemes?

those are your two points essentially?

because you can be just as effective disrupting the point of attack as you can backstopping as the last line of defense and the 3 point line has reduced the amount of impact a great defensive center can have because it has opened the floor up
My point is that a great defensive center has more impact than a great perimeter defender.

You quoted me saying "I would LOVE to see someone defending a perimeter player over guys like D-Rob, Mutombo and Eaton as a defender.". I'm not talking average defensive centers, here, but elite ones.

So, give me all your Pippens, Moncriefs, Paytons, Bowens, etc., that i'd prefer a guy that will rebound much, block a ton, alter shots a ton, and all-around make you not drive to the hoop (that is, if he is not amassing PFs like there is no tomorrow! ;) ).

I'm not refuting your points, who are valid for me. Wing defenders CAN lead to top defenses too. And centers (in a minor way) also benefit from team defensive schemes.
But you CAN anchor your defense around one great defensive center. Not much the same regarding one permiter player.
 

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ok, let's test your knowledge then

the bucks were routinely a top defensive squad in the early to mid 80s in terms of Drtg and Opp stats without the advantage of a great defensive center, how?

same could be said about the Bulls of the 90s, again how?
The refs were supposed to call it illegal defense actually, but they usually got away with it. They had a great zone defense, which was technically not allowed.

Actually most people wouldn't know it, but that Bucks team also had Dudley Bradley and he is one of a very tiny number of perimeter players who made a long career as a pure defensive specialist. He was probably just as good a defender as Moncrief was in most ways. He just couldn't do much offensively and that kept him off the floor for major minutes. You really can't give Moncrief that much credit for the Bucks team defense, because that team was loaded with really good defenders.
 

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The refs were supposed to call it illegal defense actually, but they usually got away with it. They had a great zone defense, which was technically not allowed.
hey if it's not called, it's not illegal

Actually most people wouldn't know it, but that Bucks team also had Dudley Bradley and he is one of a very tiny number of perimeter players who made a long career as a pure defensive specialist. He was probably just as good a defender as Moncrief was in most ways. He just couldn't do much offensively and that kept him off the floor for major minutes.
he played there one season, about 13 mpg but sure he was pretty good defensively (not sure I'd put him on Syd's cloud though)
 

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in 82-83 the Celtics were 7th in Drtg and 10th in Opp ppg, in 83-84 they were 3rd and 4th in those stat categories respectively

in 82-83 the Phoenix Suns were 4th in Drtg and 3rd in Opp ppg, in 83-84 they were 14th and 14th in those stat categories respectively

in 82-83 Dennis Johnson was a Phoenix Sun, in 83-84 he was a Celtic
 

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. You really can't give Moncrief that much credit for the Bucks team defense, because that team was loaded with really good defenders.
pressey, moncrief and who? Cummings was ok positionally, your man dudley played 60 games one season at 13mpg. so that leaves Rickey Pierce, Randy Breuer, Craig Hodges, and Alton Lister (not bad shot blocker but limited minutes because of fouls) - none of those guys were "really good defenders"
 

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Discussion Starter #18
e-monk made the point for me. Those Bucks teams weren't exactly loaded defensively.
 

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pressey, moncrief and who? Cummings was ok positionally, your man dudley played 60 games one season at 13mpg. so that leaves Rickey Pierce, Randy Breuer, Craig Hodges, and Alton Lister (not bad shot blocker but limited minutes because of fouls) - none of those guys were "really good defenders"
They called Craig Hodges "Highway 14" in Chicago... the fastest route to the hoop. Really, it needs to be narrowed down by year... guys like Sikma showed up midway through the decade too.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Yeah, so, this is a 3-way tie. Can we get some more votes in here?
 
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