Professional and College Basketball Forums banner

What should the Jazz do with Malone and Stockton and Donyell Marshall?

  • Trade them for young guys--Mike Miller, Corey Maggette, Desmond Mason, Jeff McInnis, & Joe Forte

    Votes: 4 66.7%
  • Hold onto them so we can get that #8 seed in the playoffs ONE MORE TIME! .500 or bust!

    Votes: 2 33.3%
1 - 8 of 8 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,864 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
We all know that the contracts of Karl Malone and John Stockton expire at the end of next season, correct? And that Stockton will retire (as he has nothing left to prove, he's not interested in playing for a lottery team)? And that, if The Mailman sticks around, it will only be for selfish reasons--it will only be because he knows that he's the best scoring option the Jazz have, that he'll be able to stick around for a while until he breaks Kareem's all-time scoring record--and these reasons will set the Jazz back 2-3 years.

So remember how the Celtics refused to trade their aging stars when they had a chance? When Bird and McHale quit playing, the Celtics had NOTHING TO SHOW for it--NOTHING! And they sucked for TEN YEARS as a result!

The Jazz don't need to let this happen to them, PERIOD! You're not going to get a LOT for these two guys--but you can get SOMETHING! Which is better than NOTHING!

And I ALSO think you can get SOMETHING--not much, but SOMETHING--for Donyell Marshall in a sign-and-trade. I mean, come ON, you don't want yr go-to guy to EVER be DONYELL MARSHALL, do you? And I LIKE Donyell Marshall!

SO! Here are THREE TRADES that the Jazz can pull off--three trades that ARE TOTALLY REALISTIC, three trades that TOTALLY WORK according to the salary cap trade rules--so start reading, peoples!

Trade #1: Karl Malone to the Orlando Magic; Mike Miller, Darrell Armstrong, Horace Grant, Patrick Ewing, Don Reid, Jerryl Sasser, and Jud Buechler to the Jazz

RATIONALE: The contracts of Grant, Ewing, Reid, and Buechler all expire after next season, they don't figure into the Magic's plans next year at all, really. Orlando needs help inside NOW, they need somebody who can score inside and rebound NOW. The Mailman's contract expires after next season, so Orlando has some options--they can go after a free agent big guy (Duncan, Jermaine O'Neal, Olowokandi, etc.) or they can re-sign The Mailman to a reasonable contract extension. WHATEVER. All Orlando is REALLY giving up here is Mike Miller--who they clearly don't like all that much, especially if Grant Hill is healthy, they don't want Miller taking minutes away from Hill--and Darrell Armstrong. BIG WHOOP.

AS FOR THE JAZZ: Every single one of those contracts expire at the end of next season except for the contracts of Mike Miller and Jerryl Sasser, who make a combined $4.4 mil in 2003-04. So the Jazz are still getting rid of a LOT of payroll in this trade--AND they're getting a nice young player (Miller)!

SO FAR, SO GOOD!

Trade #2: Donyell Marshall (sign-and-trade), Darrell Armstrong, and Greg Ostertag to the Sonics; Kenny Anderson, Desmond Mason, Vitaly Potapenko, and Joe Forte to the Jazz

RATIONALE: The Sonics are ECSTATIC about dumping the loathsome Vin Baker on the Celtics--but, let's face it, they suddenly have only the young Vladimir Radmanovic at the power forward position. I just don't think that's going to work. Donyell Marshall is a nice player, he excelled in the Jazz up-tempo offense--so he should be a perfect fit for the Sonics' up-tempo game, and he can be had for a GREAT price. The best offer Marshall can get from any team besides the Jazz is the midcap exception, around $4.6 mil. The Jazz can re-sign him to a slightly better offer--say, three years, $17 million. That's a GREAT PRICE for this guy! And Armstrong gives the Sonics a legit veteran backup combo guard--HE should be a great fit in Seattle, too. Ostertag's contract sucks, but so does Potapenko's--and Ostertag's contract is up after TWO years, while Potapenko's deal has THREE years to go. The Sonics hate to lose Mason, but hell, they already have their SG of the present and the future in Brent Barry. And they REALLY NEED to get a power forward.

AS FOR THE JAZZ: Like I said, you don't want Donyell Marshall as yr go-to guy EVER. And Darrell Armstrong isn't exactly a part of any longterm solution, is he? You're stuck with Potapenko's contract for three years, but he makes less money per year (although SLIGHTLY more overall) than does Ostertag. And YOU'VE FINALLY GOTTEN RID OF GREG OSTERTAG! The key here is, of course, Desmond Mason, who will be "the SG of the future" for this team. And, who knows, Joe Forte might develop into a keeper, too! Kenny Anderson's contract is up after next season, and he obviously won't be re-signed (at least not to a $9.2 mil/yr extension!). And KEEP IN MIND that Anderson will have a BIG YEAR next year, he'll come to camp in the best shape of his life, ready to play, totally focused--because he's playing for a new contract!

TWO DOWN, ONE TO GO!

Trade #3: John Stockton to the Clippers; Jeff McInnis (sign-and-trade) and Corey Maggette to the Jazz

RATIONALE: The Clippers are in DIRE NEED of a veteran leader. They are also in DIRE NEED of a point guard (I mean, come ON, this Marko Jaric kid isn't going to step right in and be a star, people!). They ALSO don't want to trade for either Baron Davis or Andre Miller--they're going to have ENOUGH problems trying to re-sign Michael Olowokandi AND Elton Brand AND Lamar Odom (AND... the list goes on and on). And DO NOT FORGET who the owner of this team is: Donald Sterling, the biggest cheapa$$ owner in the NBA. ANYWAY, this team needs to make The Big Leap Forward next season, enough hype, this team needs to make the playoffs, and I'm not talking the #8 seed here, either. John Stockton is EXACTLY what this team needs. And they give up nothing to get him, really--they weren't going to re-sign McInnis ANYWAY, and Maggette is a restricted free agent after next season, so the Clips are PROBABLY not going to re-sign him, either!

AS FOR THE JAZZ: McInnis isn't a star, he is what he is--a perfectly solid starting NBA point guard. And, like Donyell Marshall, the dude can be had for NOTHING--he's not getting an offer better than the midcap exception ($4.6 mil) from ANYBODY. And it's looking like he's not even going to be able to get THAT, to be honest! SO, the Clips sign him to a three-year, $14 million extension and ship him to the Jazz. The key here, though, is Corey Maggette--this guy will never be a star, but he's an incredible athlete, and he should be a starter-caliber player in this league for a LONG time.

Ladies and germs, HERE ARE YOUR 2002-03 UTAH JAZZ!

PG Kenny Anderson--Jeff McInnis--Raul Lopez
SG Desmond Mason--Joe Forte--DeShawn Stevenson
SF Mike Miller--Corey Maggette
PF Andrei Kirilenko--Horace Grant--Scott Padgett
C John Amaechi--Vitaly Potapenko--Curtis Borchardt

End of the bench filler dudes: Patrick Ewing (who could and obviously should retire before the season starts), Don Reid, Jud Buechler, Jerryl Sasser (who is obviously a BUST, people)

Total 2002-03 payroll: $44-$45 million

Keep in mind that the following guys' contracts expire at the end of the 2002-03 season, these guys won't be re-signed, obviously: Ewing, Reid, Buechler, Grant, Anderson. Total amount of money freed up when they leave: $19.7 million. DAMN! That's a ton of money!

And THESE guys will all be unrestricted free agents after next season, the Jazz will need to decide what to do with them: Corey Maggette and Scott Padgett.

Everybody else is locked up for at LEAST the next two seasons (i.e., the 2002-03 and 2003-04 seasons)! Take a look at that young nucleus one more time:

Andrei Kirilenko, Mike Miller, Desmond Mason, Corey Maggette, Jeff McInnis, Raul Lopez, Joe Forte, Curtis Borchardt, DeShawn Stevenson

That's nine guys--five of them (the first five on the list) look like they're all legit NBA players for the next 6-7 years, we'll see about the other four (the last four on the list). But what does this list look like without the above trades? Like this:

Andrei Kirilenko, Raul Lopez, Curtis Borchardt, DeShawn Stevenson

Now you tell ME which young nucleus is better!

And don't give me any of this "Hey, that's a nice young team, they should be able to make the playoffs" horse$hit--this new 2002-03 Jazz team SUUUUUUUUUUUCKS, you're looking at one of the 5-6 worst teams in the NBA here, people! BUT this isn't about NEXT season--this is about THE FUTURE! This is about avoiding the fate of the Bird-McHale Celtics! YOU GOTTA GET SOMETHING FOR MALONE AND STOCKTON (and MARSHALL, too) WHILE YOU STILL CAN! Do it!

Let's hear yr feedback, peoples! What do you think?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,019 Posts
All three trades have some problems
Trade #1
Malone and Grant both have no trade clauses. Will both OK it? Does Grant want come to Utah for his final year? Didn't grant sign in Orlando because that is the only place he was willing to play? Does Malone want to go to Orlando? Maybe. If Malone is traded the team he goes to is probably going to have to ante up a contract extension. That would eliminate any chance of Orlando having caproom next summer. Also Orlando can't trade Jud Buechler because they have already waived him. Didn't Ewing announce his retirement? Is he playing this year?

Trade #2
Donyell isn't going to sign a 3 yr $17M contract. He has already said he will take the 4.6M exception rather than sign a 3yr $21M contract. He looking for a raise over the 6.5M he made last year and 6 years. You are probably looking 6-7 yrs 50-60M or so. Is he bluffing? Maybe Maybe not. Sept 22 is the earliest that this trade can take place because of Boston/Seattle trade.

Trade #3
Not going to happen. Stockton has a no trade clause. I don't think he will approve any trade. The only trade he would consider would be to a team that will win a championship for sure. That kind of limits your trade options.

Good ideas that would get something for Stockton/Malone but very unlikely.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,864 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
JoeF...

Some thoughts...

1) Thanks for pointing out that Horace Grant has a no-trade clause. I'd be a little surprised if he wouldn't waive it, though--that would mean that HE would be the JERK that was holding this thing up! And I don't see why The Mailman is going to need the Magic to agree to a contract extension first, really--but maybe I'm missing something here.

2) Okay, so Orlando waived Jud Buechler--but he's still owed $4.1 mil next year! Why the hell can't they trade that contract? You seem to know quite a bit about how this stuff works--any way you could point me in the right direction for an online source that does a good job explaining these sorts of rules?

3) As for Donyell not taking a 3 year $17 mil deal--well, I think this is going to end up being the big story this offseason, i.e., that these top 2002 free agents can be had for CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP, that they don't have any choice in the matter. If the ONE TEAM out there--the Clips--that has a lot of cap room right now had any sense, THEY would sign some of these guys to rock bottom deals, THEN package them later on with Corey Maggette or Lamar Odom or whoever for an Andre Miller or a Baron Davis (or SOMEBODY!). In any event, I really do think that Donyell is going to settle for something like a 3 year $17 deal--sure, he can take a 1 year $4.6 mil deal from somebody, THEN be a free agent again NEXT offseason--but I'm not sure that the money's going to be there NEXT offseason, either. Remember, the US economy is possibly (probably?) on the verge of entering a recession, which means that second- and third-tier players like Donyell Marshall will have to settle for a LOT less than what they were hoping for. SERIOUSLY, if the economy isn't in better shape next summer, Donyell Marshall will WISH that he had signed some 3 year $17 mil deal, count on it!

4) You're probably right about Stockton not wanting to play anywhere else. But I really think that Jazz management can easily sell Stockton and Malone on the idea that, if they don't let the organization get some young players in return for them via trade, that the organization will be set back for YEARS as a result. In other words, if Stockton and Malone refuse to let the Jazz trade them, they are being SELFISH, they are BETRAYING the organization that took care of them for their entire careers. PLUS they could talk that "Here's a chance for you to play for a contender again" talk, which always seems to work.

IN ANY EVENT! This Jazz team needs to do SOMETHING with these guys if they want to avoid the fate of the Bird-McHale Celtics. Don't you think?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,864 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Also, JoeF... HERE'S a way to make that Malone-to-Orlando trade work...

You could substitute Andrew DeClercq (another dude whose contract expires after next season) or a re-signed Troy Hudson (something reasonable, say, three years $8 mil) for Jud Buechler, that would work, too.

Let's say it's Jud Buechler, and that the Magic re-sign Hudson to that deal and keep him for themselves. Here's what the Magic would look like for next year:

PG Jacque Vaughn (28 minutes/game)
SG Tracy McGrady (40 minutes/game)
SF Grant Hill (28 minutes/game)
PF Pat Garrity (8 minutes/game at PF, 20 minutes/game at SF)
C Karl Malone (22 minutes/game at C, 10 minutes/game at PF)

Backups:

Troy Hudson (20 minutes/game at PG, 8 minutes/game at SG)
Steven Hunter (20 minutes/game at C)
Ryan Humphrey (18 minutes/game at PF)
Olumide Oyediji (12 minutes/game at PF, 6 minutes/game at C)

Yeah, I think Malone can play C for this team, especially in the Eastern Conference--he's pretty much gonna have to! The team REALLY needs to go out and sign a veteran big guy, somebody who can give the team 20 minutes/game--that way, Hunter can play 12 instead of 20 minutes/game, Humphrey and Oyediji can each play 12 instead of 18 minutes/game. Of course, it's gonna have to be somebody who is willing to play for not very much money--BUT, keep in mind that, every single offseason, there are ALWAYS a few veteran free agents who get left out in the cold, who have to settle for the minimum. There are veteran big guys out there who are probably only getting one-year offers--the Magic could give them less money per year, BUT make them a THREE-year offer. I'm talking about 3 years $5 million here--which is better than 1 year $2.5 million, don't you think?

Here are a few possibilities, some veteran big guys who can give the Magic 20 minutes/game at PF/C--keep in mind that some of these guys aren't exactly centers, but that the Magic don't exactly have much of a choice here--they were undersized last season, they'll be undersized again this season! Here's the list of possibilities--some are old fogies, some are unproven young guys, some are middle-aged mediocrities:

Charles Oakley
Lawrence Funderburke
Mark Blount
Vladimir Stepania
Sean Marks
Brian Skinner
Michael Doleac
Darvin Ham
Hanno Mottala
Kevin Willis
Carlos Rogers
Grant Long
Mark Pope
Sam Mitchell
Gary Trent
Loren Woods
John Wallace

OR, you could make RODNEY ROGERS (who would be a GREAT fit down here) a one-year offer for $1.5 mil or whatever--yeah, that's a LOT less than he is worth, but the money just isn't out there this offseason for these guys--he could have a BIG YEAR next year for Orlando and THEN re-enter the free agent fray NEXT offseason, when there will be way more money to be made. This is a longshot, obviously--but it's worth a shot. You could point out to Rogers that he'd be getting guaranteed minutes for an Eastern Conference contender--probably 28 minutes/game! THEN you'd be able to REALLY cut back on the minutes you're giving Hunter, Oyediji, and Humphrey--you could cut the minutes of all three players in HALF (Hunter from 20 to 10, Humphrey from 18 to 8, Oyediji from 18 to 10)--AND you could let Rogers play all his minutes at C (just like he did for Boston this past season), which means that you could let Malone play ALL of his minutes at PF--take a look:

PF Malone (32 minutes/game, all at PF)
C Rogers (28 minutes/game, all at C)

Backups:

Garrity (20 minutes/game at SF, 8 at PF)
Humphrey (8 minutes/game at PF)
Hunter (10 minutes/game at C)
Oyediji (10 minutes/game at C)

Makes sense to me! AND, if you can't lure Rodney Rogers--which is the LIKELY scenario--you could sign somebody ELSE to play C, somebody ELSE who would allow Malone to move over to PF full-time--and, on the list above, there are several possibilities, as you can see.
 

·
kiss my grits
Joined
·
18,629 Posts
Nah, this is a pipe dream. And why trade for a PF that is only going to play at most 2 more years and is one his way down? Especially when almost all the Magic's talent is very young, except Hill.

Tmac is like 23, Miller is 23 I think, Hunter is no more than 22, Oyedeji is 21.. Sasser and Humphrey must be no more than 23. Garrity is still young.

Plus, Horace (who's contract is the one that would make the trae work) would not allow himself to be traded. He is only going to play this year as a favor to DeVos. He would retire before being traded anywhere.

And Buechler has already been waived. And Ewing looks as if he is going to retire.

Magic are not down on Mike Miller, it is jsut that he has the most value on the team besides Hill and Tmac. They dont want to trade Miller since he is Tmac's (the franchise) best friend.

I'd rather have Keon Clark and Oyedji starting next year than Malone and Garrity.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,019 Posts
I agree they need to do something. Right now Jazz have done nothing this offseason and I can't understand what they are doing. I wonder what the plan is. They have said Marshall is the priority and they are letting Russell leave to get younger. They are reported to be close to signing Calbert Cheaney. Is that an upgrade over Russell? Cheaney is no younger and a similiar player with similiar career stats. In fact Russell averages slightly more rebounds, assists and has a higher 3Pt%. Cheaney has a small advantage in overall FG%(46 vs 43). I guess he may be a cheaper backup at SF and starter/backup at SG.

1) I am not sure about Grant but I think he signed his current contract with the idea he would retire in Orlando and that he had no interest in other teams even for more money. I doubt he cares if he holds up a trade. Malone is a hard guy to figure out. He *****es and moans every summer about something. One summer several years ago he said he would never play in Utah again. This summer it has been about a contract extension. I might be able to find some links if you want. Malone and the owner have done a lot of verbal sparring in the media this summer. I am not sure if this is his usual crap or he is serious. I am taking him at his word and assuming an extension is important. If the trade were to a team with a good chance at a title it might be easier to convince him. Do you think Orlando can win it all this year with Malone? They would have a better chance to get to the finals but would still lose to the Lakers. Losing in the finals a third times would be worse for Malone than not getting back. How many #1-#2 option are 0-3 in the finals? 0-2 is bad enough. I think a trade has to be to Dallas, Lakers, NJ, Sacramento or SA to give him a chance at the title. All are unlikely. He is from Louisiana. Would N.O. have any better chance than Orlando with Malone? I don't think so.

2) I am not an expert. I got the No trade clause stuff from RealGM.com. Click on the team info and they have a trade restrictions option. This gives all the trade restrictions like No trade clauses, contract signing and recently traded plus dates. It is interesting you picked 3 of 4 guys listed with no trade clauses. The other is David Robinson. I have a question on salary and extension. If he Malone signs an extension does it have to be for a raise? Could he sign a 2-3 year extension for say the 4.7M exception?

3) Marshall has gotten a nasty dose of reality. The free agent market sucks this year for a player. Signing a one year contract is likely to backfire for him. There are too many marquee players available next year. Will there be anything left for a guy like Marshall? He might end up settling for sharing some of the 4.7 exception next year. If you were Marshall would you signing a 2yr/13-15M and risk trying the market in Summer of 2004? This would give him a year as #1 option if Malone leaves. If he only gets 3yr/17M he will really regret turning down the initial Jazz offer of 3yr/21M.

Here are some of todays links from a SLC paper
Marshall - http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,405019943,00.html
Cheaney -
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,405019893,00.html
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
450 Posts
i would definately trade for younger guys, mainly for desmond mason, he is awesome.
 
1 - 8 of 8 Posts
Top