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Discussion Starter #1
If Nash isn't even in the top 3 candidates for MVP (I'm going off of what a lot... not all posters have said... Sir Patchwork even went so far as to say he wasn't even a top 5 candidate) , Quentin Richardson sucks (people rag on him all the time), and Mike D'Antoni isn't coach of the year... then well how the heck is it that the Suns are so dang good (and yes having the best record in the league does qualify as being 'dang good')? How is it that they're so much better than last year?

Let's see how people spin this one.
 

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Nash is a top 2 MVP candidate. All David Stern needs to do is rename assists 'touchdowns' and Nash would be considered the Payton Manning of the NBA. He isn't the type of player who needs to dominate the ball to get high assists/game (hi Marbury). Just efficient passing. I love Nash's game.

I'd vote for Shaq in the end because he's still the best player in the game, but it would be a pretty close call for me.
 

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Well lets see.

Amare Stoudemire is 22 years old. Usually when guys are this young with so much upside, and the will to fill it out, they'll improve greatly from year to year until they reach their prime. Amare Stoudemire is putting up 26 points per game on 56% from the field, those look like MVP numbers, as opposed to the 20 points on 48% he was putting up last season. He has improved a whole lot.

Mike D'Antoni has had a full year to get them buying into his system, and it's obviously paying off. You'll see many cases where coaches take a job 3/4 of the way into the season and do a terrible job, then come back next year and do a wonderful job because they have time to put their stamp on the team. This guy is a coach of the year candidate, no way around it.

On top of adding one top 10 MVP candidate (Nash), and one player developing into a top 10 MVP candidate (Amare), they have an all star in Shawn Marion, and a couple of other good players that fit their system perfect. They have a coach who knows what he is doing, they have an identity, and they stick to it because it wins game.

MVP Candidates:
1. Shaquille O'Neal
2. Tim Duncan
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Tracy McGrady
5. Nash perhaps, but he isn't even close to the top 4. He is arguably 5th, and a distant 5th to boot.
 

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Nash should be at least one of the top three candidate for the mvp. he totallly turned the suns around leading them to the division title already. he is the leader of the team and is the point guard that gets everything started. However I believe shaq and duncan will get serious consideration too. i think the award is a fight between those three players. The bottomline is that all mvps should have a winning team. you cant be a valuable player when your team isnt not winning...example AI.....
 

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"The MVP, how I judge it is, if you take a guy off that team, how would they fare?" Ray Allen said. "(Nash) proves to the rest of the world that they're not as good without him on floor."
Pretty much what he said. An argument could be made for Shaq and Duncan tho.
 

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There are a lot of players whos team would play worse without them on the floor, but not all of them are the MVP of the league. Nash really cashed in on the games they lost without him, but that's a pretty silly way to look at it for a few reasons.

First of all, it's such a small sample size. 2nd of all, they lost the game before he went down, and the game when he came back, which only means they may have last a few of those games anyways because of their schedule. Lastly, they were in the middle of a 4 game road trip, and they were up against good teams like the Grizzlies, Pistons and Wizards.

Of course, they gave the MVP to Iverson only a couple years ago, so it wouldn't surprise me if Nash got it, but there are atleast a few guys who deserve it a whole lot more.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Sir Patchwork said:
There are a lot of players whos team would play worse without them on the floor, but not all of them are the MVP of the league. Nash really cashed in on the games they lost without him, but that's a pretty silly way to look at it for a few reasons.

First of all, it's such a small sample size. 2nd of all, they lost the game before he went down, and the game when he came back, which only means they may have last a few of those games anyways because of their schedule. Lastly, they were in the middle of a 4 game road trip, and they were up against good teams like the Grizzlies, Pistons and Wizards.

Of course, they gave the MVP to Iverson only a couple years ago, so it wouldn't surprise me if Nash got it, but there are atleast a few guys who deserve it a whole lot more.
You're really under-valuing how well Nash is playing this year. He's averaging 11.5 Assists per game. If you don't realize just how much that is look no further than to the fact that no player has averaged 11.5 or more assists per game since 1995 (10 years ago) and no one other than Stockton has averaged that much since 1991 (14 years ago).

At the same time a player has scored 26 PPG or more 45 times since 1991. Yet neither of your MVP candidates (Shaq and Duncan) even average 23 PPG. You could infer then that their point output is hardly anything special. It's good but MVP good? Not really. Special is something like Nash is doing because as I've proved only 1 player has averaged as many assists as he is in 14 years.

Another flaw with one of your candidates (Shaq) is he almost cannot be on the court at the end of the game. Yes he's always been a bad free throw shooter but it almost seems now that he's just given up trying to get better. He's putting up one of the worst free throw seasons in league history hitting only 46.6% of his attempts. Nash is the 3rd best free throw shooter in league history. He seals the deal at the end of games like an MVP should.

Not that I agree with this but because Duncan went down a couple weeks before the end of the season sports writers might start forgetting how good his season has been. He won't be fresh in people's minds at all (MVP voting can be a lot like the Oscars). To boot only playing 62 out of 82 games in a season is going to greatly detract from candidacy. While injuries are sometimes just the luck of the draw... being injured for a significant amount of time can really take away from your "total value to the team". In the extreme situation let’s say we have a player averaging 30PPG and 10RPG for the season yet he only plays in one game. Obviously he's not all that valuable to his team’s success. While missing only 20 games isn't nearly that significant the same can be drawn that missing 25% of your team’s games doesn't make you as valuable as say someone who’s missed only 5% of the games.

Every major stat for Duncan is down from last year. You'll argue that he's playing less minutes and that's true. But get this Duncan is averaging 34 Minutes per game and Nash is averaging 34.5 per game. Yet Nash is STILL getting 11.5 Assists per game.

Nash is leading one of the best offenses of all time. Yes one of the best in league history and here's why. Now obviously you could go back about 10 years and you'll find a team averaging more PPG than the Suns do today (Only two teams have averaged more PPG than the Suns do now since 1993). If you think that's a reason why this current Suns team isn't one of the greatest offensive teams in league history you're missing a major point. No one even comes close to the Suns scoring margin today. They average 8 PPG more than the second highest scoring team in the league. Now I don't have the time or energy to check this but that differential is probably the largest in league history.

Last year the Suns scored 94.2 PPG, this year they score 110.7 PPG. That's a difference of 16.5PPG. That's just in ONE season. Think about it this way... in 82 games the Suns will score 1,353 more points than they did last year. Obviously they give up more PPG game, 5.8 more a game to be exact. However you'd have to be someone without a brain to think they play worse D this year than last year. Now let's look at the difference 16.5-5.8= 10.7 Point differential better than last year. Obviously Stoudemire has improved and they added the most prolific 3 point shooter ever (Q) but a 10.7 increase is beyond good. It's unheard of. Most of this is because of Nash.

Now you can argue that 11.5 APG is just a statistic and really doesn't show how much impact a player really has on his team. This is true, some stats can be misleading. Like Brevin Knight for example, one of the major reasons he has so many assists per game is because he always passes it (not a knock on Brevin though... he's a fine player). The guy can't shoot worth squat so he dishes it at any given opportunity. However not is the same with Nash. Nash is shooting better than Duncan from the field despite the fact he never dunks the ball. 42% of Duncan's shots are either Dunks, lay-ups, or tip ins. 0% of Nash's shots are dunks, 0% tip ins, and only 22% are lay-ups. Nash's eFG% from a jump shot is 55% while Duncan's is 41%. And despite all this in the end Nash is shooting a higher clip while having to take 20% more shots from far out. To add Duncan takes over half his shots from a direct assist, Nash gets about 16% of his shots from an assist. And it's not because Nash doesn't take any shots... heck he averages over 16PPG, only 6 less than Duncan.

In the end you can throw out everything I've said and tell me "show me the results". If someone is added to the team and the team doesn't improve, no matter what stat he is putting up it can be said his influence isn't all that important. However this is obviously Nash's biggest reason for candidacy. Not only are the Suns on pace to break their franchise record for wins in a season (36 year history) they are doing it coming off of a 29 win season. They are projected to win 63 games (if they continue at the same pace they're on right now) which would be a 34 win increase, one of the highest increases in league history. That's what I call showing you the results.
 

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Great post tempe, let's see how this one unfolds.
 

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Since Duncan has gone down, Nash is the MVP. He may be MVP even when Duncan was healthy. San Antonio has been very good without Tim. With Shaq, the Heat still have Wade and he carries that team just as much as Oneal. Without Nash the Suns basically lose. They're an entirely different team. The Heat can still make the playoffs without Shaq. The Spurs can win without Duncan. Without Nash the Suns would be where they were last year, he is the league MVP.
 

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There is really no spin needed. He is not considered a top 3 canidate because there are at least three players more deserving.

People seem to forget that the core of this team (three of the 4 best players) won 44 games and challenged the soon to be World Champion Spurs for 6 games in the playoffs. They were also playing near .500 ball last season , Cabarkapa and Amare went down and they played 14 out of 19 on the road and went 5-14 and their season was over. By the time Amare was healthy, they had traded Marbury and decided to scrap the team. Then Amare got hurt again.

So to say that Steve Nash is having this overwhelming effect is purely a fantasy created by people to lazy to research the facts. My guess is that if Amare had never been injured last season, that team wins near 50 games with Marbury and this season with the maturation of Amare and Joe Johnson they would be approaching 55 wins. This counts the fact that without trading Marbury there would be no Q in Phoenix.

Thx
 

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MemphisX said:
There is really no spin needed. He is not considered a top 3 canidate because there are at least three players more deserving.

People seem to forget that the core of this team (three of the 4 best players) won 44 games and challenged the soon to be World Champion Spurs for 6 games in the playoffs. They were also playing near .500 ball last season , Cabarkapa and Amare went down and they played 14 out of 19 on the road and went 5-14 and their season was over. By the time Amare was healthy, they had traded Marbury and decided to scrap the team. Then Amare got hurt again.

So to say that Steve Nash is having this overwhelming effect is purely a fantasy created by people to lazy to research the facts. My guess is that if Amare had never been injured last season, that team wins near 50 games with Marbury and this season with the maturation of Amare and Joe Johnson they would be approaching 55 wins. This counts the fact that without trading Marbury there would be no Q in Phoenix.

Thx

How is that any different from what Shaq has done in Miami. He has his Amare, in D. Wade. The Heat placed higher in the ranking last year than Phoenix, and they won in the first round.
 

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Sir Patchwork said:
Amare Stoudemire is 22 years old. Usually when guys are this young with so much upside, and the will to fill it out, they'll improve greatly from year to year until they reach their prime. Amare Stoudemire is putting up 26 points per game on 56% from the field, those look like MVP numbers, as opposed to the 20 points on 48% he was putting up last season. He has improved a whole lot.
Who gets Amare the ball so that he can shoot 56%???????? Geezus, how about you put some analysis into the statistics you provide? So you think Amare suddenly can shoot 8% better because he's a year older?? Crap, in what, five years, if he's improving that much, he'll be shooting 90% from the floor!! lol Oh and did you notice that the Suns still score 120 points without Amare?? Hmmm...how can that be??

Or hey, wait a minute, could it be that the Suns got a new point guard who is the best passer in the game, who leads the break like nobody's business, and because of Nash, the Suns are the highest scoring team in the league?

Nope. Nope. That's just coincidence :rolleyes:

Watch a Suns game sometime.
 

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My take is:

Shaq
Duncan
Nash

Are the top three MVP candidates. Garnett and Iverson both have better numbers (in my opinion) and would be leading the way if their teams were performing better. But they aren't, so they won't win the award either.

Dirk and McGrady are next on the totem pole, but will likely not receive the award (but definately should receive some votes).

Nash would be my choice if I had a vote, but I think it will likely go to Shaq this season. He moved to a new team after a big trade and made them a championship contender while we all know where the Lakers are. The media likes following this story, and I'm sure will swing a lot of votes Shaq's way. Plus, Shaq hasn't won it in a few years and for the most dominant player in the game, this year would be a good season to give it to him.

Nash is having a spectacular season, but this is the first season he is truely having spectacular numbers. For that reason alone, I think it will take another couple of years with similar production for Nash to get the award. Remember, the award has to be "earned." Jordan should have ended up with 9 or 10 MVPs, but they did not want to keep giving it to him year after year, so only gave it to him during his spectacular seasons. Point being, there is a lot of politics involved.

As for coach of the year (and you can read my analysis in that thread), the top three candidates are Skiles, Jordan, and McMillan. I think it's a tossup between Skiles and Jordan in terms of who deserves Coach of the Year, with McMillan being in third (albeit a close third). I think D'Antoni is definately fourth on the list.

Phoenix should win GM of the year.
 

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not top 3???

Shaq
Nash
Duncan

who else should be considered?? Dirk??, KG, AI please all three are putting up good numbers but they're teams are playing way below expectations you can't reward for that
 

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MemphisX said:
People seem to forget that the core of this team (three of the 4 best players) won 44 games and challenged the soon to be World Champion Spurs for 6 games in the playoffs. They were also playing near .500 ball last season , Cabarkapa and Amare went down and they played 14 out of 19 on the road and went 5-14 and their season was over. By the time Amare was healthy, they had traded Marbury and decided to scrap the team. Then Amare got hurt again.
That core won 44 with Marbury as the PG. Last time I checked, Marbury
played as good as a PG could that year.

Nash is the most important part of the Suns triangle. Heck, even Marion
might be more important than Amare. He at least plays some defense.
 

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sboydell said:
not top 3???

Shaq
Nash
Duncan

who else should be considered?? Dirk??, KG, AI please all three are putting up good numbers but they're teams are playing way below expectations you can't reward for that
If you were referring to my post, please reread.

I said the exact opposite of what you got out of reading it.
 

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Rhyder said:
If you were referring to my post, please reread.

I said the exact opposite of what you got out of reading it.
no sorry I was just saying in general too anyone who says Nash isn't a top 3 candidate
 
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