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I see your point, although I’m not sure it’s the exact same scenario. People should definitely correct me if I have any of this wrong (I hesitate to go too far down this rabbit hole since I’m not a legal expert). But my understanding of 2015 is that there was a formal rape charge filed, police investigation, etc. That to me is much closer in parallel to the formal Title IX option that has been discussed here. Based on what I’ve read about the current case, a formal complaint would have resulted in an automatic suspension. However, in this case, no formal complaint was filed. Again, this leaves the apparent mishandling of that whole situation by the department as a separate issue.

But as it relates to Becker, he would have been suspending someone without there even having been a formal complaint. I suppose he could have fallen back on the Code of Conduct, but at that point, you’d have the basketball coach coming off the top rope and basically overriding the Title IX process and his own employer’s process. With the benefit of hindsight, that might have been the best thing for everyone, but I think it would be pretty tough to expect a coach to unilaterally make that decision while the situation was still unfolding.

I guess my point ultimately is that when we start going down the “why didn’t Becker do something?” path, it implicitly speaks to his moral compass. Based on the fact pattern so far, coupled with his past actions, I just think we should be careful about that. If we find out differently later, I’ll be the first one to change my tune.
 

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Discussion Starter #82
I see your point, although I’m not sure it’s the exact same scenario. People should definitely correct me if I have any of this wrong (I hesitate to go too far down this rabbit hole since I’m not a legal expert). But my understanding of 2015 is that there was a formal rape charge filed, police investigation, etc. That to me is much closer in parallel to the formal Title IX option that has been discussed here. Based on what I’ve read about the current case, a formal complaint would have resulted in an automatic suspension. However, in this case, no formal complaint was filed. Again, this leaves the apparent mishandling of that whole situation by the department as a separate issue.

But as it relates to Becker, he would have been suspending someone without there even having been a formal complaint. I suppose he could have fallen back on the Code of Conduct, but at that point, you’d have the basketball coach coming off the top rope and basically overriding the Title IX process and his own employer’s process. With the benefit of hindsight, that might have been the best thing for everyone, but I think it would be pretty tough to expect a coach to unilaterally make that decision while the situation was still unfolding.

I guess my point ultimately is that when we start going down the “why didn’t Becker do something?” path, it implicitly speaks to his moral compass. Based on the fact pattern so far, coupled with his past actions, I just think we should be careful about that. If we find out differently later, I’ll be the first one to change my tune.
I think a lot of it speaks to what Ware and now the other women athletes are saying...if the athletic department was willing to overstep its bounds to get into a Title IX investigation to resolve it "informally" why then could they not use their own student-athlete code of conduct, itself "formal" only by the athletic department, but one that is used to discipline student-athletes for "informal" issues on campus?

The student-athlete code of conduct can suspend an athlete for missing class or practice, going out drinking be it underage or in defiance of coach's orders, and literally a bunch of other things that a normal student would not face consequences for, like team rules set by a head coach of one sport that don't blanket apply to other student-athletes, and wouldn't at all to any regular student.

A regular student misses class? Okay, their grade suffers in the class possibly. If they're doing poorly overall and get a GPA of under 2.0 (which is hard to do at UVM), they get placed on academic probaition, and can still attend, but have to meet with advisors and stuff, but get every chance to do better and the only difference is "we're watching you." A student-athlete? The NCAA says anyone under that is ineligible for competition the following semester. NCAA says 8 game suspension for textbook selling as UVM fans know...an on scholarship regular student who sells their textbooks when they're supposed to return them to the bookstore? "Hey don't do that" and "pay us back the costs out of your pocket." These are examples of NCAA rules specifically, but it is from the same cloth when it comes to NCAA rules and athletic department conduct codes.

A regular student gets caught drinking/drunk underage on campus? They have to meet with their resident director and attend a panel and write some essay about why what they did was bad and then maybe a letter goes home to their parents, but sometimes it doesn't. A lot of the times, the UVM PD officer just throws your citation out because they don't want to do the paperwork for insignificant cases. If you're off campus and underage, it's a $150 fine from Burlington PD, and a letter from the school saying "respect the community." If you're of age, generally nobody gives a crap (for the majority white, cisgendered student population, that is). For UVM student-athletes? Any scenario I laid out results in game suspension from the department. There was one hockey player during my time there who likely had a real alcohol problem, and occasionally he'd get scratched on the Saturday end of the home weekends because he'd go out to the bars when it's a team rule you don't on the Friday night, generally. He probably was never even formally "caught" for anything either by authorities, but he was suspended for games nonetheless.

All that being said, I think it's totally logical in response to Ware's story that other women student-athletes are making the demands they are for their own safety first, because the department sent the signal that we're just going to play the accused and he'll face no consequences, but secondly, since the athletic department can levy punishment against a student-athlete for things the university would say are "resolved" in the form of additional consequences, why can't they do it for cases of sexual violence?

The athletic department was all too willing to overstep and push for an informal solution, but then won't even apply their own departmental standards to it? Every right to question why they can cherry pick what they litigate and what they don't. The admins should be let go for the obvious mishandling/overstepping and putting the basketball program over another student-athletes wellbeing, but also because they are downright stupid and couldn't see how to logically apply their own informal policy to an informal solution and not be in the situation they are in. It would not in any way shape or form impacted the men's basketball team in a long term sense, especially since the timeline was in the non-conference part of the schedule. The only person who would have been mad about it is the same guy who is currently the department's only defender on here, and the same guy who whined all year about how UVM, a one-bid team in a one-bid league, blew its seeding chances every time it lost a game this season.
 

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I don't think it reflects any better on Schulman that it was just his associate who made the comment about "the fans" and not him directly because either way, his own female athletes want him gone specifically as well. When you have nine teams (over half of UVM's student athletes, I'd assume) banding together and saying stuff like "We don't feel safe with you in charge" it sounds very much like they're making an ultimatum.
 

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They could not be blatantly dodging this more if they tried.
 

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I want to be very clear here. I do not in any way condone what appears to have happened here. I do believe that the Administration did a huge disservice to Ms. Ware and to the university and athletic department as a whole. With that being said, there is an ongoing lawsuit, correct? I don't believe that any parties involved in a lawsuit ever comment about it until it's resolved. I expect that when the NCAA rules, and the case is resolved, there will absolutely be consequences. The wheels of justice roll very slowly, but they do roll.
 

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This came across my computer today...from Feb. 11th

Interesting take
Very disturbing read...if what is alleged is true, to win basketball games UVM athletic dept sold it's collective soul. Listen, I love to get into it with UVM fans here, and we sometimes fight like cats and dogs on here but this is on another level disturbing. Part of me hopes this isn't true but UVM's lack of transparency and urgency around doing the right thing unfortunately paints a grim picture and that's sad.

The last paragraph couldn't be more true. Even today they celebrate him with all of this sitting on the back-burner. An adult needs to step in and take the twitter account access away from the idiot that keeps embarrassing UVM on that platform.
 

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No surprise and glad to see someone report the name of the player as it was the worst kept secret in the world. UVM and it's fans sold their soul and it's disgusting. UVM fans have always been arrogant but this takes it to a whole new level. The gushing over this man is absolutely disgusting. I'm sure the UVM faithful still have his picture up in their rooms and have a special moment when they had a chance to meet him and how special it was. Give me a break.
 

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No surprise and glad to see someone report the name of the player as it was the worst kept secret in the world. UVM and it's fans sold their soul and it's disgusting. UVM fans have always been arrogant but this takes it to a whole new level. The gushing over this man is absolutely disgusting. I'm sure the UVM faithful still have his picture up in their rooms and have a special moment when they had a chance to meet him and how special it was. Give me a break.
The fans is one thing...but for UVM and the official Twitter account of UVM Basketball to still be celebrating the individual is an absolute f'ng disgrace. Tone deaf is an understatement of the century.
 

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The fans is one thing...but for UVM and the official Twitter account of UVM Basketball to still be celebrating the individual is an absolute f'ng disgrace. Tone deaf is an understatement of the century.
Well said! I agree it's a disgrace and UVM, the basketball staff (yes including you John Becker) and the fans all make me sick.
 

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Well said! I agree it's a disgrace and UVM, the basketball staff (yes including you John Becker) and the fans all make me sick.
You keep trying to throw blame to the fans. You're really missing it. There are maybe one or two UVM fans, an overwhelming minority, on this forum who are not sickened by the athletic department's actions. Perhaps most are not passing judgement on the player's actions until there is more information available about what happened.

As far as fans pimping the male athlete...I'm not really seeing it. A thread about his stats during his G League stint??? It's garnered a casual interest at best.

Please rage on and hate the athletic department, coaches, and staff all you like. Most of us agree with you. Your anger at the fan base is misplaced.
 

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Well said! I agree it's a disgrace and UVM, the basketball staff (yes including you John Becker) and the fans are make me sick.
Luke, let the anger, jealousy of UVM's successful basketball program & schadenfreude flow through you directly into your keyboard.
 

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You keep trying to throw blame to the fans. You're really missing it. There are maybe one or two UVM fans, an overwhelming minority, on this forum who are not sickened by the athletic department's actions. Perhaps most are not passing judgement on the player's actions until there is more information available about what happened.

It is a poorly kept secret that the two people involved had an ongoing relationship. It is also a poorly kept secret that alcohol was involved. Given those circumstances, I think many people are being extra careful about attaching blame or responsibility.

As far as fans pimping the male athlete...I'm not really seeing it. A thread about his stats during his G League stint??? It's garnered a casual interest at best.

Please rage on and hate the athletic department, coaches, and staff all you like. Most of us agree with you. Your anger at the fan base is misplaced.
This entire saga is, at bare minimum, incredibly complex and very sad all around. It's pretty difficult to comment on given only what's been reported, and I have many thoughts on this situation but going to wait to see how the lawsuit/investigation unfolds and the findings/outcome.

That being said, I've been impressed, or curious?, disturbed?, by how many facts and details so many on this board seem to be privy to, to be able to rush to judgement and come to a conclusion so easily.
 

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This entire saga is, at bare minimum, incredibly complex and very sad all around. It's pretty difficult to comment on given only what's been reported, and I have many thoughts on this situation but going to wait to see how the lawsuit/investigation unfolds and the findings/outcome.

That being said, I've been impressed, or curious?, disturbed?, by how many facts and details so many on this board seem to be privy to, to be able to rush to judgement and come to a conclusion so easily.
I hear you, but it seems pretty clear that at a minimum, the athletic department tried to encourage the female athlete to pursue a route that would allow the men's bb player to remain on the floor. It also seems pretty clear that the athletic department did not value the female athlete, nearly as much as the male athlete. With everything else that has been said or not said, this seems pretty clear.

I expect more from the "adults in the room". They did not do well.
 
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