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Rollin Wit Da Homies
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Kirk Hinrich since the beginning of January:
17.3 ppg, 6.3 apg, 1.2 steals, 43.5% from the field in 37.5 mpg.

Ben Gordon since the beginning of January:
18.5 ppg, 3 assists, almost 1 steal, 43.4% from the arc in 33.4 mpg.

Luol Deng since the beginning of January:
13.3 ppg, 7 reb, 2 assists, .86 steals in 34 mpg.


That's not a terrible big three, you know. Chandler's averaging 9.2 rpg and 1.3 bpg during that span as well. He's not going to be a star center, I don't think, but he's going to be a banger up front, a mad rebounder, and an even better defender for years to come. I see him being a young Dale Davis, if not even better as a rebounder. A tough, gritty defender that does all the dirty work.

Deng is turning 21 next month, Gordon 24, and Hinrich just turned 25. This is some seriously young talent with still a long ways to go in terms of hitting their primes in this league (Hinrich might be near, but I think he'd discover a different dimension with a different cast around him).

Not to be pessimistic, but what if we come out of the offseason with LaMarcus Aldridge, Ronnie Brewer, and either Drew Gooden or Melvin Ely. Let's say LaMarcus Aldridge doesn't really keep up that well in the NBA and doesn't end up that great. It seems like a nice, complete lineup with a lot more size and needs filled, but let's say a "consolidation" trade were not to happen.

Do we know how much better this team will get by simply sitting back and letting them grow as players? Do we have a star or even a few stars already among us?


I know I've started these types of threads before, and it was not that long ago that this board was riled up and crazy excited about the monster season endings Curry and Chandler had a few years back, only to be sorely disappointed in the following seasons. But Gordon and Deng improved on solid rookie years; Hinrich continues to get incrementally better. What gives us any reason to believe that these guys are not the next "stars" of this team, after a season of a bad taste in their mouths from missing the playoffs, hardcore conditioning, and added skill sets, especially for a talent like Deng with so much upside still?

I can't help but be nearly absolutely positive that trading any of these guys would result in that player instantly catapulting near that All-Star level.
 

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Rollin Wit Da Homies
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Re: If we just added role players this offseason, would a star emerge from who we've

TripleDouble said:
Are you sure you got Deng's number right? Those are basically his season averages.
Yeah, huh. But those are his January-March averages also. In January he had a below-average month, with 11.3 and 5.9 and 1.9 apg. But in March, he's been good for whopping 16.2 and 10 rpg. It averages out to around his season average.

I didn't want to be accused of number-fudging too much, so I did all three players from January, during which span we've gone a fairly unimpressive 15-20 (before January, we were 12-18 and playing terrible defense, so there's been marginal improvements when our players step up their games).
 

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Gordon, Duhon, Hinrich, Deng and Nocioni have all improved this season over last. Moreover, they are playing better together as teamates with fewer turnovers. It's reasonable to expect that the improvement will continue next year as well.

However, none of those players seems likely to emerge as an all-star candidate next year. 
 

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Luol will be the star.Right now he in my opinion is a rising star already.He's been going crazy out on the court.Go on NBA.com and check out his game by game stats! Look at his March numbers for rebounds and points.He's going to be a better and more atheletic version of Elton Brand,from a double double standpoint.I'm not going by postion,he is young a very gifted.If he was in school still he would be the number on pick this year!Oh he might be averaging 20+PTS and about 15rebs a game.I know those are not Morrison or Gay's numbers but they been in school longer and are probley both younger then him.He'd be a sophmore this year!!!Luol is the diamond in the rough.And for the other part of your question I say sign a good free agent anyways so we can have an ever stronger team.Darius was a nice addition but we got the same results.Go for Harrington Pax!!!!
 

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Go for Harrington Pax!!!!
I'm still quite hesistant to go after Harrington as lately I can see us seeing double with him and Deng.
If Deng adds some bulk to his frame, he would basically bring everything Harrington does, with a better post game to boot. So i'm quite reluctant to go after Harrington and give him the required length and money and be stuck with him in the long run.
 

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It's a great core, but I don't see anyone of our guys developing into a top-15-type NBA player, ever. Maybe, possibly, hopefully Deng, but he's a longshot.

I think Paxson and Skiles more or less agree with that assessment. The good part is that I think they've put such a strong core in place, we might be highly successful with a star who's not necessarily a megastar "franchise" player. It's why I was lobbying so hard for Paul Pierce.
 

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I think Deng will eventually be great. Hinrich, Gordon & Chandler can all be very good, but probably not top 15 player material. Nocioni is also good and improving, not sure how much better he'll get. Chandler is the least likely to reach his potential out of the 5. In my mind, we're 1 good PF/C away from being a playoff team, and if we can get one this summer w/ the potential to improve, then we have the potential to become Piston like championship contenders down the road w/o any tweaking to our core. An additional good big and a good tall SG off the bench would also help us, but that's a given. I expect next year to be a much more entertaining season than this year. About the only way Pax could totally screw it up in my mind is to trade away our young core for an older vet, ala Krause's Rose deal.
 

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Rollin Wit Da Homies
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Re: If we just added role players this offseason, would a star emerge from who we've

Fizer Fanatic said:
I think Deng will eventually be great. Hinrich, Gordon & Chandler can all be very good, but probably not top 15 player material. Nocioni is also good and improving, not sure how much better he'll get. Chandler is the least likely to reach his potential out of the 5. In my mind, we're 1 good PF/C away from being a playoff team, and if we can get one this summer w/ the potential to improve, then we have the potential to become Piston like championship contenders down the road w/o any tweaking to our core. An additional good big and a good tall SG off the bench would also help us, but that's a given. I expect next year to be a much more entertaining season than this year. About the only way Pax could totally screw it up in my mind is to trade away our young core for an older vet, ala Krause's Rose deal.
I agree with everything here, except that I think Hinrich is already a top 15 player at his position.

In order, the point guards of the NBA:

Nash (the best PG since Stockton)
Kidd (on the decline)
Wade (basically a combo, not unlike Hinrich)
Billups (in his ultimate prime now)
Arenas (freak of nature, almost a disservice to call him Wade-lite)
Iverson (now a PG)
Bibby (people always forget how clutch he can be, if his team ever gets there again)
Baron Davis (if he'd ever stay healthy for two seasons, he'd be top 3)
Chris Paul (killer)
Sam Cassell (really makes his team BETTER, everywhere he goes)
A. Miller (does more for the Nuggets than you think)
Marbury (here only because of talent; he brings only negativity in anything else)
Kirk Hinrich
Tony Parker (overrated)
T.J. Ford (underrated)

I guess Ridnour, Brevin Knight can be on that list. LeBron doesn't count, and I refuse to count Joe Johnson as well, as either of those guys most GM's would not take to be a point guard.

Hinrich, in my opinion, is definitely an impact guy as much as Andre Miller is. More GM's in need of a floor general would choose Kirk over Parker, I think. Hinrich's not done, either; I can see him moving up past Andre Miller to the Sam Cassell level of point guard.

Anyway, I digress. Hinrich is a top 15 PG, and I actually do think that Gordon will be a top 15 SG. Look at the list:

Kobe
LeBron
Wade
Pierce
T-Mac (I think he might push Kobe for #1 if HE could stay healthy)
Ray Allen
J-Rich (this guy is sick, and still really young)
Rip Hamilton
Vince Carter
Michael Redd
Joe Johnson

and then... we get into the Cat Mobley, Jamal Crawford, Ricky Davis, et al. I think Gordon's already there and will be at the Michael Redd level pretty soon. Gordon (and Hinrich, for that matter) are both top-10 among guards in the Eastern Conference, and top-20 among all Eastern players. Gordon can easily be in that elite group of top-15 guards in the league in a year or two.

But I agree that Deng, definitely, will be the most likely to go places. Mostly because he's been performing like a nut recently AND because he's got a ridiculous amount of upside. We're going to see this guy put on 15-20 pounds of MUSCLE in the next three years, if he avoids injury. I liken him to a Jamal Mashburn in his prime, except with like two extra inches on him. That's an All-Star small forward if I've ever imagined one.
 

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I should probably clarify that I meant top-15 in the league OVERALL, not top-15 at a particular position.
 

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Rollin Wit Da Homies
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Re: If we just added role players this offseason, would a star emerge from who we've

ScottMay said:
I should probably clarify that I meant top-15 in the league OVERALL, not top-15 at a particular position.
Oh right, my bad. I just read the Bill Simmons article, so I've got top-15 at his position in my head.

Um, that's probably what everyone else meant too, huh. My bad. :embarrass
 

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Re: If we just added role players this offseason, would a star emerge from who we've

I see Deng as being moreso a less explosive Marion, but with more half court offensive skill, hopefully because of a strong post game.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Re: If we just added role players this offseason, would a star emerge from who we've

Babble-On said:
I see Deng as being moreso a less explosive Marion, but with more half court offensive skill, hopefully because of a strong post game.
This is accurate (and I don't mean to pick on you), but a lot of people on this board are looking at Deng as a Marion-type. Marion, like Ben Wallace, gets almost all of his game from being ridiculously active and athletic. They say some players are geniuses in talent, like in 3-point shooting, passing vision, the ability to man-defend. But Matrix and Big Ben are geniuses of insane work, energy and athleticism. Is that what Deng has been looking like lately?

If you take away Ben's freakish athleticism, you're left with Malik Rose. If you take away Matrix's insane athleticism, I think you're left with Corliss Williamson or Jason Maxiell. If Deng is less explosive and but a much better half-court player, he basically no longer resembles Marion except that they are both good rebounders from the SF spot. AND, Marion plays most of his minutes at PF now, so...
 

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Re: If we just added role players this offseason, would a star emerge from who we've

Showtyme said:
This is accurate (and I don't mean to pick on you), but a lot of people on this board are looking at Deng as a Marion-type. Marion, like Ben Wallace, gets almost all of his game from being ridiculously active and athletic. They say some players are geniuses in talent, like in 3-point shooting, passing vision, the ability to man-defend. But Matrix and Big Ben are geniuses of insane work, energy and athleticism. Is that what Deng has been looking like lately?

If you take away Ben's freakish athleticism, you're left with Malik Rose. If you take away Matrix's insane athleticism, I think you're left with Corliss Williamson or Jason Maxiell. If Deng is less explosive and but a much better half-court player, he basically no longer resembles Marion except that they are both good rebounders from the SF spot. AND, Marion plays most of his minutes at PF now, so...
I agree agree with you to an extent, but I still see the comparison, because for one, like you said, they both are good rebounders from the sf, but also because it seems like Deng gets most of what he does offensively not by having plays run for him, but in the flow of the offense by being active and all over the place.
 

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Re: If we just added role players this offseason, would a star emerge from who we've

No. We won't get a player who would be near the top five in any position.

I think we got a bunch of guys who would be great sidekicks, but not a true superstar themselves.

Tyson - role player. To be considered elite, he has to reach a Ben Wallace/Mutombo like level, become a Def. Player of the Year candidate.

Luol - Potential great sidekick. Has put up great stats the past few weeks.

Ben - Great help for scoring, but he still has to improve upon the rest of his game

Kirk - great PG, but has yet to reach elite status. Could be a great PG, but I don't see him reaching a Nash/Kidd level. Maybe he does 5 yrs down the road. Nash wasn't all that immediately in the league. Has to up his FG%.

Duhon - Role player.

Noce - Solid player, but a role player.
 

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Re: If we just added role players this offseason, would a star emerge from who we've

Showtyme said:
Oh right, my bad. I just read the Bill Simmons article, so I've got top-15 at his position in my head.

Um, that's probably what everyone else meant too, huh. My bad. :embarrass
Yeah, that's what I meant (top 15 overall). I might be a bit over-optimistic on Deng. At only 21, though, with his quickness, length and finally coming around after an injury, I see the sky as the limit for him moving forward. He seems like he could have the motivation to realize his potential.

Also, Hinrich could be a top 15 overall guy at some point in his career when you consider that Nash was MVP last season and Hornacek had his time as a NBA all-star. He also seems like he could have the motivation to realize his potential.

Chandler could be Ben Wallace like if he really applies himself, uses his head more, and stays healthy & motivated (seems fairly questionable). His rebounding numbers are amazing when he's motivated and on the court (avoiding foul trouble).

I don't see Gordon becoming top 15, as all he really seems to do well is shoot & score.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Re: If we just added role players this offseason, would a star emerge from who we've

Fizer Fanatic said:
Yeah, that's what I meant (top 15 overall). I might be a bit over-optimistic on Deng. At only 21, though, with his quickness, length and finally coming around after an injury, I see the sky as the limit for him moving forward. He seems like he could have the motivation to realize his potential.

Also, Hinrich could be a top 15 overall guy at some point in his career when you consider that Nash was MVP last season and Hornacek had his time as a NBA all-star. He also seems like he could have the motivation to realize his potential.

Chandler could be Ben Wallace like if he really applies himself, uses his head more, and stays healthy & motivated (seems fairly questionable). His rebounding numbers are amazing when he's motivated and on the court (avoiding foul trouble).

I don't see Gordon becoming top 15, as all he really seems to do well is shoot & score.
There's a place for shoot-and-score types, and I don't know that "top 15" is really the indicator of what a team needs to win. Michael Redd probably doesn't fall within the top 15 players in the NBA, but he's definitely in that top tier of players that any team would want.

And I think Gordon can be a Redd. He may not have the marginal numbers in rebounding but he's a far better passer and he looks to pass when he can't get going. And since Redd's third year, he hasn't had a .400+ season from the arc. They both have the ability to get the ball off their hands and into the hoop. Gordon, arguably, is a better penetrator.

I think BG just needs one 20+ ppg season for people to start considering him a star. He may not be an All-Star, but he'll be a go-to guy and a high scoring guard in the NBA, possibly with us.

I'd go so far as to say that Ben Gordon may be a better shooting guard than Al Harrington will ever be a small forward. In other words, if Al Harrington joined our team this offseason, it's possible that Gordon has more "star potential".

I agree that Deng has the most, but we'll see what ends up happening.
 

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Re: If we just added role players this offseason, would a star emerge from who we've

Showtyme said:
I agree with everything here, except that I think Hinrich is already a top 15 player at his position.

In order, the point guards of the NBA:

Nash (the best PG since Stockton)
Kidd (on the decline)
Wade (basically a combo, not unlike Hinrich)
Billups (in his ultimate prime now)
Arenas (freak of nature, almost a disservice to call him Wade-lite)
Iverson (now a PG)
Bibby (people always forget how clutch he can be, if his team ever gets there again)
Baron Davis (if he'd ever stay healthy for two seasons, he'd be top 3)
Chris Paul (killer)
Sam Cassell (really makes his team BETTER, everywhere he goes)
A. Miller (does more for the Nuggets than you think)
Marbury (here only because of talent; he brings only negativity in anything else)
Kirk Hinrich
Tony Parker (overrated)
T.J. Ford (underrated)

I guess Ridnour, Brevin Knight can be on that list. LeBron doesn't count, and I refuse to count Joe Johnson as well, as either of those guys most GM's would not take to be a point guard.

Hinrich, in my opinion, is definitely an impact guy as much as Andre Miller is. More GM's in need of a floor general would choose Kirk over Parker, I think. Hinrich's not done, either; I can see him moving up past Andre Miller to the Sam Cassell level of point guard.

Anyway, I digress. Hinrich is a top 15 PG, and I actually do think that Gordon will be a top 15 SG. Look at the list:

Kobe
LeBron
Wade
Pierce
T-Mac (I think he might push Kobe for #1 if HE could stay healthy)
Ray Allen
J-Rich (this guy is sick, and still really young)
Rip Hamilton
Vince Carter
Michael Redd
Joe Johnson

and then... we get into the Cat Mobley, Jamal Crawford, Ricky Davis, et al. I think Gordon's already there and will be at the Michael Redd level pretty soon. Gordon (and Hinrich, for that matter) are both top-10 among guards in the Eastern Conference, and top-20 among all Eastern players. Gordon can easily be in that elite group of top-15 guards in the league in a year or two.

But I agree that Deng, definitely, will be the most likely to go places. Mostly because he's been performing like a nut recently AND because he's got a ridiculous amount of upside. We're going to see this guy put on 15-20 pounds of MUSCLE in the next three years, if he avoids injury. I liken him to a Jamal Mashburn in his prime, except with like two extra inches on him. That's an All-Star small forward if I've ever imagined one.
Saying Kirk is better than Tony Parker is taking that fan stuff a little too far. You can't be serious. Parker is better than anyone we have on the roster.
 

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Re: If we just added role players this offseason, would a star emerge from who we've

Luol Deng and Ben Gordon are the only two current players on our team with real star potential. I think Nocioni and Hinrich have the potential to be those super role player types, like Chauncey Billups/Tayshaun Prince caliber. I also think Tyson Chandler has the potential to become an average NBA player, up from the pile of crap he is right now. Not to mention we'll be adding 2 draft picks, and maybe greg oden next summer too.
 

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these comparisons is what i see in this group of young bulls so far

hinrich=mix bewtween billups and price (he has billups size and defense could develop price shot)
gordon=andrew toney or a smaller ray allen
deng=prince
chandler=camby (both are great rebounders and defenders who are real skinny and athletic, only thing that really seperates them is camby ability to score some)
noconi=harpring
duhon=ollie ( i admit this comparison might not be 100% but thats the best i can think of so far)
 
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