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Jesus Shuttlesworth
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Whatever. Theyre sitting at 15 wins and that's exactly what that horrible roster is going to net you. George Karl may help this team over-achieve tho
 

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Limehouse Blues
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This is about effort and development and that roster is not quite horrible. They have enough talent to develop into a decent team. You make one or two good moves and you have something. You have to get them to play the game the right way even if you're losing though, and you have to develop the guys.

Look at how many minutes Willie Green has been getting and it's obvious that Vaughn just didn't understand what he was supposed to be doing.
 

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With the amount of talent that Orlando have they really should be doing better than 15-37. Hopefully the new coach can shoot some life into Channing Frye. I know that Frye isn't worth 9 mil a year but he definitely isn't playing up to his capabilities. In the right system I think a stretch big like him can still be very effective in opening up the court for their perimeter guys like Oladipo and Harris.
 

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Oladipo for the people
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This is about effort and development and that roster is not quite horrible. They have enough talent to develop into a decent team. You make one or two good moves and you have something. You have to get them to play the game the right way even if you're losing though, and you have to develop the guys.

Look at how many minutes Willie Green has been getting and it's obvious that Vaughn just didn't understand what he was supposed to be doing.
Yea... maybe you should have been coaching them instead.
 

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I honestly saw Willie Green's recent uptick in minutes as a last act of defiance by Vaughn when he realized his days were numbered. There's no reason on earth a 15-37 team should be cutting the minutes of Elfrid Payton (the reigning Eastern Conference Rookie of the Month) in favor of Willie freakin' Green. Vaughn was told to push the tempo and play the young guys, he said **** you I'm going to play Willie Green and he got canned.

The roster he was given with isn't great, but it's better than 15-37. From the beginning of Vaughn's tenure, everyone knew the Magic would struggle in the first couple years. He had to show improvement by now and he hasn't. He has one of the best centers in the league, an extremely talented backcourt and decent pieces elsewhere. There's just nothing you can point to with Vaughn as a reason he should keep his job.
 

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I honestly saw Willie Green's recent uptick in minutes as a last act of defiance by Vaughn when he realized his days were numbered. There's no reason on earth a 15-37 team should be cutting the minutes of Elfrid Payton (the reigning Eastern Conference Rookie of the Month) in favor of Willie freakin' Green. Vaughn was told to push the tempo and play the young guys, he said **** you I'm going to play Willie Green and he got canned.

The roster he was given with isn't great, but it's better than 15-37. From the beginning of Vaughn's tenure, everyone knew the Magic would struggle in the first couple years. He had to show improvement by now and he hasn't. He has one of the best centers in the league, an extremely talented backcourt and decent pieces elsewhere. There's just nothing you can point to with Vaughn as a reason he should keep his job.
Are you still going to defend the Frye and Gordon signings?
 

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Are you still going to defend the Frye and Gordon signings?

Here's what I said 7 months ago:

You're not looking at opportunity cost. JNice made the same argument when you overpaid Shard. "Well we're going to be over the cap anyways, so the extra money theoretically doesn't hurt."

It did. Yes it's true years 1-3 the Magic weren't any worse off than if Shard made 30% less money, but as it loomed and they decided they needed change all they could get for his crippling contract was Arenas, who they later amnestied.

Everyone should agree the Magic could of improved their club even more with the 4 year, 32 million dollars than Frye. Maybe not necessarily this summer, but eventually. Gordon's isn't really crippling since it's only 2 years and below average.

I think everyone agrees that Mike Conley is a great point guard. You can literally put him on any team in the league, and he can play at least 20 minutes a game and complement whatever setup they have. From a pure basketball standpoint, every time would improve by trading their worst player for Mike Conley.

Now does that mean you're better off as a franchise with him making 30 million a year. No?

If ownership would trade a stunt of the long term growth for an 8th seed this season then I guess you can argue that they're inept, not Hennigan.
Think you're misinterpreting my point. I don't disagree with anything you just said. I don't think this is a good move for the franchise, I even said it was short-sighted in my last post. I'm just saying I get it. Since the day Hennigan got here we've been told that he's rebuilding the team and we'd see improvements starting in 2014-15.

The Magic are going to trot out a team with three top 10 picks from the last two drafts as well as Tobias Harris and Nik Vucevic. If they can't compete for the 8th seed in the East, something is wrong. Vaughn is almost certainly going to lose his job and Hennigan is going to feel the heat for blowing those draft picks if they don't pan out. Channing Frye helps the Magic on the basketball court and that's not even debatable. It doesn't excuse making a short-sighted move, but it does explain it.

Orlando was looking at having the worst shooting team in the league by far. Now you figure they plug Frye into the starting lineup (160+ 3PT three times), slide Aaron Gordon to the bench as a combo forward and bring him along slowly. You add Ben Gordon and Evan Fournier to the bench and you have a pretty solid, balanced 8 or 9 man rotation.

Completely different situation than the Lewis contract by the way. The argument people made time after time was that the Magic could've improved their roster further and possibly won a title if they hadn't overpaid Lewis. The counter to that was that from a cap standpoint, paying Lewis $120 million or $80 million made no difference.

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What I said:
"I don't think this is a good move for the franchise"
"Short-sighted"
"If they can't compete for the 8th seed in the East, something is wrong. Vaughn is almost certainly going to lose his job"

So yes, they're not competing for the 8th seed, something is wrong and Vaughn has now lost his job like I said he would. If that's "defending" the moves, yes I still defend them.
 

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The only problem I have with Frye is his contract. As a player I think he's an useful piece when he is put into the right system but I don't think paying him 8 mil a year for 4 years is remotely close to what he's actually worth. That said it's not nearly in the realm of the Shard contract in terms of team crippling. I still hold to this day that the Magic fans were dead wrong back then when they defended the Shard contract, however I do understand how they can at least rationalize the Frye contract.

The Ben Gordon contract was a dumb move but at least it's only for 1 year since it's a team option for next year. As for their current combination of young talent it's a big question whether Aaron Gordon can fit in with Vucevic and Tobias Harris. Aaron Gordon's skillset is kind of like a less developed/more athletic version of Harris. Both are 3/4 tweeners that can't play their position in the traditional sense.
 

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The only problem I have with Frye is his contract. As a player I think he's an useful piece when he is put into the right system but I don't think paying him 8 mil a year for 4 years is remotely close to what he's actually worth. That said it's not nearly in the realm of the Shard contract in terms of team crippling. I still hold to this day that the Magic fans were dead wrong back then when they defended the Shard contract, however I do understand how they can at least rationalize the Frye contract.

The Ben Gordon contract was a dumb move but at least it's only for 1 year since it's a team option for next year. As for their current combination of young talent it's a big question whether Aaron Gordon can fit in with Vucevic and Tobias Harris. Aaron Gordon's skillset is kind of like a less developed/more athletic version of Harris. Both are 3/4 tweeners that can't play their position in the traditional sense.

I'm fairly confident Tobias Harris is not in the Magic's future plans.
 

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I'm fairly confident Tobias Harris is not in the Magic's future plans.
I think it'll really depend on the new coach and how he sees the current roster. As far as I can tell Aaron Gordon has a lot of development to do just to be as good as Harris is right now. At just 22 years old I don't see why Orlando would write him off already.
 

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I think it'll really depend on the new coach and how he sees the current roster. As far as I can tell Aaron Gordon has a lot of development to do just to be as good as Harris is right now. At just 22 years old I don't see why Orlando would write him off already.
You can take it to the bank if Scott Skiles is part of the Magic's future that Tobias Harris won't be.

Aaron Gordon will never be the scorer Tobias Harris is right now, I don't think I'm making a terribly bold claim in saying that. That's the problem with Harris though, that's all he does and he doesn't do it well enough to warrant the type of contract he's seeking or to make up for his deficiencies elsewhere. Gordon was a reach at #4 , but it's easy to see why so many compared him to Shawn Marion coming out of college. Great athleticism and defensive versatility. Offensively he's incredibly raw. He'll get better, but even at his peak I don't see a first or even second option. I see a great effort guy who excels on defense, guards multiple positions and maybe scores 15 points a night, mostly around the rim or on spot up corner threes. Nothing wrong with that, just not a go to guy offensively or a superstar.
 

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Here's what I said 7 months ago:





What I said:
"I don't think this is a good move for the franchise"
"Short-sighted"
"If they can't compete for the 8th seed in the East, something is wrong. Vaughn is almost certainly going to lose his job"

So yes, they're not competing for the 8th seed, something is wrong and Vaughn has now lost his job like I said he would. If that's "defending" the moves, yes I still defend them.
Fair enough response.
 

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Oladipo for the people
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You can take it to the bank if Scott Skiles is part of the Magic's future that Tobias Harris won't be.

Aaron Gordon will never be the scorer Tobias Harris is right now, I don't think I'm making a terribly bold claim in saying that. That's the problem with Harris though, that's all he does and he doesn't do it well enough to warrant the type of contract he's seeking or to make up for his deficiencies elsewhere. Gordon was a reach at #4 , but it's easy to see why so many compared him to Shawn Marion coming out of college. Great athleticism and defensive versatility. Offensively he's incredibly raw. He'll get better, but even at his peak I don't see a first or even second option. I see a great effort guy who excels on defense, guards multiple positions and maybe scores 15 points a night, mostly around the rim or on spot up corner threes. Nothing wrong with that, just not a go to guy offensively or a superstar.
Harris is fools gold at this point. The Knicks are going to offer him a ridiculous sum of money this summer. They'd be better off just trading the guy at the deadline.
 

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Or you could just google search Toby Harris to the Knicks.

Because.... google exists and all.
Because Harris never said that and you're full of shit once again.

Go ahead, find one. The closest thing you'll find is one of his "close friends" told some reporter that Harris told him that he would love to win a championship with the Knicks. Don't tell me that is your source?
 
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