[robyg1974]

Take a look at Tinsley's first year stats, then take a look at Jackson's first year stats. Keep in mind that each player was handed the starting PG job right away.

Tinsley

30.5 minutes/game
38.0 FG%
24.0 3Pt%
70.4 FT%
9.4 points/game
8.1 assists/game
3.4 turnovers/game
3.7 rebounds/game
1.73 steals/game

Jackson

39.6 minutes/game
43.2 FG%
25.4 3Pt%
77.4 FT%
13.6 points/game
10.6 assists/game
3.1 turnovers/game
4.9 rebounds/game
2.5 steals/game

As it turns out, Jackson was a MUCH better shooter (FG%, 3Pt% AND FT%) and had a MUCH better assist-to-turnover ratio. Everything else (points/game, assists/game, rebounds/game, steals/game) is about the same when you consider that Jackson played 9 more minutes/game than did Tinsley.

And did Mark Jackson ever IMPROVE on those numbers? Did he end up becoming a perennial First-Team All-NBA-type player? Did he "only improve," as so many of you seem to think young players always do? [Sample quote: "... and he's young, so he's only going to get better."] NOPE! Total number of seasons Jackson averaged more assists/game than his rookie season: TWO. Total number of seasons Jackson averaged more points/game than his rookie season: TWO. Total number of seasons Jackson averaged more rebounds/game than his rookie season: ONE. Total number of seasons Jackson averaged more steals/game than his rookie season: ZERO. And Mark Jackson had a nice NBA career! He was an above average starting NBA point guard--but he was NEVER a STAR. NEVER. Lots of assists--but NEVER a STAR. Seriously, could Mark Jackson hold Kevin Johnson's jock? NOPE! Could he hold John Stockton's jock? NOPE! How about Magic Johnson? Gary Payton? Isiah Thomas? Jason Kidd? Tim Hardaway? ANFERNEE Hardaway (before the injuries)? Stephon Marbury?

Jamaal Tinsley probably won't ever be a STAR, either. I think that it's safe to say that Mark Jackson had a CAREER YEAR during his ROOKIE SEASON. And I have this weird feeling that Jamaal Tinsley ALSO had a CAREER YEAR during his ROOKIE SEASON. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. This guy just doesn't have a lot of upside, people! AND he wasn't even one of the TEN BEST starting PGs in the league LAST season, all of these dudes were for SURE better than Tinsley:

Gary Payton
Jason Kidd
Mike Bibby
Andre Miller
Baron Davis
Steve Francis
Stephon Marbury
Steve Nash
John Stockton

I think that Tony Parker and Sam Cassell were better, too, but I suppose that's debatable. And I think it's pretty obvious that Jay Williams will be a better player from the get-go than Tinsley was last season. So how is Tinsley ever going to be any better than an ABOVE AVERAGE starting point guard? He's never going to be a STAR, he'll never be one of the TEN BEST PGs in the league! How can you be a STAR if you aren't one of the TEN BEST players in the league at your position? Here are the ages of the guys who were better than him last season, just so you can see that these guys aren't exactly on the verge of retirement (with the exception of Stockton, of course):

Gary Payton--34 (still has 3-4 All-Star-caliber seasons left in him)
Jason Kidd--29
Mike Bibby--24
Andre Miller--26
Baron Davis--23
Steve Francis--25
Stephon Marbury--25
Steve Nash--28
John Stockton--40

[NOTE: Tinsley isn't a little kid, he's 24--younger than Davis!]

Payton is an ageless wonder, there's no end in sight for that guy. [NOTE: I remember when Stockton was 34, people were speculating that it was all downhill for the guy--yet here he is, still playing at an All-Star level, six years later!] Those top eight PGs will remain the same--maybe Jay Williams bumps one or more of them down a notch within the next couple of years, maybe not. In any event, those top eight PGs on the list AND Jay Williams, well, that's NINE point guards there, people! So, three years from now, Jamaal Tinsley will be NO BETTER than the tenth-best starting PG in the league--and I don't think he's better than Tony Parker (Parker is a much better perimeter shooter and he's much quicker), so I don't think he'll ever crack the top ten! PLUS, within the next three years, you'll see at least a couple of rookies come in and quickly move past Tinsley.

Sorry, people--Jamaal Tinsley is ABOVE AVERAGE, like his predecessor, Mark Jackson. Jamaal Tinsley = The Next Mark Jackson. There's nothing wrong with being an above average starting NBA point guard!

The point here is that you CANNOT ASSUME that a guy is necessarily going to just keep on getting better and better and better simply because he is a first- or second-year NBA player. AND, when you factor in that Tinsley actually played four years of college ball, that he came in way more polished than the typical NBA rookie--WELL, I don't know, people, YOU TELL ME!

In other words, if the Pacers can package Tinsley with somebody like Jonathan Bender for ANDRE MILLER, you do it! GO GET ANDRE MILLER!

 

[reggiemiller43]

tinsley will improve. He will have an all star year next year (note this doesnt mean he will make the all star team beacause the voting etc is screwed up and its basically a popularity contest). Did anybody else see that pic of tinsley with his shirt off in the indy star the other day. Dude went from a 38 to a 34 waist. He has trimmed up from last season. I was shocked when i saw the pic!

 

[T-ro]

Before I say anything else, I want to make this clear. We cannot put a tag on anyone. We can say that q.woods may look and have a similar style to T.Mcgrady, or Pau Gasol and Kukoc. However, this is just do to similarites, THEY ARE NOT THE SAME PLAYER, THEY WILL NOT HAVE THE SAME NBA EXPERIENCE. This holds true to the Tinsley-Jackson debate. They have similar skills/ build/ talents. However that does not mean they are the same player. He could be better worse or equal to Jackson, however whatever he becomes will be due to his work ethic, not how Jacksonesque he seems or appears to be. In other words, just due to similar stats in ONE year, players careers do not become exact by any means.

 

[R-Star]

Tinsley will be the man next year. The only reason he didnt get rookie of the year is because he wasent in the shape you need to be to play 82 games. Now that hes had time in the summer to get where he needs to be, people better watch out. Hes going to tear it up this year.

 

[Sir I Gotta Go]

Why do you say that Tinsley won't improve? Because Mark Jackson didnt.:laugh: What the hell does that have to do with Tinsley? And on top of that most of those guys you said Jackson couldn't hold their jock (with the exception of Stockton and Magic) don't have as many assists as Jackson has. Mark Jackson is the most underrated PG of all time. He has the 4th most assists of any player that has ever played. And he was a floor general and a very intelligent player. If Tinsley is as good as him I will be so happy.

the bottom line is, just because Mark Jackson didn't improve by no means means that Tinsley will not develop and get better. But if he does be as good as Jacson that will be great because IMO Mark is a Hall of Famer.

 

[Sir I Gotta Go]

Hey hilljack, you only said "dude" once in your post.:laugh:

 

[reggiemiller43]

I Can use it more if you would like

 

[pacersguy]

robyg1974, how come your always finding something bad for every team. Anyway, I hope Tinsley is the next Mark Jackson.

 

[Sir I Gotta Go]

Originally posted by reggiemiller43

I Can use it more if you would like

I meant Roby G.

Dude, I know it was a joke... but it's tasteless and unacceptable. None of that, okay?

 

[reggiemiller43]

my bad

 

[Pacers Fan]

Bump.

Every game I see more and more of Mark Jackson in Tinsley, especially with him running the old Jackson posting up, passing to Smits for the jumper play. I think Tinsley is still hovering around the top10 PG's in the league with his recent play.

 

[RP McMurphy]

It almost makes me want to cry when I read this guy's old posts. Look how brilliant he was, and he was run off the site by a couple of idiot moderators. I wish they'd ban the people who ran him off and ask him to come back.

Jamaal Tinsley is about as good as Mark Jackson was, around the tenth or twelfth best point guard in the league. He'll never be an All-Star, but he's young, he's signed to an affordable contract for a long time, and I'm glad he's a Pacer.

 

[PacersguyUSA]

I always enjoyed robyg's long posts. He was pretty wrong on this subject, but he made great debates in their time, when you can't look back retrospectively.

 

[PacersguyUSA]

Originally posted by <b>pacersguy</b>!
robyg1974, how come your always finding something bad for every team. Anyway, I hope Tinsley is the next Mark Jackson.

Sweet! After looking so long for my long lost account, I have found it. Too bad I don't know the password for it, and I signed up for it with an aol account, of which I no longer have. It's still nice to finally put that case to rest though.

 

[RP McMurphy]

Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
I always enjoyed robyg's long posts. He was pretty wrong on this subject, but he made great debates in their time, when you can't look back retrospectively.

Please explain how he was wrong.

 

[The_Franchise]

The guy really put his blood and sweat into his posts. He cared alot about getting his messages across, and you could tell.

I have a PM from him, when I was new to the board, about 5 paragraphs long talking about evaluating foreign players. Amazing.

 

[PacersguyUSA]

Originally posted by <b>RP McMurphy</b>!


Please explain how he was wrong.

Tinsley has improved, quite a bit.

Rookie:

30.5 minutes/game
38.0 FG%
24.0 3Pt%
70.4 FT%
9.4 points/game
8.1 assists/game
3.4 turnovers/game
3.7 rebounds/game
1.73 steals/game

This season:

34.8 minutes/game
41.0 FG%
37.7 3Pt%
73.3 FT%
16.3 point/game
7.2 assists/game
3.4 turnovers/game
4.2 rebounds/game
2.29 steals/game

He's better in all scoring/shooting categories, more rebounds & more steals (in more minutes though), he's leaner and faster, and from a qualitative perspective, he has better court vision. He's taken what he was exceptional at in his rookie season, i.e., creating plays, and has added a good offensive and defensive game to it.

So, he had two main points to his post. One being that Tinsley will not improve on his rookie season a lá Mark Jackson and, two, Tinsley will always be an above average point guard but not a star. I'll give robyg point 2, but not point one. Right now, he's batting .500. Then, he adds minor details that falsify (sp?) the post further, e.g."

And I have this weird feeling that Jamaal Tinsley ALSO had a CAREER YEAR during his ROOKIE SEASON.

In one statistical category maybe, but that hardly defines a career, considering the offensive improvment Tinsley has displayed.

Payton is an ageless wonder, there's no end in sight for that guy.

.......

Those top eight PGs will remain the same

Gary Payton? No. Andre Miller? No. Kidd and Davis? Skillwise, yes, but injury prone; I guess that'd be a push.

Jay Williams.......

.........

so I don't think he'll ever crack the top ten!

Has a couple seasons ago, and did earlier this year.

In other words, if the Pacers can package Tinsley with somebody like Jonathan Bender for ANDRE MILLER, you do it! GO GET ANDRE MILLER!

He was right on some points, but half of his prediction was not fulfilled.