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What should Jerry Krause do with Jamal Crawford and Marcus Fizer this summer?

  • Trade Fizer!

    Votes: 7 21.9%
  • Trade Crawford!

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Trade them both!

    Votes: 12 37.5%
  • Don't trade either one of them!

    Votes: 13 40.6%
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Here are Jamal Crawford's stats over the final 12 ballgames last year:

23.8 minutes/game
51.8 FG%
11.7 points/game
1.6 threes/game
55.9% 3Pt%
1.8 rebounds/game
2.5 assists/game
1.9 turnovers/game
1.30 assist-to-turnover ratio
0.92 steals/game
0.17 blocks/game

Here are his stats over the final 6 ballgames last year:

25.5 minutes/game
56.9 FG%
12.2 points/game
2.0 threes/game
66.7 3Pt%
1.7 rebounds/game
2.7 assists/game
2.3 turnovers/game
1.14 assist-to-turnover ratio
1.17 steals/game
0.17 blocks/game

NOW! That assist-to-turnover ratio is UNACCEPTABLE for an NBA point guard, sorry, fellas! That's not going to work!

BUT! Get a load of that three-point shooting ability! JESUS! That's incredible! This guy might be the best three-point shooter in the damn NBA, people!

SO! Why does everybody think this guy is a point guard? ISN'T he a SHOOTING guard?

Lately, I've been dissing Crawford, so I decided to look at his stats and see what kind of player he really is. Seems to ME that the thing to do is to start Crawford at SG, Jalen Rose at SF, Tyson Chandler at PF, and let Donyell Marshall be this team's sixth man, where he will get PLENTY of minutes. I HAD BEEN saying that the Bulls should trade Crawford and Marcus Fizer to the Wiz for Etan Thomas and a re-signed Popeye Jones, but I have NOW seen the error of my ways. I STILL say that you need to trade Fizer for someone who can play some backup PF and C. Popeye and either Chris Whitney or Hubert Davis for Fizer, Fred Hoiberg, and Michael Ruffin? That would probably work for both teams, wouldn't it?

Let's say that the Bulls make this deal, that they get, say, Chris Whitney (who, along with Hubert Davis and others, the Wiz would like to dump so as to give Larry Hughes and Juan Dixon more minutes next season and to clear payroll for a run at one or more of next summer's top free agents), here's what they'd be looking at:

Starting lineup

PG Jay Williams (32 minutes/game)
SG Jamal Crawford (24 minutes/game)
SF Jalen Rose (36 minutes/game)
PF Tyson Chandler (28 minutes/game)
C Eddy Curry (28 minutes/game)

Key backups: Donyell Marshall (28 minutes/game), Popeye Jones (20 minutes/game), Trenton Hassell (16 minutes/game), Chris Whitney (12 minutes/game), Eddie Robinson (12 minutes/game)

End of the bench (no PT): Dalibor Bagaric, Roger Mason, Lonny Baxter

The team could probably get away with playing Popeye at C behind Curry, I think--sure, he's not exactly a C, but he's a better option than Dalibor Bagaric! And Marcus Fizer CERTAINLY can't play C!

The thing is, if you play Jalen Rose at SF, I just don't see how Fizer is going to get many minutes, you know? Seems like Rose plays about 28 minutes/game at SF (the rest at G), Chandler plays 28 minutes/game at PF, Marshall plays the remaining 20 minutes/game at PF as well as 8 minutes/game at SF, Eddie Robinson plays the remaining 12 minutes/game at SF. Where is there room for Fizer in this rotation?

And, if you play Rose at primarily SG, I don't see how that leaves any room for Crawford in the rotation, whether you trade for Chris Whitney or NOT!

BEFORE, I was suggesting that the Bulls trade Crawford AND Fizer. I stand corrected. HOWEVER, it seems like the ONLY THING TO DO is to trade Fizer for a veteran backup PF/C like Popeye. MJ obviously isn't very interested in re-signing Popeye and keeping him for himself, Popeye is obviously VERY available. The Bulls could use that guy, he's a heck of a leader and a heck of a rebounder/role player. They sure don't need Fizer, that's for sure!
 

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MJ is interested in resigning Pop...I don't know where you got that little piece of info from. Pop was the most cnsistent big man on the Wiz roster.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Originally posted by <b>local_sportsfan</b>!
MJ is interested in resigning Pop...I don't know where you got that little piece of info from. Pop was the most cnsistent big man on the Wiz roster.
I gotta think that, if re-signing Popeye were a priority, MJ would've gotten it taken care of several weeks ago, don't you?

I gotta think that MJ is waiting for the right sign-and-trade opportunity to present itself.
 

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ROBY, I'm really pleased that you did a little research on Crawford. I want to point out a couple of things though. Crawford made a lotof passes that SHOULD have been assists last year, but Curry, Chandler, Bagaric and others often missed a lot of the passes that Jamal whipped in. In the RMR, Jamal was the 4th in that league in assists anddid very well with turnovers too. JWill was like 12th and was at the top of the list in turnovers. Jamal can play SOME SG, but he needs to continue to develop upper body strength to fight through screens effectively. He maybe ready for full time Sg duties next season...but not this season. By the same token, as much as I like JWill, he is NOT ready to come in and take over as the Pg for this team. He still has to learn the NBA ropes and the triangle offense. He will be best served initially doing this in a back up capacity. And you are right about JC's three point ability, he can flat out stroke the ball. Rose & JC are the Bulls best 3pt shooters IMO. In fact, at the pre-draft camp, during drills, Jamal nailed 10 3 pointers in a row from about 4 or 5 feet past the NBA three point arc, this was one of the final things that convinced Krause to draft him. I think Krause envisions a line up where the Pg & Sg can rain threes all day long and where we have at least one dominating post up player and a cutter. Rose NEEDS to move to Sg, he will have a much easier time defending Sg's IMO. So, we start like this:

Pg-Jamal/JWill
Sg-Rose/Hassell
Sf- Marshall or E-Rob
Pf-Chandler/Fizer/Blount/Baxter
C-Curry/Blount/Bagaric


Jamal & JWillwill pretty much split time.


Trading Fizer is a good idea if the Bulls can get value for him. I think they may be best letting him play a little (the guy is talented in his own way) this season and then dealing him mid-season. BTW, Ruffin is not on our team anymore. I don't think we have a serious need to trade for a 4 like Jones(whats up with dudes eyes?) Even if we trade Fizer, Chandler, Blount, Curry, Marshall, and Baxter are ALL capable of playing the 4. I think we need a Center more than anything. Bagaric is still somewhat of a project and it would be nice to have a legit center to play behind him. How about dealing Fizer for Brendan Haywood? I really like this kid. although, I suspect Washington would want more than Fizer.
 

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So, we start like this:

Pg-Jamal/JWill
Sg-Rose/Hassell
Sf- Marshall or E-Rob
Pf-Chandler/Fizer/Blount/Baxter
C-Curry/Blount/Bagaric



agreed, but at the end of game jamal and jwill, will both be on the court along with jalen, eddy, and whoever is playin the best between marshal, tyson, e-rob, and fizer
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Fizer and Hoiberg for Popeye and Etan Thomas?

How does THAT sound? These guys can take the remaining minutes at PF and C. You don't need Dalibor Bagaric touching the floor if you're serious about winning, in my opinion. Same deal with Corie Blount, that dude doesn't need to be touching the floor.

ACE20004U: Earlier, you wrote this:

"Crawford made a lotof passes that SHOULD have been assists last year, but Curry, Chandler, Bagaric and others often missed a lot of the passes that Jamal whipped in."

C'mon, man, stop making excuses for the guy. That's the oldest excuse for a high turnover rate EVER! This guy AIN'T a point guard!

And Jay Williams is super-polished, he'll step right in and play heavy minutes at PG for the Bulls, I don't know how anybody doesn't understand this! This guy is the heavy favorite to win Rookie of the Year for a REASON!

REGARDLESS, Fizer still has some trade value, since he WAS the #4 pick overall just a couple of years back. Time to get something for him, while you still can! He's yr classic tweener!
 

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Roby, I watched every game that Crawford played in last season. He definitley made numerous nice passes to the youngsters that they just weren't ready for. Call it an excuse if you like, I call it a fact.

I don't know what suppossedly makes JWill so super polished, he looked downright atrocious in the RMR, I think he ended up with more turnovers than assists! Jamal on the other hand looked much more composed to me. JWill did not look like the best player on the court in the RMR to me at all. If he is going to struggle with turnovers against sub-NBA talent, I shudder to think what will happen against real NBA all stars. JWill is a rookie, possibly rookie of the year, possibly not. Nevertheless he will struggle initially. He needs to adjust to the NBA and the triangle offense. Folks who think he will start over JC are just missing the point. This is not to hate on JWill, he's agreat prospect and Iam actually a fan, it will just take him some time to adjust to the NBA.
 

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Roby, I felt obliged to respond to your thread because I enjoy reading your interesting posts on other boards. It would be great to see you over here at the Bulls board more often.

Whether Crawford is a PG or not is not really that important for us. Last year after we got Rose, Rose or Best usually initiated the offense, so if you had to label somebody on offense a "point guard," those two guys were the "point guards."

The triangle does not employ a traditional point guard role, so it is usually easiest to label the guy guarding the other team's point guard the "point guard." Using that designation system, Crawford was indeed our "point guard."

So I wouldn't get all worked up about Crawford's low assist/TO ratio, since what it really reflects is simply the fact that on offense, he was primarily a spot-up shooter. But that's what the "point guard" often does in the triangle.

Personally, I would have liked to have seen him penetrate more often, creating more assist opportunities, but so far he has shown a relucutance to pressure the defense in that way.

In regards to the argument that he made lots of passes to Curry, Chandler, and Bags that were dropped, I think you are right in arguing that that argument does not hold water. Best had an excellent assist to turnover ratio, and he was playing with pretty much the same guys that Crawford was playing with.

I think you greatly overestimate how polished JWill will be (he almost surely will shoot a low percentage and have lots of turnovers), but I still do prefer him to Crawford. Crawford always seems a bit intimindated out there, like he lacks self-confidence. We have even heard rumblings about this from a couple of our inside sources.

JWill, on the other hand, seems like the kind of guy who will step up during the 4th quarter of important playoff games - not hide like we see lots of players do. I worry about Crawford hiding in those situations. And having to compete with JWill is not going to be good for a guy who might have self-confidence problems to begin with.
 

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It is too early to trade Fizer. His offensive game will improve as will his defense and rebounding. He is unfairly singled out and is still far away from achieving his potential. I think he will get there and that this season he will make giant strides.
 

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Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
ROBY, I'm really pleased that you did a little research on Crawford. I want to point out a couple of things though. Crawford made a lotof passes that SHOULD have been assists last year, but Curry, Chandler, Bagaric and others often missed a lot of the passes that Jamal whipped in. In the RMR, Jamal was the 4th in that league in assists anddid very well with turnovers too. JWill was like 12th and was at the top of the list in turnovers. Jamal can play SOME SG, but he needs to continue to develop upper body strength to fight through screens effectively. He maybe ready for full time Sg duties next season...but not this season. By the same token, as much as I like JWill, he is NOT ready to come in and take over as the Pg for this team. He still has to learn the NBA ropes and the triangle offense. He will be best served initially doing this in a back up capacity. And you are right about JC's three point ability, he can flat out stroke the ball. Rose & JC are the Bulls best 3pt shooters IMO. In fact, at the pre-draft camp, during drills, Jamal nailed 10 3 pointers in a row from about 4 or 5 feet past the NBA three point arc, this was one of the final things that convinced Krause to draft him. I think Krause envisions a line up where the Pg & Sg can rain threes all day long and where we have at least one dominating post up player and a cutter. Rose NEEDS to move to Sg, he will have a much easier time defending Sg's IMO. So, we start like this:

Pg-Jamal/JWill
Sg-Rose/Hassell
Sf- Marshall or E-Rob
Pf-Chandler/Fizer/Blount/Baxter
C-Curry/Blount/Bagaric


Jamal & JWillwill pretty much split time.


Trading Fizer is a good idea if the Bulls can get value for him. I think they may be best letting him play a little (the guy is talented in his own way) this season and then dealing him mid-season. BTW, Ruffin is not on our team anymore. I don't think we have a serious need to trade for a 4 like Jones(whats up with dudes eyes?) Even if we trade Fizer, Chandler, Blount, Curry, Marshall, and Baxter are ALL capable of playing the 4. I think we need a Center more than anything. Bagaric is still somewhat of a project and it would be nice to have a legit center to play behind him. How about dealing Fizer for Brendan Haywood? I really like this kid. although, I suspect Washington would want more than Fizer.
Ace, dropping some serious bball knowledge there. Excellent, excellent post dude. You're right on the money. I'll add just a couple more minor points. When JC returned from his rehabbed knee last year, the Bulls had no chance at making a run at the playoffs. It was obvious that he was looking to establish himself as the second legitimate scoring threat from the perimter (behind Rose). Therefore he shot the ball more often (relative to his assists) than I would have expected. People also need to keep in mind that he was still a little rusty. It takes a while for a PG to get used to his teammates and vis a versa. He was probably a little out of condition as well. To reiterate your point, many of JC's TOs last season were due misques between JC and guys like Bagaric, Chandler, and Curry.

I believe that JC's natural and most effective position is PG. Is he capable of filling in at SG on a case-by-case basis? Yes, but to me he's a pure PG. He just happens to be one who can shoot too.
 

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Originally posted by <b>NCBullsFan</b>!
Crawford always seems a bit intimindated out there, like he lacks self-confidence. We have even heard rumblings about this from a couple of our inside sources.

JWill, on the other hand, seems like the kind of guy who will step up during the 4th quarter of important playoff games - not hide like we see lots of players do. I worry about Crawford hiding in those situations. And having to compete with JWill is not going to be good for a guy who might have self-confidence problems to begin with.
I agree with most of what you've said, but I beg to differ with the passage above. You say Crawford seems intimidated. To me it's natural for someone who just came off of a season-ending injury to be a tad bit intimidated. In fact I was surprised that he wasn't even more intimidated. As a rookie, Floyd pulled him every time he blinked the wrong way practically. It's so hard for anyone to get into any sort of rhythm when you're being pulled from the game every five minutes to be lectured by the worst coach in NBA history. Crawford has quiet, controlled, and very confident demeanor when he's on the court. He's extremely smooth and doesn't appear to be intimated by anyone. I watched him shake guys like Baron Davis something wicked. People claim that JC is afraid to penetrate. I couldn't disagree more. He penetrates well, he just doesn't in a more finese sort of manner. He prefers a running floater to a reverse scoop lay up. One comparision would be comparing Magic (JC) to Isiah (JWill). Both great PGs in their time, but different types of penetrators. I'd rather have a guy like JC at point who's controlling the ball, taking high percentage shots, and getting everyone involved than someone who's likes to dribble down the court and pull up 30 ft jumpers or go one on one with defenders and alienate the rest of his team in the process (ala JWill in summer leagues). Hype or no hype, that's just my opinion.
 

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Originally posted by <b>MichaelOFAZ</b>!
I agree with most of what you've said, but I beg to differ with the passage above. You say Crawford seems intimidated. To me it's natural for someone who just came off of a season-ending injury to be a tad bit intimidated. In fact I was surprised that he wasn't even more intimidated.
Yes, I know that is the standard argument. Blame it on the injury. But he did not seem to have gotten a lot more aggressive in the RMR. Players like MJ, Baron Davis, and Bonzi Wells never seemed to have lost an iota of aggressiveness when returning from their injuries.

As a rookie, Floyd pulled him every time he blinked the wrong way practically. It's so hard for anyone to get into any sort of rhythm when you're being pulled from the game every five minutes to be lectured by the worst coach in NBA history.
Yes, Floyd may have done permanent damage to him. But what guarantee do we have that the damage is correctable? Also, Fizer and Artest lived under the same kind of coaching and never seemed to be any worse for the wear. If he can't take abuse from the "worst coach in NBA history" and not lose his confidence, what is he going to be like in the 4th quarter of game 7 in the Eastern Conference Finals? Dealing with Floyd is a cakewalk compared to that.

Crawford has quiet, controlled, and very confident demeanor when he's on the court. He's extremely smooth and doesn't appear to be intimated by anyone. I watched him shake guys like Baron Davis something wicked.
I was at the final game of the season and Charlotte and Crawford in that game shocked me. Yes, there was the one play where he shook Davis (and wrongly got called for carrying the ball), but for most of the game, it took everything he could muster to get the ball past half court without getting it taken away by Davis. I could see the sense of relief on his face when he was able to pass the ball off to Rose. In a lot of ways, it looked a lot like I must look when I go up against guys who have played college basketball. I am out of my league and I know it.


People claim that JC is afraid to penetrate. I couldn't disagree more. He penetrates well, he just doesn't in a more finese sort of manner. He prefers a running floater to a reverse scoop lay up. One comparision would be comparing Magic (JC) to Isiah (JWill). Both great PGs in their time, but different types of penetrators.
In his rookie year, last year, or in summer play, JC almost never goes to the line. If you look at his statistics, it is amazing how little he goes to the line. I don't care if he is shooting a floater or dunking the ball, but good penetrators get to the line and JC does not.

I'd rather have a guy like JC at point who's controlling the ball, taking high percentage shots, and getting everyone involved than someone who's likes to dribble down the court and pull up 30 ft jumpers or go one on one with defenders and alienate the rest of his team in the process (ala JWill in summer leagues). Hype or no hype, that's just my opinion.
JC does not "get everyone involved." He crosses half-court, hands the ball off to Rose, and sets up outside the 3-point line. That is his role and that is why he gets so few assists. In the last few games of last season, he was very good at that role and that is why he has some value in that league.

After Rose retires, we will need a perimeter player who is willing and able to initiate some offense. The reason I like JWill is that he has shown the ability and willingness to play that role, whereas Crawford has not. Whether it is due to his injury or Floyd traumatizing him, I don't know. It may not be Crawford's fault that he is the way he is, but we have to realize that it may never change.
 

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Originally posted by <b>NCBullsFan</b>!
Yes, Floyd may have done permanent damage to him. But what guarantee do we have that the damage is correctable? Also, Fizer and Artest lived under the same kind of coaching and never seemed to be any worse for the wear. If he can't take abuse from the "worst coach in NBA history" and not lose his confidence, what is he going to be like in the 4th quarter of game 7 in the Eastern Conference Finals? Dealing with Floyd is a cakewalk compared to that.

the difference between jc, artest, and fizer, is that jc was a pg, and floyd had a immovable opinion on what his pg should do, and jc didnt want to do that, he wanted to be aggressive, but floyd made him tone it down, and it wasnt until jc had toned it down, that he got some pt, and when u work at somethindg for a whole year, it can take a year or 2, to fix it. also, jc only played 17 games in college, while artes and fizer, had 2 and 3 years respectively, they were less raw than jamal. jamal is goin to be fine, we will have the best team in the league in 5 years (assuming shaq retires, and we keep eddy, jamal, and jwill). we will have the best back-court tandem, and the most dominant center in the game , we should not give away kids for some role players, those trades never work out, look at the blazers, dale davis for jermaine O'neal, and never trade based on one need, we need a big body, that doesnt mean we trade jc for jahidi white.
 

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Originally posted by <b>MichaelOFAZ</b>!


Ace, dropping some serious bball knowledge there. Excellent, excellent post dude. You're right on the money. I'll add just a couple more minor points. When JC returned from his rehabbed knee last year, the Bulls had no chance at making a run at the playoffs. It was obvious that he was looking to establish himself as the second legitimate scoring threat from the perimter (behind Rose). Therefore he shot the ball more often (relative to his assists) than I would have expected. People also need to keep in mind that he was still a little rusty. It takes a while for a PG to get used to his teammates and vis a versa. He was probably a little out of condition as well. To reiterate your point, many of JC's TOs last season were due misques between JC and guys like Bagaric, Chandler, and Curry.

I believe that JC's natural and most effective position is PG. Is he capable of filling in at SG on a case-by-case basis? Yes, but to me he's a pure PG. He just happens to be one who can shoot too.

Thanks for ther props Mike. I agree with the statements you amended here also. JC definitley likes that running floater and he converts it pretty well when he takes it. Still, it will be nice to see him finish strong in the future which I think he will begin doing soon. When he does he should get more trips to the line.

I also saw that game that NC was talking about where Baron got shook and where Jamal had trouble bringing the ball up. I will say in Jamal's defense that they REALLY went after him when he brought the ball up, Davis was all over him, probably ticked about the crossover JC laid on him. Also, he didn't get enough help bringing the ball up for someone as inexperienced as he is. When a pg is getting heavy pressure put on him in the backcourt then IMO he needs a running mate there to bail him out when it gets to thick.
 

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. I will say in Jamal's defense that they REALLY went after him when he brought the ball up, Davis was all over him, probably ticked about the crossover JC laid on him. Also, he didn't get enough help bringing the ball up for someone as inexperienced as he is. When a pg is getting heavy pressure put on him in the backcourt then IMO he needs a running mate there to bail him out when it gets to thick.
Unless he is getting doubled on his way up the floor all the time, that does not fly.

Notforany other PG inthe league....and not for JC.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
NCBULLSFAN: Thanks for straightening me out. I guess I forgot about the PG's role in the Triangle Offense. STILL, JC's assist-to-turnover ratio is unacceptable for a backcourt player, I don't care what kind of offense he plays in.
 
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