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Discussion Starter #1
Out of curiosity, I decided to check the stats of JC vs Othella, Pike and Griffin, since Jamal has played almost the exact same number of minutes this season as our 'Veteran Depth Brigade'. (Does not include Sat games)

Min- JC 1,864 ... VDB 1,921
FG- JC 312/793 ... VDB 245/535
FG%- JC 39.3 ... VDB 45.6
3PT- JC 125/348 ... VDB 42/102
3PT%- JC 35.9 ... VDB 41.8
FT- JC 128/149 ... VDB 148/204
FT%- JC 85.9 ... VDB 72.5
REB- JC 142 ... VDB 353
RPG- JC 2.8 ... VDB 5.5
AST- JC 212 ... VDB 110
APG- JC 4.2 ... VDB 1.7
STL- JC 66 ... VDB 60
SPG- JC 1.29 ... VDB 0.94
BLK- JC 13 ... VDB 17
TO- JC 106 ... VDB 107
TPG- JC 2.08 ... VDB 1.67
PTS- JC 877 ... VDB 686
PPG- JC 17.2 ... VDB 10.7

I'm not sure exactly what these numbers mean, but I can draw a few conclusions:

Pax obviously didn't just "give Jamal away" for expiring contracts, as the veterans he obtained have definitely made meaningful contributions at different times throughout the season.

The Bulls need Pike, Othella and Griff a hell of a lot more than they needed Jamal. Our bench has been the best in the league for most of the season, and that depth really showed up tonight with Eddy missing.

We got these valuable veterans (plus dumped JYD's contract) with only Jamal as trade bait- I can't wait to see what kind of offers the league's GMs will be throwing around for Eddy this summer.
 

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bullsville said:
Out of curiosity, I decided to check the stats of JC vs Othella, Pike and Griffin, since Jamal has played almost the exact same number of minutes this season as our 'Veteran Depth Brigade'. (Does not include Sat games)

Min- JC 1,864 ... VDB 1,921
FG- JC 312/793 ... VDB 245/535
FG%- JC 39.3 ... VDB 45.6
3PT- JC 125/348 ... VDB 42/102
3PT%- JC 35.9 ... VDB 41.8
FT- JC 128/149 ... VDB 148/204
FT%- JC 85.9 ... VDB 72.5
REB- JC 142 ... VDB 353
RPG- JC 2.8 ... VDB 5.5
AST- JC 212 ... VDB 110
APG- JC 4.2 ... VDB 1.7
STL- JC 66 ... VDB 60
SPG- JC 1.29 ... VDB 0.94
BLK- JC 13 ... VDB 17
TO- JC 106 ... VDB 107
TPG- JC 2.08 ... VDB 1.67
PTS- JC 877 ... VDB 686
PPG- JC 17.2 ... VDB 10.7

I'm not sure exactly what these numbers mean, but I can draw a few conclusions:

Pax obviously didn't just "give Jamal away" for expiring contracts, as the veterans he obtained have definitely made meaningful contributions at different times throughout the season.

The Bulls need Pike, Othella and Griff a hell of a lot more than they needed Jamal. Our bench has been the best in the league for most of the season, and that depth really showed up tonight with Eddy missing.

We got these valuable veterans (plus dumped JYD's contract) with only Jamal as trade bait- I can't wait to see what kind of offers the league's GMs will be throwing around for Eddy this summer.
you know its ok to be fair ,for one there was a guy named frank williams and his 71 minutes of fun was included in the deal ...as was jerome williams ...since like cezary trybanski, williams has been for the most part useless, the savings really haven't been as much as you claimed in your post because thats 2.7 mil of useless players right there .

also when adding jerome and frank williams , i'm sure the margin gets more lopsided . especially from a usefulness standpoint , the bulls are universally considered to need a big guard , which is what both pike and griffin are ...to me it says all that needs to be said about how useful they actually are.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
disgruntledKNICKfan said:
you know its ok to be fair ,for one there was a guy named frank williams and his 71 minutes of fun was included in the deal ...as was jerome williams ...since like cezary trybanski, williams has been for the most part useless, the savings really haven't been as much as you claimed in your post because thats 2.7 mil of useless players right there .
What "savings" are you referring to? I didn't mention any savings, but if you want to then Pax sent over $80 million in guaranteed salary to the Knicks and took back about $12 million.

But hey, Jamal and JYD have obviously helped the Knicks improve immensely over last season, right? :nonono:

also when adding jerome and frank williams , i'm sure the margin gets more lopsided . especially from a usefulness standpoint , the bulls are universally considered to need a big guard , which is what both pike and griffin are ...to me it says all that needs to be said about how useful they actually are.
It's universally known that the Bulls need a big guard who can defend, what exactly does that have to do with Jamal? We needed a 3-point threat, and Pike is shooting over 40%- he has filled his role very well. Griffin has provided veteran leadership (he was named co-captain by his teammates) and some timely big plays.

But hey, Jamal and JYD have obviously helped the Knicks improve immensely over last season, right? :nonono:
 

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So what your saying is it takes those 3 to equal one Jamal?

:whoknows:

I can see it now...
Jamal Crawford is a god who is stronger, faster, quicker and smarter then 3 mortal men...
Sorry, It's just my opinoin, but it's still a bad trade, and we'd be better off having not made it. But to each thier own.
 

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would have been nice if the Bulls could have kept Mutumbo, since if Curry had to practise everyday against Mutumbo as he would have had to, Curry would be a better player now...

Somebody like Wesley Person could have fulfilled Pike's role
 

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the way I look at the trade is, with Crawford, we won 23 games total. Without him and the players added, we are at 33. Plenty of games left and possible playoffs.

The team Crawford went to is 27-37. Anyone know what NY's record was after 64 games last year? anyway that team made the playoffs with the players they traded off.

We do not miss Jamal.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
ztect said:
would have been nice if the Bulls could have kept Mutumbo, since if Curry had to practise everyday against Mutumbo as he would have had to, Curry would be a better player now...

Somebody like Wesley Person could have fulfilled Pike's role
Yeah, it's really too bad Deke didn't want to play here, as you said just going against him in practice would have helped Eddy. Plus I'm sure he could have shown Tyson a thing or two about defense.

I'm just surprised that the statistics were so close. I was happy with the trade even if it would have just been a salary dump- given the choice of having JYD and JC under contract for the 2006-07 at a combined $13.675 million or $13.675 million in cap space, I'll take the latter 102 times out of 100.
 

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bullsville said:
Yeah, it's really too bad Deke didn't want to play here, as you said just going against him in practice would have helped Eddy. Plus I'm sure he could have shown Tyson a thing or two about defense.

I'm just surprised that the statistics were so close. I was happy with the trade even if it would have just been a salary dump- given the choice of having JYD and JC under contract for the 2006-07 at a combined $13.675 million or $13.675 million in cap space, I'll take the latter 102 times out of 100.
I don't see how close these stats are at all, except in FG % and rebounding numbers where our guys clearly have the advantage.

Just because you shoot a high fg% does not mean you are a threat. These guys barely shoot. I doubt anyone comes into the game wondering what to do to shut down Piatkowski. From a scan of his game-by-game stats, it looks like in the few times that he does go for double figures, we lose more often.

As for rebounds, you could chalk that up to them each being their own guard and playing the same amount of defense that Jamal does. If you average that out amongst three players, that's 1.8 rebounds each.

Jamal beats them pretty soundly in every other category in raw numbers and percentage. He averages 7 more points than 3 players, he blocks more shots than players that are taller than him, he steals the ball in less minutes. Surprised that he has even fewer turnovers than the tumultuous three.

But anyway, (since were on the subject of Jamal) Jamal in NY has been fine.

Yesterday his game against the Heat was on Telemundo and it wasn't extremely bad, but it wasn't particularly good. He juxtaposed a lot of good plays with a lot of bad plays.

First the bad things: He shot 6/17, mostly because he thought he could get the team back with a three, especially in the 3rd and 4th quarter. His reliance on those shots is what helped kill the team. His defense was there on his man, Damon Jones, but wasn't there to help the other team. You could say the same thing about his offense when he didn't have the ball as he stood there most of the time.

But what was particularly different about his game was that he drove in a lot and got opportunities for the rest of team. The Knicks really need the ball in his hands and for him to move. Every time he have the ball and drove in, something good happened, but those times were far and few in between.

Overall, a lot of mistakes he had here but he's improving.

BTW, thanks for wasting my time, BBB.net and preventing any chance for studying. :curse:
 

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bullsville said:
What "savings" are you referring to? I didn't mention any savings, but if you want to then Pax sent over $80 million in guaranteed salary to the Knicks and took back about $12 million.

But hey, Jamal and JYD have obviously helped the Knicks improve immensely over last season, right? :nonono:



It's universally known that the Bulls need a big guard who can defend, what exactly does that have to do with Jamal? We needed a 3-point threat, and Pike is shooting over 40%- he has filled his role very well. Griffin has provided veteran leadership (he was named co-captain by his teammates) and some timely big plays.

But hey, Jamal and JYD have obviously helped the Knicks improve immensely over last season, right? :nonono:
the knicks season has been killed by injuries namely allan houston's , the bulls have been up until recently injury free and i think the results speak for themselves what injuries can do to a team over the last couple of weeks.

and no bull player that was hurt is nearly as good as a healthy allan houston , so quit trying to lay the knicks season at crawford's feet, no one's buying it.

but back to the bulls 3 vs. jamal plus jyd , if you are for one moment believing that they are equal or that the bulls got the better end of the deal , i would seriously if i were you consider some sort of help , do you think for one moment the season would not be far worse if the bulls came back with the same personel and of course the towering 3some of pike, griffin and othella providing depth sans williams and crawford .

heck pike or griffin would have started on last year's team ahead of linton, dupree or erob, showing how weak that team was at small forward , while this year they are the 3rd or 4th string 2 guards behind 2 guys who really are pg size.
 

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truebluefan said:
the way I look at the trade is, with Crawford, we won 23 games total. Without him and the players added, we are at 33. Plenty of games left and possible playoffs.

The team Crawford went to is 27-37. Anyone know what NY's record was after 64 games last year? anyway that team made the playoffs with the players they traded off.

We do not miss Jamal.
Nail on the head, TBF. That was the argument we heard when talking up Jamal as a Bull. It was all about the "W" then. If that was good enough to be the standard then, its good enough to be the standard now.

We're better without Jamal. We're better, period.
 

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disgruntledKNICKfan said:
the knicks season has been killed by injuries namely allan houston's , the bulls have been up until recently injury free and i think the results speak for themselves what injuries can do to a team over the last couple of weeks.

and no bull player that was hurt is nearly as good as a healthy allan houston , so quit trying to lay the knicks season at crawford's feet, no one's buying it.

but back to the bulls 3 vs. jamal plus jyd , if you are for one moment believing that they are equal or that the bulls got the better end of the deal , i would seriously if i were you consider some sort of help , do you think for one moment the season would not be far worse if the bulls came back with the same personel and of course the towering 3some of pike, griffin and othella providing depth sans williams and crawford .

heck pike or griffin would have started on last year's team ahead of linton, dupree or erob, showing how weak that team was at small forward , while this year they are the 3rd or 4th string 2 guards behind 2 guys who really are pg size.
The Bulls have had their own assortment of excuses over the last six years. Who cares?

As the grinch, I'd say Dandy Don Meredith has this argument covered:

If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts, wouldn't it be a Merry Christmas?
 

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Mr. T said:
The Bulls have had their own assortment of excuses over the last six years. Who cares?

As the grinch, I'd say Dandy Don Meredith has this argument covered:
true ...but i just dont think people should try and justify a trade when the main factor in a team's downfall is an injured player that wasn't even involved.

there are few posters in this thread that act as if the knicks have won less because of jamal crawford (and of course the bulls have won more for the lack of him)...and thats pure fantasy, just like the bulls aren't really any better or worse for the likes of pike and adrian griffin on their roster, the bulls could have just as easily have signed a guy like anthony peeler for the vet min. and got similar results .

so dont just talk to me ....
 

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Mr. T said:
Nail on the head, TBF. That was the argument we heard when talking up Jamal as a Bull. It was all about the "W" then. If that was good enough to be the standard then, its good enough to be the standard now.

We're better without Jamal. We're better, period.
When this argument is brought up, it makes it sound as if all we needed to do was get rid of him and the troubles would end. If you argued that, it would be showing that you don't care much for Pax's achievements as much as you care about bashing Jamal. Remember that Pax has added all kinds of players to this current team.

We haven't seen Jamal play with this particular team of Ben, Andres, Deng, Duhon, a slightly improved Kirk Hinrich, a healthy Tyson Chandler, a more focused Eddy Curry.

In the first half of this season I don't think Jamal would have been able to fit with this team, but as the season has gone on and Jamal's play has gradually grown, I think he would've/would been/be a great fit with this team because I think he would address the big guard problems.
 

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bullsville said:
What "savings" are you referring to? I didn't mention any savings, but if you want to then Pax sent over $80 million in guaranteed salary to the Knicks and took back about $12 million.

But hey, Jamal and JYD have obviously helped the Knicks improve immensely over last season, right? :nonono:



It's universally known that the Bulls need a big guard who can defend, what exactly does that have to do with Jamal? We needed a 3-point threat, and Pike is shooting over 40%- he has filled his role very well. Griffin has provided veteran leadership (he was named co-captain by his teammates) and some timely big plays.

But hey, Jamal and JYD have obviously helped the Knicks improve immensely over last season, right? :nonono:
This is totally ot, but I just saw your new avatar, and I would like to respectfully ask you to remove it. I tear up everytime I look at it. :cry:

Wojo is my favorite athlete of all time, and that team (and Duke's meltdown) ended his career. I've never wanted to see a guy win a championship as I did Wojo.

:wink:
 

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Sorry but the whole 23Wins with Jamal and 33 without is like apples and oranges. As is bringing the Knicks record into it.

Jamal had guys like Rick Brunson, Dupree, Shirley, Johnson, Pargo, Kendall Gill... guys playing 20 minutes a game that aren't even in the game anymore. Not to mention key injuries to Chandler, Rose and Pip.

This years team, by comparison has practicly no injuries til late, and no scabs playing major minutes. If someone doesn't think thats the enourmous difference and not losing one player then.... :whoknows:

The teams are so different it's like saying MJ's 98 Bulls won 69 games and his 02 Wizards won 35... They were 2 completely different teams with 2 completely different supporting casts....I mean you can MAKE the statement... but... what does it really mean?

Bottom line is we will never know how much better we'd be with Jamal playing instead of Pike, Hinrich and Duhon. But I guess that doesn't stop people from ripping the guy for some reasons unknown to me. If it helps ya sleep at night...
 

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Discussion Starter #17
The Truth said:
This is totally ot, but I just saw your new avatar, and I would like to respectfully ask you to remove it. I tear up everytime I look at it. :cry:

Wojo is my favorite athlete of all time, and that team (and Duke's meltdown) ended his career. I've never wanted to see a guy win a championship as I did Wojo.

:wink:
Does the name Christian Laettner ring a bell? :cry: And I have seen that play at least 10,000 times since then.

It wasn't until that Duke meltdown that I got over that night in 1992. So, with all due respect...

SCREW YOU!! WE'RE EVEN!!

:laugh:
 

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Jim Ian said:
Sorry but the whole 23Wins with Jamal and 33 without is like apples and oranges. As is bringing the Knicks record into it.

Jamal had guys like Rick Brunson, Dupree, Shirley, Johnson, Pargo, Kendall Gill... guys playing 20 minutes a game that aren't even in the game anymore. Not to mention key injuries to Chandler, Rose and Pip.

This years team, by comparison has practicly no injuries til late, and no scabs playing major minutes. If someone doesn't think thats the enourmous difference and not losing one player then.... :whoknows:

The teams are so different it's like saying MJ's 98 Bulls won 69 games and his 02 Wizards won 35... They were 2 completely different teams with 2 completely different supporting casts....I mean you can MAKE the statement... but... what does it really mean?

Bottom line is we will never know how much better we'd be with Jamal playing instead of Pike, Hinrich and Duhon. But I guess that doesn't stop people from ripping the guy for some reasons unknown to me. If it helps ya sleep at night...
apples and oranges? I disagree. If Jamal is all of that injuries or not, NY would have a better record than they do. It is about the wins. Always has been.

As for us? I can speculate. I will say that had Jamal stayed. Gordon and Deng would not be as far along as they are. I can vision more losses for us? Why? When Gordon would hit thre or four fgs in a row, Jamal would "take his" and that in itself would kill any momentum we may have had. He still takes awful shots at the wrong time. NT media has complained all season long about that.

The players you named played within Skiles system. Jamal would do his thing too often. Because of that some of the other players would feel the need to do something they were not capable of.

This team is a team. Part of that team is some players we received by the fact Jamal was traded. Well maybe it is apples and oranges. Team vs. individual play in a contract season....I will take the team every time. Maybe it wasn't fair to compare Jamal with this teams play. There is no comparions. Bulls are much better off.


As for making excuses for Jamal with the players being hurt in NY...wasn't that what we did for all of the 4 years he was with us?

I am about talked out on this subject. :D You know I will not change my view on this. Jamal has it in him to be the player many of think he already is. He has yet to put it together at both ends of the court.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
The 6ft Hurdle said:
I don't see how close these stats are at all, except in FG % and rebounding numbers where our guys clearly have the advantage.

Just because you shoot a high fg% does not mean you are a threat. These guys barely shoot. I doubt anyone comes into the game wondering what to do to shut down Piatkowski. From a scan of his game-by-game stats, it looks like in the few times that he does go for double figures, we lose more often.

As for rebounds, you could chalk that up to them each being their own guard and playing the same amount of defense that Jamal does. If you average that out amongst three players, that's 1.8 rebounds each.

Jamal beats them pretty soundly in every other category in raw numbers and percentage. He averages 7 more points than 3 players, he blocks more shots than players that are taller than him, he steals the ball in less minutes. Surprised that he has even fewer turnovers than the tumultuous three.
My point wasn't that any of these guys were replacing Jamal, just that they surprisingly (IMO) come somewhat close to the same production in pretty similar minutes. Less points, but more rebounding and defense.

Jamal had already been replaced by Gordon- and Ben has been pretty damn good in that role. In fact, IMO Ben would very likely be getting more minutes if not for Duhon's total surprise effort. Duhon's defense, probably more than anything else, is what kept Ben's minutes down for most of the season.

Jamal doesn't shoot nearly as well or score as efficiently as Ben, and he defense isn't close to what Duhon plays. Jamal was basically a free agent that Pax wasn't interested in resigning, yet Pax was able to turn him into the veteran role players this team was missing last season. Plus, he was able to lose JYD's contract, since JYD's role had already been replaced by Nocioni, who I'll take over JYD any day of the week.

Not as replacements for Jamal, but to complement Jamal's replacement(s), I think Pax made out OK. Just look at what Othella did for us last game- and we own his Bird Rights, we should be able to keep him if we want.

But anyway, (since were on the subject of Jamal) Jamal in NY has been fine.

Yesterday his game against the Heat was on Telemundo and it wasn't extremely bad, but it wasn't particularly good. He juxtaposed a lot of good plays with a lot of bad plays.

First the bad things: He shot 6/17, mostly because he thought he could get the team back with a three, especially in the 3rd and 4th quarter. His reliance on those shots is what helped kill the team. His defense was there on his man, Damon Jones, but wasn't there to help the other team. You could say the same thing about his offense when he didn't have the ball as he stood there most of the time.

But what was particularly different about his game was that he drove in a lot and got opportunities for the rest of team. The Knicks really need the ball in his hands and for him to move. Every time he have the ball and drove in, something good happened, but those times were far and few in between.

Overall, a lot of mistakes he had here but he's improving.

BTW, thanks for wasting my time, BBB.net and preventing any chance for studying. :curse:
Well, if you flunk out you can sue BBB.net, in today's society you'd win millions. :biggrin:
 

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Discussion Starter #20
disgruntledKNICKfan said:
the knicks season has been killed by injuries namely allan houston's , the bulls have been up until recently injury free and i think the results speak for themselves what injuries can do to a team over the last couple of weeks.

and no bull player that was hurt is nearly as good as a healthy allan houston , so quit trying to lay the knicks season at crawford's feet, no one's buying it.

but back to the bulls 3 vs. jamal plus jyd , if you are for one moment believing that they are equal or that the bulls got the better end of the deal , i would seriously if i were you consider some sort of help , do you think for one moment the season would not be far worse if the bulls came back with the same personel and of course the towering 3some of pike, griffin and othella providing depth sans williams and crawford .

heck pike or griffin would have started on last year's team ahead of linton, dupree or erob, showing how weak that team was at small forward , while this year they are the 3rd or 4th string 2 guards behind 2 guys who really are pg size.
The Bulls already had Jamal's replacement in Ben Gordon, who has done quite nicely in the role. The Bulls also already had Duhon and Deng and Nocioni when they traded Jamal- Jamal had already been replaced, he was just an un-needed luxury that Pax was able to turn into 3 veterans who have helped make our bench among the best in the league.

Gordon is scoring better than Jamal and Duhon defends better, those are pretty much given facts around the league. I'm just pleasantly surprised that Paxson was able to turn a guy he didn't want, who couldn't even get an offer sheet from any team, into 3 qualtiy role players.

As for the rest of your post, it's a bunch of stuff I never said or implied, so I have no reply.
 
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