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Discussion Starter #1
I got someone who says collins cant play d either

Can someone find that article real quick about him being like #3 on D for centers?
 

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Thank you, hes enjoying his stfu sandwich
 

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Lol, according to that article, our primary back up big men (Robinson and Jackson) are the 2nd worst defenders in the entire league at their positions, behind Matt Bonner and Primo Brezec, respectively.

Also interesting to note, Carter is the 10th best defensive SF in the league according to this guy's theory.
 

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the ratings are made up of a weighted average of the last three years. You'll see that Robinson was approximately average two and three years ago, but was terrible last year. He says that he suffered from a back injury last year. It'll be interesting to see if he bounces back, or if the numbers reflect an ofverall decline due to age. At any rate, I'm not willing to accept the premise that Cliff is a terrible defender quite yet--until proven otherwise, I'll treat last year as an aberration, and I'll continue to asume taht he is around average defensively . . . .
 

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Collins is an excellent defender. But if you think that the Nets struggles on offense aren't related to his performance, you're living in a fantasy land (not that there's anything wrong w/ that).
 

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someone enlighten me on why Collins is heralded so much... I am not an expert so its probably me lacking insight but what exactly collins do so well on defense that makes him such a great defender? Whenever I see him playing man to man I barely see anything special... If he's overmatched i usually see him fouling them before shot can get up or fouling them so the shots won't go in... its known fact he's not fast enough or can't jump high enough to help block player driving in...

I am a strong believer in having collins as a backup PF or C to help smooth out the team game (as he is used to nets offense and does pretty well when used in high post) and stop the second string big men...

so can one of the collins fan please enlighten me?

i am not trying to diss collins or anything i just want to see the others point of view
 

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JL104 said:
someone enlighten me on why Collins is heralded so much... I am not an expert so its probably me lacking insight but what exactly collins do so well on defense that makes him such a great defender? Whenever I see him playing man to man I barely see anything special... If he's overmatched i usually see him fouling them before shot can get up or fouling them so the shots won't go in... its known fact he's not fast enough or can't jump high enough to help block player driving in...

I am a strong believer in having collins as a backup PF or C to help smooth out the team game (as he is used to nets offense and does pretty well when used in high post) and stop the second string big men...

so can one of the collins fan please enlighten me?

i am not trying to diss collins or anything i just want to see the others point of view
Two things come to mind. He pretty reliably forces his man out farther from the basket when he's defending the post. Its the single most important thing you can do against a quality low post player. Put him in a position where he can't score wo/ getting closer to the basket w/ the dribble. Makes all the difference in the world. As an example (not Collins specific), check out Shaq. Before he ever shoots the ball, you can pretty much tell whether its a score or not. If he's inside, say 8 or 9 feet, its a bucket. Farther than 10, most likely not.

The other thing is that he doesn't miss rotations. He knows where he needs to be at all times, and that's the single most important thing for good team defense. When guys get wide open looks, 9 times out of 10 its because someone missed a rotation.*


* this is actually one of my favorite things about the DVR. When someone gets a wide open look, I like to rewind and see who ****ed up.
 

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hm ic.. so he has the power to push the big man out of their comfort zone.. but it would probably mean trouble if he's guarding players like J O'neal, Duncan, and Garnett right? since they can pretty much either dribble around or take the jumper bit far away from the basket.... but then again there are barely any who can successfully stop those players...

Bit off topic but I just wish there is bit more atheleticsm in Collins... it just kills me when i see collins get a rebound right under the basket but he doesnt' have the athleticism to jump and try to dunk it..
 

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he's also great at drawing charges . . . a charge is worth much more than a blocked shot, but there are no stats to measure which players are best at it.
 

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Dumpy said:
he's also great at drawing charges . . . a charge is worth much more than a blocked shot, but there are no stats to measure which players are best at it.
I don't know if I agree w/ the bolded portion. In the micro (an individual instance), yes. But in the macro, I think you are much better off w/a shotblocker. There just aren't that many opportunities to get a charge. Every time someone gets to the hoop there's a chance to block (or just as importantly) alter a shot. I'd rather have a shot blocker than a charge taker on my front line.
 

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SeaNet said:
I don't know if I agree w/ the bolded portion. In the micro (an individual instance), yes. But in the macro, I think you are much better off w/a shotblocker. There just aren't that many opportunities to get a charge. Every time someone gets to the hoop there's a chance to block (or just as importantly) alter a shot. I'd rather have a shot blocker than a charge taker on my front line.
First of all, why are you even awake? Second, in theory you make a good point--the problem is that there are no stats on how many charges players draw. If Collins just draws a half a charge more than the average center, then, yeah, shot blocking ability would probably be more valuable because of the fear factor. At some point, though, charges overtake blocks. I mean, a single charge is worth more than a single block, as you recognizel; you get possession AND give an opposing player a foul, while a block may not even get you possession. It just SEEMS like Collins draws a lot of charges; it may not actually be true--who really knows? Anyway, if you're listing Collins' skills, you've got to put "drawing charges" on the plus side of the ledger, regardless of their relative value.

(speaking of which, I'd love to see an analysis of the expected percentage of blocked shots that result in a change of possession, and whether certain players are better at this than others)
 

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Dumpy said:
First of all, why are you even awake? Second, in theory you make a good point--the problem is that there are no stats on how many charges players draw. If Collins just draws a half a charge more than the average center, then, yeah, shot blocking ability would probably be more valuable because of the fear factor. At some point, though, charges overtake blocks. I mean, a single charge is worth more than a single block, as you recognizel; you get possession AND give an opposing player a foul, while a block may not even get you possession. It just SEEMS like Collins draws a lot of charges; it may not actually be true--who really knows? Anyway, if you're listing Collins' skills, you've got to put "drawing charges" on the plus side of the ledger, regardless of their relative value.

(speaking of which, I'd love to see an analysis of the expected percentage of blocked shots that result in a change of possession, and whether certain players are better at this than others)
LOL!!! I had to be in early for more orientation. Working for a large corporation is a strange experience.

I agree that drawing charges should have been on the plus side of the ledger. However, I do not agree that charges overtake blocks at any point (well, any point likely to be achieved, anyway). The thing w/ blocks is that eventually players stop coming towards the hoop, and take the pull up J instead of the layup. That cannot be measured, but it cannot be undervalued either. I remember Dominique Wilkins saying when Manute Bol was in the game it was either a 12 foot jumper or a dunk. Anything other than that was going to get blocked. Can't measure that, but it sure has a HUGE effect on the game. More recently, when Okafor was in college, I watched many games where he had 4 or 5 blocks in the first 10 minutes and then only got maybe 1 more the rest of the game. He hadn't become less effective. In fact, he had become more effective. The entire team just stopped taking it to the hoop.
 

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SeaNet said:
LOL!!! I had to be in early for more orientation. Working for a large corporation is a strange experience.

I agree that drawing charges should have been on the plus side of the ledger. However, I do not agree that charges overtake blocks at any point (well, any point likely to be achieved, anyway). The thing w/ blocks is that eventually players stop coming towards the hoop, and take the pull up J instead of the layup. That cannot be measured, but it cannot be undervalued either. I remember Dominique Wilkins saying when Manute Bol was in the game it was either a 12 foot jumper or a dunk. Anything other than that was going to get blocked. Can't measure that, but it sure has a HUGE effect on the game. More recently, when Okafor was in college, I watched many games where he had 4 or 5 blocks in the first 10 minutes and then only got maybe 1 more the rest of the game. He hadn't become less effective. In fact, he had become more effective. The entire team just stopped taking it to the hoop.
The reverse should be true then. If you do not have a shot blocker teams should be taking it to the hole every night. Yet, with the Nets everyone is shooting perimeter jumpers. I know the perimeter players are sagging in to help in the post, but I would still think teams would be going to the hoop more with no shot blocker back there.

I also think at the NBA level getting your shot blocked doesn't stop you from going to the rim. Neither does a charge call. Miami had Zero back there swatting shots last Nets' game and there were still 4 major dunks in his face. I would think the more a person is blocking shots the more the opposing coach would want his players going at him. He can't pick up fouls and have to leave the game if no one goes near him.
 

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JL104 said:
hm ic.. so he has the power to push the big man out of their comfort zone.. but it would probably mean trouble if he's guarding players like J O'neal, Duncan, and Garnett right? since they can pretty much either dribble around or take the jumper bit far away from the basket.... but then again there are barely any who can successfully stop those players...

Bit off topic but I just wish there is bit more atheleticsm in Collins... it just kills me when i see collins get a rebound right under the basket but he doesnt' have the athleticism to jump and try to dunk it..
JON & Timmy still want to receive the ball in their comfort spot before making a move. The big difference is that JON will fade away from contact the majority of the time because he doesn't like receiving contact.
 

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Netted- said:
The reverse should be true then. If you do not have a shot blocker teams should be taking it to the hole every night. Yet, with the Nets everyone is shooting perimeter jumpers. I know the perimeter players are sagging in to help in the post, but I would still think teams would be going to the hoop more with no shot blocker back there.

I also think at the NBA level getting your shot blocked doesn't stop you from going to the rim. Neither does a charge call. Miami had Zero back there swatting shots last Nets' game and there were still 4 major dunks in his face. I would think the more a person is blocking shots the more the opposing coach would want his players going at him. He can't pick up fouls and have to leave the game if no one goes near him.
The thing is, you need to get past your perimeter defender before you can drive into the lane. As I've noted before, the Nets have some excellent defenders on the perimeter if used correctly (Vince on Ridnour was genius by Frank/coaching staff). I agree with you that getting into the hole with Nenad Krstic and Marc Jackson in your face isn't the scariest thing in the world, but the hard part is getting past Kidd, RJ, VC, and even McInnis first.

I haven't actually tried to look for this, but perhaps Frank has had his perimeter defenders sag off a little bit to keep opponents from driving in, as you have mentioned. A zone also does the trick (which the Nets also employ). Unfortunately, as everyone knows, you beat a zone through ball movement and outside shooting and many of their opponents this season so far have had great shooters.

It's possible that opposing teams quickly realized this strategy of the Nets having their perimeter players focus on stopping penetration to make up for a lack of inside presence, and that's why teams have been making 60% or so of their shots outside the paint.

However, I think the Nets found a nice balance between sticking to their man on the perimeter while still stopping penetration against Seattle. This is especially noteworthy because Seattle is team known for their outside shooting (Ridnour, Allen, Lewis, Vlad, etc)., one that could easily break the Nets defense of zone and penetration prevention.

It was smart matchups by Frank and the defensive prowess of the Nets perimeter defenders that were key in stopping the Sonics a couple nights ago, and I think this is just one step in their evolution as the season rolls along in becoming a pretty good (dare I say, great?) defensive team.
 
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