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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Do we go into next season with him on the roster? Is he signed for another year? I sure hope not, he's pretty much still starting because Scott is still playing favorites, which IMO is a pathetic excuse.

Remember how smooth our offense ran when we had a reliable, effective center like T-Mac. We are struggling in areas that can easily be fixed with a decent center in the middle.

I was trying to think of one starting center I'd wouldn't want to have over Collins, and not one comes to mind. I'd take any of the three centers from Seattle (forget about the money for a second), I would take Haywood, and I'd even take Kaman.

I sure hope the center position is adressed this offseason, if not sooner.
 

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Maybe will be Krstic your center... Anyway I think Jason can be usefull.. as a pick- up cheap center..I 'd sign him to a 3 years contract.. he is not that bad.. just has to play too much..
 

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Nenad Krstic should be coming over next year. I doubt he'll start right away, though. Collins is signed through next year, and would be a restricted FA in the summer of '05.

I don't know what to say about Collins. I'm pretty sure he's not 100% at this point. I was thinking that maybe they can rest him a couple of games once (if) Griffin gets into the rotation.

You can look at his stats, and say that he's one of the worst centers in the league. But the thing is, that if the Nets big 4 are playing well, you don't need much from Collins. There are only so many points and rebounds to go around. The same can be said about Kittles when you think about it. Kidd, Martin and Jefferson are the scorers on this team. When they are playing well, KK just needs to hit the open jumper when he gets it, collect his 12-13 PPG, and play great D.

When I look at this team, I don't immediately look at Collins as the problem. He runs the offense well, makes good passes, and doesn't make big mistakes. He has physical deficiencies (like his small hands, which make it hard for him to hold on to the ball in traffic, but help his FT shooting), but he plays hard.

For the Nets, games are not lost when Collins is on the floor, but rather when Kidd comes off the floor. Last night, even though Kidd was somewhat mediocre by his own standards, the score was even when he was in the game, and the Mavs outscored the Nets by 13 when he wasn't.

When I think about the summer, I just want them to (after re-signing K-Mart) add some solid bench contributors, and develop Planinic. He could be the key to their future success.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Originally posted by <b>schub</b>!
Nenad Krstic should be coming over next year. I doubt he'll start right away, though. Collins is signed through next year, and would be a restricted FA in the summer of '05.

I don't know what to say about Collins. I'm pretty sure he's not 100% at this point. I was thinking that maybe they can rest him a couple of games once (if) Griffin gets into the rotation.

You can look at his stats, and say that he's one of the worst centers in the league. But the thing is, that if the Nets big 4 are playing well, you don't need much from Collins. There are only so many points and rebounds to go around. The same can be said about Kittles when you think about it. Kidd, Martin and Jefferson are the scorers on this team. When they are playing well, KK just needs to hit the open jumper when he gets it, collect his 12-13 PPG, and play great D.

When I look at this team, I don't immediately look at Collins as the problem. He runs the offense well, makes good passes, and doesn't make big mistakes. He has physical deficiencies (like his small hands, which make it hard for him to hold on to the ball in traffic, but help his FT shooting), but he plays hard.

For the Nets, games are not lost when Collins is on the floor, but rather when Kidd comes off the floor. Last night, even though Kidd was somewhat mediocre by his own standards, the score was even when he was in the game, and the Mavs outscored the Nets by 13 when he wasn't.

When I think about the summer, I just want them to (after re-signing K-Mart) add some solid bench contributors, and develop Planinic. He could be the key to their future success.


I wasn't talking about scoring. He doesn't do anything that benefits our team other then being a decent FT shooter. Can't rebound, can't score, IMO is soft, he's slow (Deke is faster then Collins at this point), and he doesn't use his 7 foot body to his advantage at all. He honestly offers nothing for our team. Scott plays him because he understands the motion offense.


And the injury excuse shouldn't be used, because he has been playing this way since he started. He is not a bad center to have off the bench, but a terrible center to be your everyday starter.

Kristic may be a good player, but the odds of him coming into the league next year and holding his own is slim. There is still a chance that he may not be good at all.



All I'm saying is that Collins as our starting center is a joke. He doesn't do anything better then A-Train, and I honestly believe, that there are guys in the NBDL who would help us out more at center then Collins has. Don't forget, we are the worst rebounding team in the NBA.
 

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Yes, Collins in the weakest link in the starting 5. I would love it if Mourning was healthy and starting, or at least getting 20 MPG. But in no way is Collins the difference between this team winning and losing.

Every championship team has a less-than-average starter. The Spurs had Bowen, the Lakers had Fox, the Bulls had Luc Longley/Bill Cartwright. I think they would have won just as many titles with Jason Collins starting at center (even though he was only 13 years old when they started their run ;)).

Jason Collins was the Nets starting center when they won 10 in a row in the playoffs last year. I didn't hear much complaining then.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Originally posted by <b>schub</b>!
Jason Collins was the Nets starting center when they won 10 in a row in the playoffs last year. I didn't hear much complaining then.

People weren't complaining as much about Scott back then, but obviously thing change. All of the teams that you mentioned had a dominating force at at least one position, and they were able to hid their weak links. We are the worst rebounding team in the NBA.
 

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Collins looks the part: big body, long arms. When the team stars are 'on', he's good enough as a complement. He's smart, a good teammate and works hard. Unfortunately, when the stars need more help and look to Collins for the things a C traditionally is supposed to offer (low-post scoring, shot-blocking, rebounding), Twin comes up short. Twin offers less options than a pivot is supposed to in the motion offense. Brad Miller and Vlade Divac are good reference points.

Twin hasn't played well this season and he's playing hurt, but I think the reason he's taking so much heat is the championship series. It was critical that Twin match up evenly with the aged, retiring David Robinson. The Admiral dominated the match-up, instead. Since then, the harsh spotlight has been on him.

He's been a Net long enough for us to catalog what he can and can't do. I already knew Collins couldn't make a lay-up. What worries me is the rebounding and the increase of passive play. Last season, he was an aggressive offensive rebounder. This season, he's offered little on the boards. Collins knows the offense and passes well, but it hurts that he doesn't drive, move off the ball well and has a hard time inside. Add the lack of offensive rebounds this season and inconsistent mid-range shooting, and Twin simply isn't doing enough in the motion offense.

As a point of contrast, in terms of the pivot in the motion offense, Scalabrine offered a short glimpse against the Mavs of what a pivot is supposed to do in the motion offense - decision-making, decisive action, positioning, pass, drive, move off the ball, shoot, go strong inside. Brad Miller kind of stuff. The only thing he didn't show was a back-to-basket low-post move. Veal quite possibly has the best skill-set on the Nets to play the pivot in the motion offense; it's too bad he isn't asked by his coach to do so more often.

To be fair to Twin, none of the Nets are Brad Miller or Vlade Divac. Veal lacks the size, rebounding and shot-blocking to be a fixture at C. Also, neither Zo nor Deke were well-suited for the pivot in the motion offense.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Nice post NYCbballfan. Last nights overall game from Collins was not what inspired me to start this post. He did somethings last night that I have been seeing him do all season. Being out rebounded, to slow to get into good position under the hoop. These aren't difficult things to ask for from your starting center. Like I said earlier, other then being a big body, the guy offers nothing to our team.

Scott is a moron, plain and simple. How can he ever say someone isn't ready or not the right type of player to play in the motion offense when he starts Collins every night. Deke would be just as good as Collins is in the motion offense, at least he would've had big rebounding games once in a while. Collins would be a nice center to have off the bench, but when you're the worst rebounding team in the NBA, and your center is coming up short night in and night out, then you deserve to lose.




On a happy note, Kristic scored 32 points in 30 minutes in his last game. 12/14 FGs 9/9 FTs
 

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Twin played 21 minutes against the Mavs. Twin can still start but 20 MPG seems fair given his level of play right now. Last night, a bulk of the additional 27 minutes at C went to Rogers, which didn't work out.

I hope Williams is okay. He must have reinjured himself - that's the only reason I can think of why played so little. When he's healthy, I'd like to see the other 28 minutes at C distro'ed between A-Train and Veal. One of them should finish out games, depending on the match-up. Right now, A-Train is a better shot-blocker, rebounder and low-post presence. Veal offers more in terms of the greater skill-set required of a pivot in the motion offense (again, I use Miller and Divac as the models).

Scott can be stubborn in the face of obvious evidence. Even when he adjusts, it seems he returns to bad habits, such as sticking to a prescripted rotation and going back to his starting line-up, even when a bench player is 'hot'. His loyalty to players like Twin, Lu and Rogers, whether or not they do their jobs. I don't get why he uses the Harris/Kittles back-court so much. It doesn't work in the current offense. It should only be used (a) in an emergency situation with no PG options remaining or (b) in an adjusted team offense run out of the low-post, a la mid-90s low-post dominated teams like the Knicks and Rockets. Grind some combination of Veal, A-Train, Rogers and Martin into the low-post, suck in the defense and spot up Harris and Kittles. It's brutal basketball, but a Harris/Kittles back-court can't be expected to do much more.

It's like the argument against Twin. A Harris/Kittles backcourt and Collins can perfectly understand the motion offense, but if they lack the skills to do the job, then it doesn't matter what they know. Players can't do what they can't do.
 

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NYC, when you had suggested using Veal at the 5 earlier in the year, I thought you were crazy, but I'm starting to agree with you. I actually liked the front court rotation they had when Train was injured (and when Rodney wasn't playing), using Veal at the 3, 4 or 5, depending on whether they were sitting Martin, Jefferson or Collins.

Now, with Williams back, and hopefully Griffin in the rotation in the next couple of weeks, I think the Nets are fine up front. Collins doesn't need to get more than 20 MPG. (I still don't think he's the reason the Nets are losing games, but I do agree that he's not a very good center.) I thought Scalabrine looked great last night. I, like NYC, hope that Byron is taking notice, and continues to give him minutes. The only problem is that he can't stop bigger, more talented post players on defense. Jermaine O'Neal got some easy baskets when Veal was guarding him.


I've said before that if Harris isn't effective, that the 3-guard rotation is pointless. The Nets are talking to Hubert Davis now, and if Pack doesn't play any non-garbage time in the next couple of games, I don't know why they would keep him around when this 10-day runs out. I really hope Planinic gets another shot soon.
 

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From the begining of this season, I thought Collins has degressed. It could be that he has maxed out and doesn't have much to improve on, but to me his decision making and aggresiveness has gone downwards. He looks more and more like a 30 something vet who is in the downside of his career. Like some of you mentioned, when things gone well he would look nice but vice versa. The good thing is, we can offer him a small extension and have a solid backup C for years to come.:cool:
 

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NYC, when you had suggested using Veal at the 5 earlier in the year, I thought you were crazy, but I'm starting to agree with you. I actually liked the front court rotation they had when Train was injured (and when Rodney wasn't playing), using Veal at the 3, 4 or 5, depending on whether they were sitting Martin, Jefferson or Collins.
Well, Scalabrine keeps showing these flashes of the strengths in his game, and Scott keeps not using those strengths to the team's advantage. It's especially frustrating since Veal's strengths are skills the Nets need. As I've said before, Veal has impressed me by earning minutes despite playing a given role that accentuates his weaknesses while minimizing his strengths.

Scalabrine is more often talked about in terms of his weaknesses rather than his strengths, but that's the coach's fault for how he's used. He's not a gifted rebounder and he's not a lock-down defender, but he wasn't supposed to be those things when he was drafted. To his credit, he works hard, thinks on the floor, boxes out and rarely allows his man (if his man is a PF or C) to get past him. The effort is at least reliable, and for a player often at a disadvantage against bigger or quicker and at times stronger players, he's pretty good with the fouls.

Using Scalabrine's 2001 draft scouting reports (good motor, skilled low-post scorer, good shooter, good passer, mobile with decent handle, high bball IQ) as a reference for what he's shown in flashes as a Net, it's clear he's a natural for the pivot role in the motion offense. It's easy to wonder why he isn't used that way by his coach.
 
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