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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Don't worry about Jay, he's gonna be fine.

Two things he'll probably excell at immediately:
1) pick and roll - a deft outside shooter and handles to match

2) running the floor - his herky-jerky hesitation and crossover dribble is filthy! he's gonna break lots of ankles this season

Two things he'll probably stuggle with:
1) defending pick and roll - he's strong but still will get smashed a bit on picks

2) decision-making - an rookie PG is gonna take some lumps, he's still more of a combo guard at this point too


I hope (after watching tonights game possibly) that all concerns about his quickness and floor game will be put to rest. Williams is going to be great and this season will definitely be exciting. Sure he'll take his lumps, but his future is bright, as is the future of the whole organization.

VD
 

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I said it long before the Bulls selected JWill, that he wouldn't be that good at the NBA level. I campaign, to no avail, for the Bulls to select a different player. I argued that JWill was too small to be a SG and doesn't have the pass-first PG mentality. Although it was just one game, I am beginning to believe that I was right all along. What kind of PG shoots 6 for 18 with 6 fouls, 5 turnovers, and just 3 assists? Answer: A highly overrated one. I watched that game tonight and saw JWill gun and miss shot after shot when he was wide open. And then listen to the announcers talk about how special he's going to be. Talk about a total bias. Compare JWills stats to JC's (who had a horrible game by his standards), JC was 3-8 with 5 rebs, 3 assists, and zero TOs in just 23 minutes.

What sickens me the most is that I don't care if JWill shoots 6 for 18 or 12 for 18, I just don't want a PG who shoots that much and doesn't have any assists and has a lot of turnovers to boot. And ideal PG shoots 5 for 8 from the field, has about 4 free throws, 10+ assists, fewer than 3 turnovers, and a couple of rebs. I watched him get schooled by guys who won't even make the Grizzlies too. JWill you were great at Duke, but this isn't Raliegh, NC baby. "You're in the main chamber now, you're going need to use the big-boy voice."

What I saw today was very discouraging. A ball hog who couldn't shoot well against scrubs. He dribbled off his foot, made errant passes, the whole nine yards. If JC isn't starting ahead of shrimpy, I'm contacting the Warren Commission myself and demanding an investigation into the Bulls PG Conspiracy.

One more thing, JWill's crossover isn't nothign compared to JC's.
 

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Your criticism of Williams tells me you don't quite understand the relevance of summer league. Summer league stats are TERRIBLE indicators of how a player will perform on the NBA level. Historically speaking, the numbers just never hold up. These are glorified pickup games, and I'm sorry but if you ever kept track of your stats in a pickup game they would not look so hot. You'd have tons of TOs and shoot a much worse FG% than you'd think.

In the past I've heard people go on and on about how Deshawn Stevenson or Shammond Williams or god knows who else are gonna be the next big thing because they dominate in summer league. Yeah, look how dominant they've been. It's just a completely different type of game than the NBA, and it does a disservice to fans to publicize the stats because they are so misleading. They honestly mean NOTHING.

Remember that each league that is not the NBA churns out very different looking stats. Euro League stats and college stats are generally poor indicators of NBA success. That is why there are scouts. These guys recognize how talent will translate in the NBA.

And Williams was the consensus top player in the draft, and with good reason. He will become a top PG without a doubt. Yes, he will take his lumps. Yes he will commit TOs in the beginning. Yes, he may not always have a good shooting night. BUT, his talent is unquestionable and he's proven himself as a top notch passer and scorer from the PG at the top college level for 3 years. You can call him a shoot-first PG if you want, but don't deny his ability to create for others, because he is a fantastic passer, and not at all selfish. So give the kid time because you will be pleasantly surprised with how successful he'll be.
 

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While I agree that summer leagues do not necessarily predict how a player will perform during the regular season, they usually reveal certain tendancies, flaws, and abilities. You're also correct that one game of poor shooting doesn't mean anything. But 19 of 52 over a 4 game stretch is not good, no matter if you're playing in a glorified pick up game or in a regular season game against the world best defenders. As I said in my original post, it's not his shooting percentage that I am so concerned about, it's the fact that he's shooting 52 times, has 21 turnovers, and has very few assists. That doesn't sound like a PG to me, no matter how you slice it.

I hate to correct you since you seem so knowledgable and all, JWill did not play PG for Duke his JR and SR year, he played SG. Chris Duhon played PG (if I am not imstaken). Furthermore, as several ex-Dukies have proven, just because you excel at NCAA level, doesn't mean you're going to do the same at the NBA level. If you doubt me, ask Christian Laetnerr, Danny Ferry, and Bobby Hurly. All of which either won POY or were in the running for it. JWill was a stud at college when he played against guys his size and a lot slower. He also had the benefit of being on a team that was stacked with talent. Duke had at least 4 guys who could carry the team if necessary (Duhon, Dunleavy, Boozer, and JWill).

What concerns me is that now JWill will have to play PG and will match up with guys several inches taller than him and many guys that are quicker than him. The three pointer arc is back a few feet (a few out of his range which is obviously based on his shooting % from 3-pt land).

I love the Bulls more than anyone, but I am just sick and tired about hearing about JWill. I want him to prove himself and to earn his stripes at the NBA level before everyone starts ranting and raving about how great he is or putting him on a Wheaties Box.

As far as my stats would go in a pick up game, I would bet that if I had the same number of open, uncontested shots from the perimeter that I would make more than 6 of 18. No wait, actually I wouldn't ... because even a scrub like me would know that if I was playing PG, my job wouldn't be to shoot. It would be to pass and get my team involved.

As for JWill being a top PG in the NBA, all I can say is that I hope you're right. I just remember everyone trying to tell me that Mateen Cleeves would be a great PG in the NBA too.
 

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The difference between Jay and the three Dukies you mention plus Mateen is that Jay as an above average NBA athlete for his position. Couple that with the skills he has developed playing for a major program, and you have a major talent.

But in a way I agree with you. I would like to see the production match the hype.
 

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Your Argument is full of gaping holes.....

=As I said in my original post, it's not his shooting percentage that I am so concerned about, it's the fact that he's shooting 52 times, has 21 turnovers, and has very few assists. That doesn't sound like a PG to me, no matter how you slice it.
1) That explains why you are an NBA SCOUT (note the sarcasm)

2) Did you even watch the game last night? Do you know how many open shots he got for his teammates that they just (gasp) didn't make??? Assists only occur if the teammates you pass to (here's a concept) MAKE THE SHOT. Last night, they didn't....and I counted at least 6 or 7 occasions when they should have.

hate to correct you since you seem so knowledgable and all, JWill did not play PG for Duke his JR and SR year, he played SG. Chris Duhon played PG (if I am not imstaken).
3) You are mistaken. At duke there were 2 PG's....one a shooting PG, and one a passing PG, but they were both PG's which is evidenced by JW's listing as a PG and the fact that he brought the ball up 40% of the time (Duhon's % was about the same, and then there was Dunleavy/ewing/etc....) Continuing on......

What concerns me is that now JWill will have to play PG and will match up with guys several inches taller than him
Smaller PG's do that all the time.....just liek bibby/francis/davis/marbury, etc......

and many guys that are quicker than him.
And WHAT?? There are not many guys quicker than him. A few, yes............many? No.

The three pointer arc is back a few feet (a few out of his range which is obviously based on his shooting % from 3-pt land). ADDENDUM--in pickup gamesjavascript:smilie(':rolleyes:')


Please, JW hits that shot all the time..even did so in college. Range is a non-issue.

I love the Bulls more than anyone, but I am just sick and tired about hearing about JWill.
Which really strikes at the heart of what this is really all about.

A personal problem if you ask me.

As far as my stats would go in a pick up game, I would bet that if I had the same number of open, uncontested shots from the perimeter that I would make more than 6 of 18.
There are two problems with this statement. 1st you are not in summerleague, playing against these guys...you are not bringing the ball up and trying to direct traffic against very talented guys.

2nd--not even close to 18 of his shots were open looks, as most of the time he was creating. Again....did you watch the same game as everyone else??

No wait, actually I wouldn't ... because even a scrub like me would know that if I was playing PG, my job wouldn't be to shoot. It would be to pass and get my team involved.
Well, that is how you run YOUR TEAM. Not everyone is inclined to do so....nor should they. PG's should be allowed to do what they do best to help the team win....and if that means scoring then that is what they should do. TO force JW to tone his explosiveness down would amount to shackling him.

As for some of the other comments.....

What I saw today was very discouraging. A ball hog who couldn't shoot well against scrubs.
Or perhaps the best scoring option on the floor....the only one who can get his own shot all the way to the hoop. And oh yeah, he just happened to miss more than he made--In the NBA, that happens to Guards.


If JC isn't starting ahead of shrimpy, I'm contacting the Warren Commission myself and demanding an investigation into the Bulls PG Conspiracy.

One more thing, JWill's crossover isn't nothign compared to JC's.
I was gonna take that apart 1 piece at a time, but decided to lump it together.

Firstly after 2 years in the NBA, against NBA competition JC still acts like Defense is a term that only applies to lawyers. If anyone was repeatedly burned on Pick and Rolls last night it was him. Everyone knows to fight over the top of a screen, not duck underneath it to avoid contact. That is an act of cowardice.

Repeating the last part.......

One more thing, JWill's crossover isn't nothign compared to JC's.
THat may be true (I'll agree), but Jwill is stronger, faster, quicker, more explosive, more agressive, and more willing to finish than JC.

WIthout the above traits, a crossover is just a plaything, best left on the playground with the little girls.

One
 

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I agree with a lot of what you said, but the crossover can be very effective and JC has nearly perfected it. He honestly has one of the best crossovers in the league and that allows him to create his own shot fairly easy. It isn't best left on the playground, that was a silly comment.
 

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I agree. Unneeded exaggeration perhaps. But still my main point about it was that a good crossover BY itsself is useless. And unless you can effectively use it to free yourself up for good looks (I don't count jumpshots of 21 ft and deeper good looks out of a crossover dribble that leaves your man stumbling.....something that JC did twice last night.) If you can't use it to get a better shot than that (something that JC could have easily done if he had simply shook his man and taken an extra dribble and 2-3 steps toward the basket), you are not using it effectively enough. A crossover pullup from 23 ft is again, a playground move. I know, I used to do it all the time.

Each time he effectively used it, there was at least 6 feet between him and the next nearest defender as the one in front of him usually had no chance of recovery. All I am saying is that his decision to shoot the 21-22 footer is not what I call "getting a good shot" at least not in that situation.

Guess it goes back to his aggressiveness.....or lack thereof. If he doesn't get aggressive, not only will he not be the starting PG, but he may not be the starting 2 either...

For the record, though I am a huge Jwill supporter, that fact does not make me a Jcraw hater. IN fact, I believe that Crawford's unique abilities only enhance Jwill's game. But still, he lacks aggression.
 

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How about Trenton Hassel driving to the hoop last night, he looked really good to me that was before my wife made me turn off the game for one of her shows.
 

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Come to think of it, JC's reluctance to attack the rim exposes one of the problems I have with MOST (95%) of todays basketball players......the lack of a midrange game.

H*ll, I would have been happy if he had just shook his man, penetrated to the FT line (he came out of the Crossover going in that direction both times anyway), and simply pulled up from 15.
 

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How about Trenton Hassel driving to the hoop last night, he looked really good to me that was before my wife made me turn off the game for one of her shows.
Trenton's definitely a keeper. I like his aggressiveness, though his deep shooting is spotty at times. All in all, he could continue to start if I were GM.
 

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A couple points of note

TO MichaelOFAZ on JWill:

Williams IS, ALWAYS has been, and ALWAYS will be a PG. At Duke he was moved off the ball (but still handled many PG duties, especially in crunch time) because Chris Duhon was arguably the best pass-first PG in the NCAA. It made sense for the team, and is in no way a reflection of JWill's inability to handle PG duties. He was the primary PG his fresh and soph seasons (and a damn good one at that!), and his junior year he basically made room for Duhon in the backcourt.

Now clearly JWill may not be YOUR ideal PG, but a top-tier PG he is nonetheless. True, he is not a strictly pass-first guy. He is not in the John Stockton/Jason Kidd mold. No one ever said he was. he IS a great scorer, so he should use it to his advantage. As long as he gets his teammates involved it shouldn't be an issue, and Jay is certainly not a selfish player. He showed at Duke the ability to be a top scorer, while regularly getting his teammates involved and put up excellent assist numbers. He is more in the mold of a Gary Payton or Baron Davis - a scorer who can still put up 8+ apg and still being a great court leader.

As for the insinuation that he might flop because past Duke players have, that is a retty bad argument. First off, many schools produce flops - not just Duke. BUT, if you look at how the program has evolved in recent years, Duke who used to rely heavily on skill guys who lacked athleticism (Ferry, Laettner, Hurley) they have begun recruiting better athletes. As such, Duke has produced some great NBA players in recent years from Hill to Brand to Battier to Maggette. There's just not enough reason to believe that because he went to Duke that somehow he won't be good. He is independent of all other Duke players with the exception of how he's been coached, and I doubt you would want to question Coach K's ability to teach.
 

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The Krakken,

To answer your question, yes I watched the game last night. Not only did I watch it, but I taped it and closed examined each play. And yes, I was exaggerating a bit when I implied that all 18 of JWill shots were wide open. But suffice it to say that the vast majority of them were indeed clean looks. I also evaluated his performance on his pass attempts, which were few and far between.

I also noticed that you conveniently failed to comment on his 21 turnovers. But I'm sure that you have an excuse for those as well. After all you're the one with the NBA scouting creditials and the killer cross-over move. I think that just as easy as you're able to evaluate and praise JWill for mediocre play, I am equally entitled to criticize. It doesn't make me a scout, it makes me a passionate fan.

As far Duke positions went, I'm not going to get technical and argue about who played PG, SG, or PG#2. All I know is that Chris Duhon ran the Duke offense a fair amount of the time. And I will concede that JWill played the traditional PG role some of the time. I'll also concede, which is obvious, that he was deserving of POY honors for the past 2 years. But I'll go back to my original point, just because you're a great college player doesn't mean that you're going to be a great NBA player.

As far as your comparisons to Bibby and Francis. Although these guys are capable of scoring, their first priority is to distribute. Which is statisically proven by their apg. As for Marbury, you've proven my point. Marbury is a perfect example of a SG in a PG's body. A guy who can score in bunches when shoot 30 times per game but doesn't have the ability or desire to pass and make the players around him better. Jason Kidd, almost singlehandled tooked Marbury's Nets from last place to the NBA finals because of his ability to make his teammates better. Marbury doesn't have that trait and never will.

As far as there being many guys quicker than him. That's really a matter of opinion and perception. Perhaps is was a bit overexaggerated.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Jay Williams had the fastest shuttle run time of anyone at the Chicago pre-draft camp (from ESPN Insider). Yes, this doesn't mean a whole lot, but maybe it'll add some fuel to the fire. So yeah, the guy is quick.

My two cents (again), Jay Williams will be fine. 14ppg/5ast/3reb next season.

VD
 

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Michael, I wasn't actually asking you about last nights game. It was a rhetorical question. I know you watched it. Otherwise espousing stats alone would make for a baseless argument.

Yes, Jwill had some clean looks....and he missed some. But he also made some too. Actually he did pass a lot. How many times did Curry go to the line on the break off a Jwill pass? If he finishes, those become assists. What about the open looks missed by Craw, Mason, and Hassell....usually set up buy Jwills penetration/passing. Again, they missed and no assists.

Yes he had 21 TO's. ANd no I won't make excuses....excpet to say that hopefully (and more than likely), he'll get better.

After all you're the one with the NBA scouting creditials
NO

and the killer cross-over move.
Yes. :D

. I think that just as easy as you're able to evaluate and praise JWill for mediocre play, I am equally entitled to criticize. It doesn't make me a scout, it makes me a passionate fan.
Again, you missed the sarcasm. Oh well.

Jason Kidd, almost singlehandled tooked Marbury's Nets from last place to the NBA finals because of his ability to make his teammates better. Marbury doesn't have that trait and never will.
Jkidd didn't either. He had bunches (and I mean BUNCHES of help), that most people conveniently ignore.

I'll get into that later.
 

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I think that Jwill can be effective and has the heart, he just has to learn the NBA game. By the time the season starts JC should be the starter....and play the most minutes. He should be a mainstay here for a long time in my opinion. Jwill will need time but until he learns, Craw should be our man. Craw reminds me alot of Lavernaeus Coles of the Jets.....talent galore and got hurt his first season. Not as severe of corse, but a special player who got bigger and better and is now a breakout player. JC wants to be the best, and is working hard to prove he can be.
 

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If JC will not penetrate they need to play JWill. I liked the fact that JC has been taking care of the ball but things would open so much more for guys like Chandler and Curry if he penetrated and finished. He has an outside shot, and he has handles. He should be able to get by guys.
 

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BCH,

you hit it on the head. If JC doesn't open things up for other guys on the offensive end, he will lose his job. His defense isn't great.

Yes, I know, He can bomb away and has been doing wondeful, etc......and I am huge supporter of his (and don't want him traded), but you have to penetrate and dish as a point. Hell, to be effective outside, you gotta blow past someone and embarrass them.


Hoping he's gaining the confidence needed to drive to bucket.....


Go Bulls!
 

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I could't agree more CeoChase. I think JWill will turn into a fine player in a couple of years. But JC is a ready, capable, and talented player right now. For those of you who question his ability to take the ball to the hole, I can only say it will happen. From the games that I watched last season on NBA League Pass and the summer league game against the Grizzlies, it's clear to me that JC understand the importance of proper spacing. I've seen him a couple of occasions drive to the basket and put up a floater. I've also seen him take it hard to rim. The new NBA (with zone D) does not support the little man driving to the hoop for some whirlin-dirvish reverse layup nearly as much as it did in years past. Furthermore the Bulls hope to run the Triangle offense which does not support a traditional PG. In fact, a SF could play point in the Triangle and it can be very effective. IMO, JC is an all-star PG in the making. Be patient and I'm sure that you won't be dissappointed. As for JWill, let him cut his teeth with the second unit where he can play against tired starters or players with less talent. Even with limited minutes, I have no worries that JWill take his fair share of shots and several others for that matter.
 

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DO WHAT???

Originally posted by blkwdw13
How about Trenton Hassel driving to the hoop last night, he looked really good to me that was before my wife made me turn off the game for one of her shows.
you weenie! LOL:laugh:
 
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