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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited by Moderator)
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...lsmain,1,1140853.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

There were the career-high 42 points. The career-high 12 assists. The praise from Crawford about Skiles building his confidence by giving him the green light.

More recently, the last two games have produced benchings for the entire fourth quarter. Before Thursday's practice came a talk in which Skiles challenged Crawford to attack the rim more and to help teammates more on defense.



"I thought we were on the same page when he first got here and I still feel like we're on the same page," Crawford said. "He expects a lot out of me. I try my best to give it to him."


{edited for coyright reasons}
 

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Jesus Shuttlesworth
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I was just about to post this off of Realgm
Anyway-
Interesting
I still think Skilez just hates Crawford
But thats just my opinion
 

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Crawford accepted this challenge. And any discussion of his inconsistency also must include the simple fact that he leads the Bulls with averages of 16.7 points and 5.5 assists.

"But it's beyond that," Skiles said. "I answer every question offensively. I don't understand this. I thought this was a basketball town. There's another end of the court too."

What Skiles seems to be saying is that whenever Crawford's name comes up, all anybody wants to talk about is his offense. But Skiles wants it made known that being the team's leading scorer isn't enough. As he said, "There's another end of the court, too."

"... you have to do what's necessary in all aspects of the game to stay out there. I know he understands that. Now he has to carry it out there."

Before Thursday's practice came a talk in which Skiles challenged Crawford to attack the rim more and to help teammates more on defense.

I swear KC Johnson reads this board everyday for his storyline. What was it that Crawford said when questioned about being benched down the stretch of the last two games...oh yeah, "ask the coach."

Well it sure sounds like Skiles has made it very clear...again...as to what he expects from Crawford: play defense including good help defense, and on offense attack the rim. Where have we all heard this before?
 

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Originally posted by <b>truebluefan</b>!

"There seems to be this pressure all the time here to play Jamal and pressure on Jamal to do certain things,"
This is why it would be best for Jamal to play somewhere else. Chicago media and fans are insane. The losing culture of Chicago sports seems to breed a kind of self-hatred that seems to be quite tasking over the longhaul to young players.

Skiles is right. What did Jamal do that earned him all of this scrutiny from everyone? It's not people pointing out what's good about Jamal. It's just a ton of criticism. You would expect that level of scrutiny of someone like Tracy Mcgrady who is one of the best players in the league...but for Jamal, a young player who hasn't even been a starter at his position for 82 games for the whole of his career....that's not right. Skiles is right that at some level that helps. But on another it creates an atmosphere in which it is very hard to develop players.

No one would say a word if Kendall Gill gets benched for a 4th quarter. But if it happens to Jamal it's a headline. And yet Gill has proven far more over the course of his career than has Jamal.

Same can be said of any of our players. Eddy and Jamal are the only players on our team that get this much flack and attention. People need to settle down. People say, "WE'VE BEEN WAITING 5 YEARS!!!" Cry me a ****ing river. It still doesn't mean that Jamal or Eddy are ready right now. Jamal's been here for 4 years. And at least 2 and a half of those years were wasted time where he was taught nothing and played little.

But the fact of the matter is, the scrutiny isn't going to die down. This is why Jamal needs to move on as soon as he can. This is a bad atmosphere for him. He probably doesn't realize it right now, but as soon as he goes somewhere else he's going to look back on these days as the dark days.
 

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Jamal has never shown that he can be a QUALITY player in this league, only a QUANTITY player. Quantity players put up stats and might sell some shoes, but they sure as hell don't win games.

What leads people to believe that Jamal will ever effect his team on a regular basis in a quality fashion? Quality players play defense, play with heart and bear responsibility to the team. So far, Jamal only plays offense (and inconsistently at that), shows no heart and bears responsibility only for himself.

I wanted to be on the Jamal bandwagon, I really did. He has so much unbelievable talent. But players like him litter the league because they just don't understand what it means to win, to be competitive, to desire greatness. He just doesn't have it. He got what he wanted -- he wanted to be the man. And he just isn't the man when it comes down to it.

It's not the media's fault or the fans' fault, it's Jamal's fault. We need to stop being enablers for him. He's had plenty of opportunities to put up or shut up (yet everytime he doesn't put up for some odd reason he just won't shut up).

He needs to take responsibility for his play NOW. It is not Skiles that took Jamal out of the game, it is Jamal that took Jamal out of the game, and until he realizes where the responsibility lies he will never become a quality player.
 

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Re: Re: KC Johnson: Skiles Demands best from Crawford

Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
This is why it would be best for Jamal to play somewhere else. Chicago media and fans are insane. The losing culture of Chicago sports seems to breed a kind of self-hatred that seems to be quite tasking over the longhaul to young players.

Skiles is right. What did Jamal do that earned him all of this scrutiny from everyone? It's not people pointing out what's good about Jamal. It's just a ton of criticism. You would expect that level of scrutiny of someone like Tracy Mcgrady who is one of the best players in the league...but for Jamal, a young player who hasn't even been a starter at his position for 82 games for the whole of his career....that's not right. Skiles is right that at some level that helps. But on another it creates an atmosphere in which it is very hard to develop players.
"There seems to be this pressure all the time here to play Jamal and pressure on Jamal to do certain things," Skiles said. "And I don't know what has warranted that, honestly. I think Jamal is a very good player. But to have lasting effect, things have to be earned.

Er..you may want to re-read Skiles' statement. How about looking at it this way: "There seems to be this pressure all the time here (from JC's most ardent supporters) to play Jamal and pressure (heaped on Crawford by fans with unrealistic expectations) on Jamal to do certain things."

It's possible (even likely) that the pressure Skiles is referring to comes from people like you who expect the coaching staff to keep him on the floor no matter what because he's going to be the next Reggie Miller, Gary Payton, Jason Kidd, etc...

And when Skiles says he doesn't know what warrants those demands and expectations and that "things have to be earned," you might want to consider the possibility that playing well every 5th game or so doesn't mean the coaching staff should grant Crawford entitlement minutes on the basis of a few spread out spectacular performances.

It ain't the media's fault, brotha. The pressure (on the coaching staff) to play him and unrealistic performance expectations emanate from other sources.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Originally posted by <b>Marcus13</b>!
I was just about to post this off of Realgm
Anyway-
Interesting
I still think Skilez just hates Crawford
But thats just my opinion
Interesting that you think that! He plays Jamal more minutes than anyone else, even with the recent benchings, Jamal has played a ton. Yeah, he must hate him.
 

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I don't see Jamal fans filling up message boards with 10 threads a day about Jamal.

I don't see Jamal fans writing articles in Chicago papers with headlines about Skiles benching him.

The majority of the attention Jamal gets is negative. So I don't see where you get that it's fans like me who are putting the pressure on Skiles.

Or is it just this board that is like that? I thought Kirk was the one who was getting all of the love from fans and managment? I thought Chandler was the guy we all love?

I never see people praising Jamal's game. It's a negative atmosphere. And it just intensifies the situation. Maybe if people weren't so quick to start threads like "oh here we go again, problems with Jamal" everytime Skiles sneezes, then Skiles wouldn't have to answer 20 questions about Jamal.

Does Crawford really have a lot of fans? He sure doesn't get much love around these parts. Even when he's playing his best ball.

I just don't see the positive attention that would accompany a star level player. But I do see the negative attention on that level. And I don't understand why? Skiles should be able to bench Crawford for however long he wants, and it should be a non-event. His few fans like myself can complain, but we aren't a majority obviously so the issue would die there. But it's the people who for whatever reason dislike Jamal because he isn't Michael Jordan, that won't let these things die. They are the one's who are more interested in Kirk or Jay being the best guard and having Skiles say that(as if it even matters on an 11 win team)...it's those people who are beating a dead horse and making the situation what it is. IMO.
 

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Originally posted by <b>ChiBullsFan</b>!


It's not the media's fault or the fans' fault, it's Jamal's fault. We need to stop being enablers for him. He's had plenty of opportunities to put up or shut up (yet everytime he doesn't put up for some odd reason he just won't shut up).

He needs to take responsibility for his play NOW. It is not Skiles that took Jamal out of the game, it is Jamal that took Jamal out of the game, and until he realizes where the responsibility lies he will never become a quality player.
:clap: Very well said. "Enablers" is a good term for some of people who continually make excuses for JC. It reminds of some of the parents I have to deal with at work. They believe everything their children say and turn their cheek and pretend as if the bad things their kids are doing are not really happening.

It's not about letting Jamal "do his thing". It's not about putting Jamal in a position to look good at the detriment of the team. I'm tired of hearing about his fragile confidence, he's a grown man for crying outloud. When he's not saying "ask the coach", he usually says all of the right things to the media. He comes off as an articulate person. I wish he would do what he says he needs to do. You're correct ChiBullsFan, it's time for him to put up and start producing on a consistent basis.
 

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Originally posted by <b>ChiBullsFan</b>!
Jamal has never shown that he can be a QUALITY player in this league, only a QUANTITY player. Quantity players put up stats and might sell some shoes, but they sure as hell don't win games.

What leads people to believe that Jamal will ever effect his team on a regular basis in a quality fashion? Quality players play defense, play with heart and bear responsibility to the team. So far, Jamal only plays offense (and inconsistently at that), shows no heart and bears responsibility only for himself.

I wanted to be on the Jamal bandwagon, I really did. He has so much unbelievable talent. But players like him litter the league because they just don't understand what it means to win, to be competitive, to desire greatness. He just doesn't have it. He got what he wanted -- he wanted to be the man. And he just isn't the man when it comes down to it.

It's not the media's fault or the fans' fault, it's Jamal's fault. We need to stop being enablers for him. He's had plenty of opportunities to put up or shut up (yet everytime he doesn't put up for some odd reason he just won't shut up).

He needs to take responsibility for his play NOW. It is not Skiles that took Jamal out of the game, it is Jamal that took Jamal out of the game, and until he realizes where the responsibility lies he will never become a quality player.
This is precisely the attitude Skiles was railing against. Because of your totally unrealistic expectations about Crawford, you cannot be happy with the contributions he makes as a flawed, but still productive player. That is the whole context of the Juwan Howard comparison.

It has always been my opinion that, except for a few exceptions on both sides, it is the Crawford detractors that, by far, have the highest expectations of Crawford.
 

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Re: Re: Re: KC Johnson: Skiles Demands best from Crawford

Originally posted by <b>C Blizzy</b>!


It ain't the media's fault, brotha. The pressure (on the coaching staff) to play him and unrealistic performance expectations emanate from other sources.


From the guy on the left.

You know, the one who traded away Jalen Rose and Donyell Marshall because Crawford was going to step up and become a consistent scorer?

Not that I'm totally dissing the trade, but it's been, at best, only 50% successful. JYD and AD have improved our defense and rebounding significantly. We're in games whereas before we were getting blown out.

But that was only one side of the equation. The other was the continued hope on the part of our brass that Crawford, Curry, and even Fizer might step up when called upon and show they could be consistent offensive threats. Just like when the brass relied on them coming into the season to be consistent offensive threats, the brass was wrong.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
 

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Originally posted by <b>NCBullsFan</b>!


This is precisely the attitude Skiles was railing against. Because of your totally unrealistic expectations about Crawford, you cannot be happy with the contributions he makes as a flawed, but still productive player. That is the whole context of the Juwan Howard comparison.
Hey. Look. EXACTLY. That's what I took out of it as well. When I watch Jamal I watch him as a work in progress. I know he's got flaws. I like to see what he does well at this point in his career more than harp on what he does wrong. He's not a perfect player. But the negative expectations come from the expectations that he should be.
 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: KC Johnson: Skiles Demands best from Crawford

Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!




From the guy on the left.

You know, the one who traded away Jalen Rose and Donyell Marshall because Crawford was going to step up and become a consistent scorer?

Not that I'm totally dissing the trade, but it's been, at best, only 50% successful. JYD and AD have improved our defense and rebounding significantly. We're in games whereas before we were getting blown out.

But that was only one side of the equation. The other was the continued hope on the part of our brass that Crawford, Curry, and even Fizer might step up when called upon and show they could be consistent offensive threats. Just like when the brass relied on them coming into the season to be consistent offensive threats, the brass was wrong.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
Any idea of what a trade with Toronto would have looked like if we replaced Rose with Crawford?
 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: KC Johnson: Skiles Demands best from Crawford

Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!

But that was only one side of the equation. The other was the continued hope on the part of our brass that Crawford, Curry, and even Fizer might step up when called upon and show they could be consistent offensive threats. Just like when the brass relied on them coming into the season to be consistent offensive threats, the brass was wrong.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
You think Pax traded Rose because he though jamal was gonna score 30 pts a night because thats not true at all. Im sure he though Jamal could get 17-22 pts a night within a team concept of offense and still get his assists.The problem has been weve had no post game at all and that was supposed to be the strength of the team.But without that its increased pressure on Crawford pressure he obviously was not ready to have.

Crawfors is not playing well but he was only supposed to be a compliment to a deadly inside game not the entire show .
 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: KC Johnson: Skiles Demands best from Crawford

Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!




From the guy on the left.

You know, the one who traded away Jalen Rose and Donyell Marshall because Crawford was going to step up and become a consistent scorer?

Not that I'm totally dissing the trade, but it's been, at best, only 50% successful. JYD and AD have improved our defense and rebounding significantly. We're in games whereas before we were getting blown out.

But that was only one side of the equation. The other was the continued hope on the part of our brass that Crawford, Curry, and even Fizer might step up when called upon and show they could be consistent offensive threats. Just like when the brass relied on them coming into the season to be consistent offensive threats, the brass was wrong.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
Mike, I never heard Pax say that Crawford was going to step up and become a consistent scorer after the trade. In addition to becoming a tougher, better defensive team, I think one of the purposes of the trade was to see what Jamal could do without Jalen around. Getting rid of Jalen was a way to find out if Jamal was ready to produce on a consistent basis, which is important to know going into his contract year. Aside from that, assuming the two C's pan out, by the time we're a serious contender I don't think Rose or Marshall would have been major components on the team. Also, by bringing tow solid pros like JYD and AD in, I think Pax was trying to surround Tyson and Eddy with hard working veteran big who play the game the right way. If they rub off on Tyson and Eddy in a positive way and if Pax is able to make a determination as to whether or not JC is going to be part of the future of this team, then the trade will have served it's purpose, IMO.
 

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I think this is awesome. Crawford said ask the coach, someone asked the coach, the coach says attack the basket and play help defense.

Either:

A)Jamal does, and I expect a 40 page thread about how Jamal really gets it and he's going to be the next Pete Maravich.

B)Jamal doesn't, and I expect a 40 page thread about how we should trade Jamal for the rights to the Hornets mascot with the nice dunks.

Either way, I'm happy for today. Jamal seems to be taking it exactly as he should, and for all this rumor of Skiles' doghouse he really doesn't seem to have any lasting grudges he just wants the best out of his players. Jamal has made huge strides under this guy, and I expect more.

Kudos to NCBullsFan for pointing out what's been on the tip of the tongue for so many for so long... the unrealistic expectations don't come from the Crawford fans who typically admit his faults while playing up his strengths, but from the Crawford haters who can find nothing that Jamal does well enough for them.
 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: KC Johnson: Skiles Demands best from Crawford

Originally posted by <b>rynobot</b>!

Any idea of what a trade with Toronto would have looked like if we replaced Rose with Crawford?
It would have been a lot different as Jamal's contract is a fraction of Jalen's deal. Matching salaries would have been difficult.
 

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What I think and I know some will disagree is that Jamal is not being benched for defense thats just the cover.

Hes being benched because hes our scorer and skiles expects 20ppg from jamal on 45% shooting or better no matter what .Do you really think weve lost these games because of jamals defense or lack of offense ?When Jamal has played well on offense weve won and we basically cannot afford for him to take offensive nights off.

If Jamal was getting his 20 ppg on 45% would be reading about hes not playing his best defense ?NO because Skiles could live with that because we need his points but hes out there accepting not getting his 20ppg by shooting 3's instead of finding other ways to get his points and its absolutely killing us.There is no reason but a lack of aggresivness on offense that Jamal is not getting his 20 ppg and thats why he is finding himself on the bench.

A coach will live with what you dont do well if you deliver on the things you do do well :) Crawford is a scorer who is not scoring and thats why he finds himself on the bench.
 

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"But it's beyond that," Skiles said. "I answer every question offensively. I don't understand this. I thought this was a basketball town. There's another end of the court too."

What a great quote and something to keep in mind on these very boards. I tend to just look at the offensive stats only sometimes....

What I can't stand about JC is his double-talk and deception. He says absolutely the "right things" like on the CLTV show. He was responding with yes' and I should be doing this more and was being all proper. but we get the same thing over and over on the court.

a call from MJ comes, "you need to drive to the basket more if the shots don't fall" "Ok Michael." next game. barely any FT attempts.

and another thing:

"definitely think that my stock has gone up," said Crawford, the Bulls' per-game leader in minutes (35.0), points (17.0) and assists (5.7) this season. "But that's for (the media) to tell

WHAT THE HECK IS THAT.
 

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Originally posted by <b>airety</b>!
I think this is awesome. Crawford said ask the coach, someone asked the coach, the coach says attack the basket and play help defense.

Either:

A)Jamal does, and I expect a 40 page thread about how Jamal really gets it and he's going to be the next Pete Maravich.

B)Jamal doesn't, and I expect a 40 page thread about how we should trade Jamal for the rights to the Hornets mascot with the nice dunks.

Either way, I'm happy for today. Jamal seems to be taking it exactly as he should, and for all this rumor of Skiles' doghouse he really doesn't seem to have any lasting grudges he just wants the best out of his players. Jamal has made huge strides under this guy, and I expect more.

Kudos to NCBullsFan for pointing out what's been on the tip of the tongue for so many for so long... the unrealistic expectations don't come from the Crawford fans who typically admit his faults while playing up his strengths, but from the Crawford haters who can find nothing that Jamal does well enough for them.
Can you imagine the Hornets mascot in a Bulls uniform? WOW! That would be a helluva coup.

Paxson should definitely look into that.

When's the last time you saw Benny the Bull throwing it down? Benny is getting old. It may be time to put him out to pasture. I know that won't earn me any fans...but there are some things that need to be said. Paxson can't let personal relations get in the way with what needs be done for the bulls future.

In a lot of ways, Champions are made starting with the mascot.
 
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