Keon Clark is now an UNRESTRICTED free agent.
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I would have thought this would have started some discussion.
It appears that the Raptors cannot afford to pay for him. The implications of this are that they would also be unwilling to participate in sign and trades because that would merely bring back the same salary.
I am assuming any amount over the exception puts them in Luxury tax territory so I would be highly skeptical about a sign and trade where the supposed bonus was draft picks. A draft pick is not worth $17M dollarrs or whatever the penalty is going to be for those over.
The Bulls still have their exception. They need help at the PF/C spots. If Krause gave him a spot to play, I could see him going to the Bulls.
It appears that the Raptors cannot afford to pay for him. The implications of this are that they would also be unwilling to participate in sign and trades because that would merely bring back the same salary.
I am assuming any amount over the exception puts them in Luxury tax territory so I would be highly skeptical about a sign and trade where the supposed bonus was draft picks. A draft pick is not worth $17M dollarrs or whatever the penalty is going to be for those over.
The Bulls still have their exception. They need help at the PF/C spots. If Krause gave him a spot to play, I could see him going to the Bulls.
discussion, eh?
well, I'll tell you what I think. Keon is definitly a solid player, who can handle the 4/5. He'd make a very very good addition to the Bulls. But, he'd end up a back-up to Curry and Chandler.
I don't think that's something he's after. I believe Keon is after a long term deal, starting spot, and wants to play 30+ minutes a game. that just can't happen on the Bulls -- not in the long run.
if all the Bulls have to offer is the mid-level exception, well, everyone's got that. so, if the money's all the same, it comes down to whether Keon wants to win or play alot. I don't think the Bulls can offer either one right now.
well, I'll tell you what I think. Keon is definitly a solid player, who can handle the 4/5. He'd make a very very good addition to the Bulls. But, he'd end up a back-up to Curry and Chandler.
I don't think that's something he's after. I believe Keon is after a long term deal, starting spot, and wants to play 30+ minutes a game. that just can't happen on the Bulls -- not in the long run.
if all the Bulls have to offer is the mid-level exception, well, everyone's got that. so, if the money's all the same, it comes down to whether Keon wants to win or play alot. I don't think the Bulls can offer either one right now.
I can see Keon signing with someone for only one year at the mid level extension and waiting until nest year when more teams have cap space. He is too good to sit on the bench and is a victim of the the tight market this year. There has been talk about poor work and practice habits on his part which might preclude the Bulls from being interested. They are building an esprit d'corp with their nucleus and are not about to mess it up for one player while their corp group is still young and impressionable.
I imagine the Knicks will pay for him. They've never been passive w/ money. Or, hell, maybe Portland. I don't see him being happy w/ a bench role.
A midlevel exemption is only available every other year. I don't know for sure, but I think Portland used theirs last year on Reuben Patterson and the Knicks used theirs on Howard Eisley.
Veteran exception is usable every other year, in the sense that you cannot use it two years in a row.
The Mid-Level you get every year if you are over the cap, or under the cap by an amount less than the amount of the exceptions you qualify for. .
The Mid-Level you get every year if you are over the cap, or under the cap by an amount less than the amount of the exceptions you qualify for. .
Oh. Well................I guess not then.
I just checked out Toronto's salary situation on HoopsHype and without Clark they have $48.5 mil committed this year and over $52 mil committed next year. With Davis, Hakeem, Jerome Williams and Montross inked for the next two years, they will either play major league hardball with Clark or just forget about him. Even in 2004 they already have $44 mil committed, This should be a trend over the next 2-3 years as teams pay for past signing mistakes and try to avoid the luxury tax.
I get the feeling that few signings will occur until training camp opens as players will not want to sign for less than their worth and teams reluctance to pay the luxury tax will clash.
An additional problem for Clark is that Toronto has his Bird rights which would take 3 years with another team for him to be elgible for those rights again.
Any team with money to offer this year is looking at some real bargains come the fall.
I get the feeling that few signings will occur until training camp opens as players will not want to sign for less than their worth and teams reluctance to pay the luxury tax will clash.
An additional problem for Clark is that Toronto has his Bird rights which would take 3 years with another team for him to be elgible for those rights again.
Any team with money to offer this year is looking at some real bargains come the fall.
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Song, Toronto is at $52.1M once they sign Jeffries even if they let Keon walk. (Hoopshype is not counting Keon when they add up the salaries.) The saddest part about the Toronto situation is that they might pay the luxury tax even if they let Keon walk.
I proposed a JYD, Dream, Jeffries, and Toronto's unprotected #1 in 2003 for ERob, Fizer, and Bagaric a few weeks ago, but nobody seemed too interested.
This trade would fill a lot of holes for us, and I think Toronto might be desperate enough to pull the trigger on it.
I proposed a JYD, Dream, Jeffries, and Toronto's unprotected #1 in 2003 for ERob, Fizer, and Bagaric a few weeks ago, but nobody seemed too interested.
This trade would fill a lot of holes for us, and I think Toronto might be desperate enough to pull the trigger on it.
If Toronto would go for that, I would be all for it. We would get the veteran backup center(Dream) , the defensive minded, rebounding pf (JW) and a good young wing defender in Jeffries. Good idea as usual NCBullsfan!
You are right on the button NCBullsFan. For the record, DB7 corrected me on RealGM saying that any team over the cap gets a midlevel exception each year, so I was dead wrong about NY, Portland or Orlando not being able to go after Clark, though Orlando wants Duncan next year.
The trade idea is interesting, but I need to give it some thought. It really does have some merit.
The trade idea is interesting, but I need to give it some thought. It really does have some merit.
First, I think if we brought in Clark, we'd be trading Fizer.
Just comparing Fizer and Clark, however, I'm not all that sure that Clark is THAT BIG an upgrade.
1. Sure, Clark's 6'11 and has played center, but he's also like 220lbs. He's a stick. Fizer's got 40 lbs on the dude. Hell, Tyson's got 15-20lbs on him.
2. And Clark is supposedly not a hard worker. I don't immediately have a link to support that (can anyone produce?) but I know I've read about his work ethic being questioned. Regardless of whether Fizer plays smart he seems to work hard.
3. Yes, Clark brings better shot blocking and rebounding, I agree. But is he worth twice as much as Fizer? I'm guessing he'll be wanting a contract starting in the $6M range... while Fizer makes in the $3M range.
Based on those facts, I think I'd rather keep Fizer. By the end of the year (or maybe next year), he can be getting 30mpg, with Chandler getting time at center (he did some last year, and if Clark can do it at 220, Chandler can do it at 240lbs).
I think a 3 man rotation of Curry, Chandler, and Fizer, while marginally worse as shot blocking and rebounding, is cheaper, better at offense, and not really worse at overall defense (as opposed to shot blocking- while I see that Clark is a good shot blocker, I don't see him as a good overall defender) than the rotation of Curry, Chandler, and Clark.
Additionally, while I like JYD and think he's what we need in a defensive SF, I think his contract is silly in the ERob sense of contracts. Actually, it's worse, because JYD's contract extends for a full TWO SEASONS past ERob's, which means that it will potentially interfere wit efforts to re-sign Curry, Chandler, Crawford, JWill, and/or Hassell. That's not a risk I want any part of. If JYD's contract expired at the same time as ERob's, I'd say ok to something like ERob, Fizer, and Best for JYD and Clark, but that's not the case; JYD's contract would be a threat.
The Bulls need to be very selective in getting players, not just because of their abilities on the court, but to make sure that their contract lengths and amounts fit in with the long-term scheme of the current team. Even if a player isn't overpaid, if his contract goes on for too many years, it could really tie our hands in bad ways. Likewise, I wouldn't mind taking on a guy who was somewhat overpaid (like Ervin "non Magic" Johnson), if his contract expired at a point before it would hurt us when it came time to re-sign our kids.
Just comparing Fizer and Clark, however, I'm not all that sure that Clark is THAT BIG an upgrade.
1. Sure, Clark's 6'11 and has played center, but he's also like 220lbs. He's a stick. Fizer's got 40 lbs on the dude. Hell, Tyson's got 15-20lbs on him.
2. And Clark is supposedly not a hard worker. I don't immediately have a link to support that (can anyone produce?) but I know I've read about his work ethic being questioned. Regardless of whether Fizer plays smart he seems to work hard.
3. Yes, Clark brings better shot blocking and rebounding, I agree. But is he worth twice as much as Fizer? I'm guessing he'll be wanting a contract starting in the $6M range... while Fizer makes in the $3M range.
Based on those facts, I think I'd rather keep Fizer. By the end of the year (or maybe next year), he can be getting 30mpg, with Chandler getting time at center (he did some last year, and if Clark can do it at 220, Chandler can do it at 240lbs).
I think a 3 man rotation of Curry, Chandler, and Fizer, while marginally worse as shot blocking and rebounding, is cheaper, better at offense, and not really worse at overall defense (as opposed to shot blocking- while I see that Clark is a good shot blocker, I don't see him as a good overall defender) than the rotation of Curry, Chandler, and Clark.
Additionally, while I like JYD and think he's what we need in a defensive SF, I think his contract is silly in the ERob sense of contracts. Actually, it's worse, because JYD's contract extends for a full TWO SEASONS past ERob's, which means that it will potentially interfere wit efforts to re-sign Curry, Chandler, Crawford, JWill, and/or Hassell. That's not a risk I want any part of. If JYD's contract expired at the same time as ERob's, I'd say ok to something like ERob, Fizer, and Best for JYD and Clark, but that's not the case; JYD's contract would be a threat.
The Bulls need to be very selective in getting players, not just because of their abilities on the court, but to make sure that their contract lengths and amounts fit in with the long-term scheme of the current team. Even if a player isn't overpaid, if his contract goes on for too many years, it could really tie our hands in bad ways. Likewise, I wouldn't mind taking on a guy who was somewhat overpaid (like Ervin "non Magic" Johnson), if his contract expired at a point before it would hurt us when it came time to re-sign our kids.
MDC, bro I can't believe you're making a 'fair' comparision between Keon and Marcus. Its not even close, and here's why:Originally posted by Mikedc
First, I think if we brought in Clark, we'd be trading Fizer.
Just comparing Fizer and Clark, however, I'm not all that sure that Clark is THAT BIG an upgrade.
1. Sure, Clark's 6'11 and has played center, but he's also like 220lbs. He's a stick. Fizer's got 40 lbs on the dude. Hell, Tyson's got 15-20lbs on him.
2. And Clark is supposedly not a hard worker. I don't immediately have a link to support that (can anyone produce?) but I know I've read about his work ethic being questioned. Regardless of whether Fizer plays smart he seems to work hard.
3. Yes, Clark brings better shot blocking and rebounding, I agree. But is he worth twice as much as Fizer? I'm guessing he'll be wanting a contract starting in the $6M range... while Fizer makes in the $3M range.
Based on those facts, I think I'd rather keep Fizer. By the end of the year (or maybe next year), he can be getting 30mpg, with Chandler getting time at center (he did some last year, and if Clark can do it at 220, Chandler can do it at 240lbs).
I think a 3 man rotation of Curry, Chandler, and Fizer, while marginally worse as shot blocking and rebounding, is cheaper, better at offense, and not really worse at overall defense (as opposed to shot blocking- while I see that Clark is a good shot blocker, I don't see him as a good overall defender) than the rotation of Curry, Chandler, and Clark.
Additionally, while I like JYD and think he's what we need in a defensive SF, I think his contract is silly in the ERob sense of contracts. Actually, it's worse, because JYD's contract extends for a full TWO SEASONS past ERob's, which means that it will potentially interfere wit efforts to re-sign Curry, Chandler, Crawford, JWill, and/or Hassell. That's not a risk I want any part of. If JYD's contract expired at the same time as ERob's, I'd say ok to something like ERob, Fizer, and Best for JYD and Clark, but that's not the case; JYD's contract would be a threat.
The Bulls need to be very selective in getting players, not just because of their abilities on the court, but to make sure that their contract lengths and amounts fit in with the long-term scheme of the current team. Even if a player isn't overpaid, if his contract goes on for too many years, it could really tie our hands in bad ways. Likewise, I wouldn't mind taking on a guy who was somewhat overpaid (like Ervin "non Magic" Johnson), if his contract expired at a point before it would hurt us when it came time to re-sign our kids.
1. Size - Marcus is listed 6'9" though many have speculated he is closer to 6'7". A wide body yes.. but a poor rebounder and has slow feet to defend. 26mpg: 5.6rpg, .6spg, .3bpg.
Keon is 6'11", long and athletic. 27 mpg: 7.2rpg, .72spg, 1.5bpg
Yes Marcus is wide, but he doesn't use it to his advantage. What would you prefer.. a 6'7" power forward w/ little hops and slow feet or a 6'11" long athletic PF who can get up and down the court?
2. Rebounding - Keon is clearly better, most of Marcus' rebounds (from the many games I've seen) aren't from boxing out, but rather from bounces toward him. The numbers don't lie. And someone tell Fred Hoiberg to stop taking Fizer's rebounds.
3. Defense - Keon is the better defender, hands down. Though many will point to his blocks (15th in the NBA on limited minutes), he has a knack for the game and can defend the 3, 4 or 5. Last I checked, Marcus really couldn't defend anyone. WHEN is the last time you saw Marcus block a shot? Exactly.
4. Work ethic - both of these guys aren't the best here. Read some old articles on Hoopsworld.com from Chris Marrs and that will give you some insight on Fizer's work ethic. Its not great. Keon has been dogged by negative press, but much of it is undeserved (in my mind). Keon has produced, and that is enough for me.
5. Offense - close, but I'd call it a wash. Fizer may be a slightly better post-up player, but Clark has the better jumper and is more dangerous putting the ball on teh floor and finishing on the break.
6. Contract - the veteran exemption of 4.5 million is available every other season, provided a team is under the cap. We could sign Keon for 3 years at the vet exemption and have money free in 3 seasons when Curry and Chandler are asking for cheddar. I don't see this as a problem. Fizer makes 3 mil, and I would ship his *ss for a draft pick or a veteran 3.
I have seen 20-25 raptors games the past couple of seasons (mainly on TNT) and Keon has always impressed me. The playoffs this past seasonwas just icing on the cake. He was, in my opinion, the best player on the Carter-less Raptors and at times the most dominant player in the series.
Fizer over Clark? I don't think so. Peace...
VD
ok, I agree, obviously, that at 6'7", Fizer is a bit too short, but at 220lb, I still think Keon is a bit too skinny for my taste. Bigger centers will continue to push him around. I have the feeling that Fizer will improve his game. I do disagree with the assessment that he's got slow feet or is slow in general. Actually, I think he's quicker than most PFs and some bigger SFs. The problem is that heretofore, he seems to not know how to utilize his body. I'm guessing he'll get that figured out. Clark, on the other hand, isn't gonna get any bigger, I don't think.Originally posted by Vin Diesel
MDC, bro I can't believe you're making a 'fair' comparision between Keon and Marcus. Its not even close, and here's why:
1. Size - Marcus is listed 6'9" though many have speculated he is closer to 6'7". A wide body yes.. but a poor rebounder and has slow feet to defend. 26mpg: 5.6rpg, .6spg, .3bpg.
Keon is 6'11", long and athletic. 27 mpg: 7.2rpg, .72spg, 1.5bpg
Yes Marcus is wide, but he doesn't use it to his advantage. What would you prefer.. a 6'7" power forward w/ little hops and slow feet or a 6'11" long athletic PF who can get up and down the court?
All in all, I'd give the edge to Clark, but I just don't think it's a very big edge.
The numbers don't lie, but they don't suggest a huge advantage, either. Clark gained an extra 1.6 rebounds in an extra minute a game. That's an improvement, but Fizer also gave us an extra point a game in one fewer minute.2. Rebounding - Keon is clearly better, most of Marcus' rebounds (from the many games I've seen) aren't from boxing out, but rather from bounces toward him. The numbers don't lie. And someone tell Fred Hoiberg to stop taking Fizer's rebounds.
I tend to agree, but I'm not sold on Clark guarding 5s. You've watched him more than me, but I don't recall him being all that great, and any bigger guy will push his skinny *** out of the way.3. Defense - Keon is the better defender, hands down. Though many will point to his blocks (15th in the NBA on limited minutes), he has a knack for the game and can defend the 3, 4 or 5. Last I checked, Marcus really couldn't defend anyone. WHEN is the last time you saw Marcus block a shot? Exactly.
k4. Work ethic - both of these guys aren't the best here. Read some old articles on Hoopsworld.com from Chris Marrs and that will give you some insight on Fizer's work ethic. Its not great. Keon has been dogged by negative press, but much of it is undeserved (in my mind). Keon has produced, and that is enough for me.
I got to disagree. Fizer can hit a J. He doesn't have the 3 point range he thinks he does, but he's got pretty good range.5. Offense - close, but I'd call it a wash. Fizer may be a slightly better post-up player, but Clark has the better jumper and is more dangerous putting the ball on teh floor and finishing on the break.
OK, for me that's really the breaking point. I don't really disagree that Clark is a better player overall than Fizer. I just don't think he's THAT MUCH better. I expect Clark to want a $6-8M deal. If he's willing to come here for a 3-5 year stay for the mid-level exception, then hey, I'm all for him. I just think some size-starved team, like the Knicks, will offer him more than that.6. Contract - the veteran exemption of 4.5 million is available every other season, provided a team is under the cap. We could sign Keon for 3 years at the vet exemption and have money free in 3 seasons when Curry and Chandler are asking for cheddar. I don't see this as a problem. Fizer makes 3 mil, and I would ship his *ss for a draft pick or a veteran 3.
And at THAT kind of price, I don't think he's enough of an upgrade to justify the money we'd be spending.
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