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What do you think of Kobe's D?

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I guess nothing special athletically compare to the elite shooting guard/perimeters players such as Lebron, VC, Wade, etc.

Still these guys are the elite of the elite and athleticism for Kobe, a guy whose game I personally don't like at all, is certainly still in the top notch of the most athletic position in the league
 
Minstrel said:
Weren't you the one who said "there's nothing to argue about"? ;)
You said he still "special" athletically, how do you define "special"?

Cuz Kobe lost it man, hes not as quick as he used to be, his vert is down, and doesn't have the same hangtime and bodycontrol he once had.
 
Air Fly said:
You said he still "special" athletically, how do you define "special"?
One of the best athletes in the game. He certainly hasn't lost it.
 
Minstrel said:
One of the best athletes in the game. He certainly hasn't lost it.
Perhaps, but he isn't the same player he once was "athletically".

That was my point regarding my first post.
 
I am a notorius Kobe disser, but the guy is still special athletically. You can't take that away from him right now. He has lost a step and has a harder time getting into the lane, hence all the jumpers he takes now.


Kobe is pretty much a shooter now. He has become an excellent shooter when he takes good looks. I would put my money on him at the three point contest. He can stroke it with the best of them now. He has made himself into a midrange-long distance shooter who gets to the rim with less frequency. He is more of a midrange shooter. He is practically unguardable from midrange.
 
compsciguy78 said:
Kobe is pretty much a shooter now. He has become an excellent shooter when he takes good looks. I would put my money on him at the three point contest. He can stroke it with the best of them now. He has made himself into a midrange-long distance shooter who gets to the rim with less frequency. He is more of a midrange shooter. He is practically unguardable from midrange.
I agree.

Funny how he and McGrady continue to mirror each other. Well, minus the back injury, unfortunately for McGrady.
 
sherako said:
He and Tracy's playing styles are like night and day.
No, they're really quite similar, except that McGrady passes the ball a bit more. Both have morphed from players who consistently attacked the hoop into players with exceptional mid-range games, good strokes from outside when open and who are able to get to the hoop when necessary and finish with circus shots if necessary. Both are also very good passers who key the offense and good rebounders for their position.
 
Minstrel said:
No, they're really quite similar, except that McGrady passes the ball a bit more. Both have morphed from players who consistently attacked the hoop into players with exceptional mid-range games, good strokes from outside when open and who are able to get to the hoop when necessary and finish with circus shots if necessary. Both are also very good passers who key the offense and good rebounders for their position.
Right. But going from these generalities to more specific terms, they are very different players. From how they get their shots/sweet spots on the court, to where they are most effective playing defense.
 
sherako said:
Right. But going from these generalities to more specific terms, they are very different players. From how they get their shots/sweet spots on the court, to where they are most effective playing defense.
I wouldn't call how they get to their sweet spots on the court a difference of "night and day." No two players are identical clones, but McGrady and Bryant have largely mirrored each other in terms of how they play and how they've developed. Within that, they have some visual differences.

I will agree that they have significantly different defensive styles. I was referring to their offensive games, as the post I was replying to was about how Bryant plays offense.
 
I wouldn't call how they get to their sweet spots on the court a difference of "night and day."
Indeed.

No two players are identical clones, but McGrady and Bryant have largely mirrored each other in terms of how they play and how they've developed.
It isn't so. Right now, Kobe is keying the Lakers from the highpost on either side of the free-throw line. With Tracy, his staple still, is that high-screen and roll or a pullup jumpshot. Even more so, with his transition from top of the key drives to post-fadeaways, Kobe remains among the league leaders in free throws. Tracy's attempts have nearly halved since coming to Houston.

Within that, they have some visual differences.
Indeed.

I will agree that they have significantly different defensive styles.
Most definitely. Can you expound on that a bit more, that topic really hasn't been scratched even among the trillions of Kobe/Tracy topics that have been made over the years.
 
sherako said:
It isn't so. Right now, Kobe is keying the Lakers from the highpost on either side of the free-throw line. With Tracy, his staple still, is that high-screen and roll or a pullup jumpshot. Even more so, with his transition from top of the key drives to post-fadeaways, Kobe remains among the league leaders in free throws. Tracy's attempts have nearly halved since coming to Houston.
I agree that where they initiate the offense from is different, but they both rely on dribble-pentration to set up their mid-range shot and drive-and-dish to set up teammates. Bryant still takes it to the hoop more than McGrady, and McGrady passes the ball more at the terminus of his drives. A lot of that, though, is due to the personnel they have around them. If Kobe played with Yao Ming, I think he'd play pick-and-roll a lot more, because that's to Yao's strengths. The high post is the pretty classic spot for a creating wing to attack from; LeBron James attacks from there as well, and McGrady did in Orlando.

Most definitely. Can you expound on that a bit more, that topic really hasn't been scratched even among the trillions of Kobe/Tracy topics that have been made over the years.
Kobe's defense, when he's putting a lot of effort into it, is more active, akin in style to Gary Payton's. He plays tight, fights and tries to disrupt the handle and get steals. McGrady's defense is more akin in style to Pippen's man defense, which is to smother guys' shots and passing angles with his length. He drove Nowitzki crazy in last year's playoffs because with McGrady's length, Nowitzki had a tough time getting his shot off, which is usually effortless for him. McGrady glides and smothers, Kobe fights and disrupts. Kobe is better on smaller, quicker ball-handlers, while McGrady is better against bigger guys who like to post up, shoot over or initiate the offense with passes.

I'd rather defend Wade or Marbury with Kobe, and I'd rather defend LeBron or Pierce with McGrady.
 
Minstrel said:
I agree that where they initiate the offense from is different, but they both rely on dribble-pentration to set up their mid-range shot and drive-and-dish to set up teammates. Bryant still takes it to the hoop more than McGrady, and McGrady passes the ball more at the terminus of his drives. A lot of that, though, is due to the personnel they have around them. If Kobe played with Yao Ming, I think he'd play pick-and-roll a lot more, because that's to Yao's strengths. The high post is the pretty classic spot for a creating wing to attack from; LeBron James attacks from there as well, and McGrady did in Orlando.



Kobe's defense, when he's putting a lot of effort into it, is more active, akin in style to Gary Payton's. He plays tight, fights and tries to disrupt the handle and get steals. McGrady's defense is more akin in style to Pippen's man defense, which is to smother guys' shots and passing angles with his length. He drove Nowitzki crazy in last year's playoffs because with McGrady's length, Nowitzki had a tough time getting his shot off, which is usually effortless for him. McGrady glides and smothers, Kobe fights and disrupts. Kobe is better on smaller, quicker ball-handlers, while McGrady is better against bigger guys who like to post up, shoot over or initiate the offense with passes.

I'd rather defend Wade or Marbury with Kobe, and I'd rather defend LeBron or Pierce with McGrady.

very well said, repped.
 
Minstrel said:
I think you're vastly overrating Kobe Bryant's defense.

He never plays like "the best defender in the league." I really like Bryant and I don't think that's even remotely true.
There are more nights where he'll completely shut down a great scorer (which takes a best defender in the league calibur player) than there are nights where he plays poor defense. I think you're underrating him on the defensive end.
 
This has turned into a great Kobe Mcgrady thread, and I must say I give you guys props for appreciating the talents than wasting time arguing on bias differences.


This is truly the way the discussions should've always been talked about. Put both of these guys on the same team with some time to gel, how good do you think they could be?
 
A lot of that, though, is due to the personnel they have around them. If Kobe played with Yao Ming, I think he'd play pick-and-roll a lot more, because that's to Yao's strengths.
Not true. If Kobe played with Yao there'd be a lot of handoffs around the rim resulting in easy dunks for Yao, circa Shaquille 00-04. He knows how to utilize bigmen better.

The high post is the pretty classic spot for a creating wing to attack from; LeBron James attacks from there as well, and McGrady did in Orlando.
They attack from there but not in the same way. Tracy calls for a screen immediately unless he thinks he can get past his first man. Kobe, especially these days, gets his shots based off of the positioning of himself and the defender. Gone are the days when he'd blow by a player and dunk on two more. The rhythm is; catch ball with back to basket, turn & face, simple lead-step with the right foot, then go from there. Quick moves resulting in the quick release. Plus, when he drives he is usually looking to get to the rim and get fouled, when Tracy drives he is usually looking to pitch to the corner since his vision around the rim is poor [he has no choice to pitch it out], unless the path is clear for him to finish.

Kobe's defense, when he's putting a lot of effort into it, is more active, akin in style to Gary Payton's. He plays tight, fights and tries to disrupt the handle and get steals. McGrady's defense is more akin in style to Pippen's man defense, which is to smother guys' shots and passing angles with his length. He drove Nowitzki crazy in last year's playoffs because with McGrady's length, Nowitzki had a tough time getting his shot off, which is usually effortless for him. McGrady glides and smothers, Kobe fights and disrupts. Kobe is better on smaller, quicker ball-handlers, while McGrady is better against bigger guys who like to post up, shoot over or initiate the offense with passes.

I'd rather defend Wade or Marbury with Kobe, and I'd rather defend LeBron or Pierce with McGrady.
Some of this was good, but there were a lot of crucial details left out
 
sherako said:
Not true. If Kobe played with Yao there'd be a lot of handoffs around the rim resulting in easy dunks for Yao, circa Shaquille 00-04. He knows how to utilize bigmen better.
Incorrect. Yao and O'Neal are very different types of big men, they can't be used the same way. Shaq was more physically dominant, capable of getting to the hoop at will. Yao doesn't have that ability, he's much more effective shooting over his defender from the post and hitting mid-range jumpers. One size doesn't fit all. McGrady gets Yao plenty of dunks when Yao is open at the hoop, but by and large that isn't Yao's game, so whichever wing plays with him would need to either ignore him, use him poorly or play to his strengths. I believe Kobe is smart enough to play to Yao's strengths, and would play with him the way McGrady does.

They attack from there but not in the same way. Tracy calls for a screen immediately unless he thinks he can get past his first man. Kobe, especially these days, gets his shots based off of the positioning of himself and the defender. Gone are the days when he'd blow by a player and dunk on two more. The rhythm is; catch ball with back to basket, turn & face, simple lead-step with the right foot, then go from there. Quick moves resulting in the quick release. Plus, when he drives he is usually looking to get to the rim and get fouled, when Tracy drives he is usually looking to pitch to the corner since his vision around the rim is poor [he has no choice to pitch it out], unless the path is clear for him to finish.
McGrady's vision around the rim isn't poor at all, and he rarely pitches to the corner. Most of his passes from near the hoop set a teammate up for a mid-range jumper, usually in the middle of the court. Also, I didn't say that McGrady currently attacks from the wing the way Kobe does, I said McGrady did in Orlando. In Orlando, McGrady finished at the rim just as much as Bryant, at least until his final year there when his back started causing him more problems.

Some of this was good, but there were a lot of crucial details left out
In your opinion, sure. I disagree that crucial details were left out. Small details were left out, because I don't have the time to write five page essays for my posts.
 
Minstrel said:
Incorrect. Yao and O'Neal are very different types of big men, they can't be used the same way.
Good thing I never wrote that.

Shaq was more physically dominant, capable of getting to the hoop at will. Yao doesn't have that ability, he's much more effective shooting over his defender from the post and hitting mid-range jumpers. One size doesn't fit all. McGrady gets Yao plenty of dunks when Yao is open at the hoop, but by and large that isn't Yao's game, so whichever wing plays with him would need to either ignore him, use him poorly or play to his strengths. I believe Kobe is smart enough to play to Yao's strengths, and would play with him the way McGrady does.
I know how Yao plays in comparison to Shaquille. It's been well documented by casual fans. But one would be foolhardy to deny that Kobe pitching off to Yao equals a lot more slams for Yao.

McGrady's vision around the rim isn't poor at all, and he rarely pitches to the corner. Most of his passes from near the hoop set a teammate up for a mid-range jumper, usually in the middle of the court. Also, I didn't say that McGrady currently attacks from the wing the way Kobe does, I said McGrady did in Orlando. In Orlando, McGrady finished at the rim just as much as Bryant, at least until his final year there when his back started causing him more problems.
Maybe when Juwan Howard is in they go to the midrange plays, but Alston, Head and Wesley aren't creating shots for themselves. Sit in the corner, and if their man helps off of the Tracy screen/roll action, all they have to do is catch and shoot.
 
sherako said:
I know how Yao plays in comparison to Shaquille.
Sorry, it didn't seem like you did.

But one would be foolhardy to deny that Kobe pitching off to Yao equals a lot more slams for Yao.
Wow, you underlined "foolhardy." That must make it more true.

If Yao were often in position for hand-offs to dunk the ball, you'd have a point. Since he's not often in such position, we'll have to return to Bryant needing to play differently with Yao than he did with Shaq.

Maybe when Juwan Howard is in they go to the midrange plays, but Alston, Head and Wesley aren't creating shots for themselves.
No, they aren't, but they also don't shoot exclusively from the corner. They take perimeter shots and mid-range jumpers from McGrady passes from many angles. Yao, Howard and Swift also take mid-range shots and closer attempts off of McGrady passes.
 
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