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Discussion Starter #1
I just finished reading the locked thread on Mercer where BCH and KC were in a little "discussion."

BCH,
I am not sure whether or not Krause did/did not want rose. But the articles you mentioned do not explicitly back up your position.

"And, no, operations chief Jerry Krause also was not in favor of the deal in the first place. Pacers president Donnie Walsh wanted to do the deal that included Charles Oakley instead of Ron Mercer."

In this statement, it is unclear whether Krause was against the deal becaue of Rose or because of the Oakley/Mercer factor.

You mentioned another statement that Walsh wanted to get the deal done quickly. Again, it is unclear whether it was because Krause didn't want rose or the Oakley/Mercer factor.

It seemed at the time of the trade the big factor holding up the deal was the Oak/Mercer scenario. I dont remember reading about Krause not wanting Rose.


On Pippen.... I think the sign-and-trade was done to help the bulls. This relates to the thread about loyalty, etc.

Granted, pippen was underpaid, etc, etc... But in order to try to salvage some of that strained relationship, the bulls did a sign-and-trade to the team of pippens choice in order to provide him with the best deal possible. The bulls got nothing directly in return. But in directly they may have gotten some good PR.

So i believe the pippen trade was for the betterment of the Bulls.
 

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Pippen for Roy Rogers?

Somehow I think the Bulls could of gotten better.

Trading one of the 50 greatest players of all time for toilet scum is not the answer. Pippen had great value to a contending team, and it was rumored L.A. was offering Elden Campbell and Eddie Jones. I have to believe that rumor had truth to it, when you consider that Elden Campbell and Eddie Jones were traded for Glen Rice.

Then Krause brings out a fifty piece orchestra and parade floats to try and convince Jones to sign here as a free agent a few years later.

I like some of the younger players here, and it looks as if the Bulls have a good future. But in no way do I think Krause has done a good job or followed some plan. He tried to do all sorts of free agent signings, trades, etc that failed miserably. He hand picked some idiot who fished with him to come coach the team. Thank God that guy is gone. If he didn't resign Krause never would of fired him.

The system is set up so if you fail long enough you will succeed (excluding the hopeless Clippers). The Bulls are showing progress because of loads of high draft picks acquired from making lousy decisions. Fortunately some (not all) of his draft picks look to have great NBA potential.

One thing people must remember before getting too excited is that we still tied for the worst record in the league last year. There are no guarantees we are going to be significantly better. These are young players, with more young players added. Hopefully they will turn out great. But they are not yet established, and there are no guaranrtees any of them will become star players.

I hope we have turned the corner. But at the same time I am not going to rush off and bet all my money on this team developing.

Show me on the court first.
 

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Regarding Pippen, the Bulls sent him to the team of HIS choice, not theirs. This was the true favor. They likely could have tried to maximimize his return value, but they, at that time, wanted to clear capspace. So Pippen was told, in effect, pick your team and we will accommodate you. That is the simple truth.

Pippen got his max contract. The Bulls got their capspace. Yet Pippen remained bitter that 1) he, against the Bulls advice, signed a long term below market contract and 2) that the Bulls accommodated him in a sign and trade which in effect they didn't have to. Please.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks, real fan.

Pippen was an UNRESTRICTED FA. He could go anywhere he wanted. Who knows if pippen wanted to go the lakers.

Pippen had to AGREE to the sign-and-trade. The Bulls wanted to dump cap space. They didn't have to do anything for pippen seeing that they pretty much got nothing in return.
 

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Originally posted by Dr. Kerr
Thanks, real fan.

Pippen was an UNRESTRICTED FA. He could go anywhere he wanted. Who knows if pippen wanted to go the lakers.

Pippen had to AGREE to the sign-and-trade. The Bulls wanted to dump cap space. They didn't have to do anything for pippen seeing that they pretty much got nothing in return.
Yes, you are correct and that makes the point stronger. The Bulls didn't have to do anything for Pippen and yet they did - Pippen got his $$$.
 

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Houston had enough cap space to sign Pippen on their own and needed to dump no one. Because of cap rules for teams that have the rights to players, the Pippen could sign Pippen for millions more than Houston could and Krause did Pippen a multi million dollar favor for which he was totally ungrateful. Pippen was not coming back period and was an unrestricted free agent.
As for getting more in the deal, no way on many grounds. If we got any real talent, we would have won more games and our draft picks would have been that much worse. No Brand, no Curry, no Chandler, no Jay Williams. It is not easy to be as bad as we were as long as we were, but that is what it took to assemble our roster of potential future stars. This may sound funny, but it took a lot of work and planning to stay as bad we were as long we were to get the players needed for the ride we are about to experience.
 

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Just to throw my two cents into the "did Krause want Rose" debate, I clearly remember reading an article that said Krause was hesistating because there were question marks about Rose.

Now, I don't know exactly what the question marks were. Jalen had acquired a reputation in some circles as being a complainer, lazy, and selfish. Dan Issel didn't like him, and neither did Larry Brown. He blossomed under Larry Bird, however, though he did seem to run afoul of Isiah Thomas. Krause allegedly consulted with Fred Hoiberg, who said that Jalen was a model teammate. The same article I read says that Reinsdorf and everyone in the organization were pushing for the deal to go through, and that Krause was the last guy to give the go-ahead.

Now, thirdhand accounts in newspapers are hardly the final authority in determining fact, but this account is consistent with the course of events at that time. The Artest-Miller-Oakely for Rose-Best-filler trade had been floated in the Tribune and on ESPNInsider for weeks before it actually happened. I doubt that Donnie Walsh was holding out for Ron Mercer, so I find it very plausible that Krause was either (a) unsure about Jalen Rose the player, or (b) unsure about Jalen Rose's contract. I think both are likely.
 

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Krause could have held up the deal for dozens of reasons and none of which could have anything to do with his opinion of Rose.

A few possibilties:
Krause prefered a deal with another team (Finley?)
Krause was trying to get another player in the deal (Harrington?)
etc.
 

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If Krause had a higher opinion of Rose, then he wouldn't have held out for a different player, so the issue is still Jalen.
 

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Originally posted by Sep
If Krause had a higher opinion of Rose, then he wouldn't have held out for a different player, so the issue is still Jalen.
:no: Tough to argue with logic like that.
 

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You guys are wrong...

Krause held out on the deal because he wanted to unload Mercer's salary. Oak became a free agent at the end of the season. Krause always liked Rose.
 

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You're right Davey

The most logical reason for the delay was Mercer. We all have heard that JK loses deals sometimes because he is always trying to get the most he can. In this instance his holding out resulted in a home run. Please note than Indy is trying to move Mercer now
 
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