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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Biggest Mistake

Every year, we have way too many young, unproven guys on the team. This has Krause's biggest mistake in the rebuilding.

The worst was the year we drafted Brand, Artest, Little Jake, El-Amin, Guyton and traded for Drew.

Let's look at Bags. He was drafted at a very young age. I personally don't think he will be an average NBA backup, but I could be wrong. If he gets a little better, there is a very good chance he will just sign with another team rather than remain Curry's backup.

Solution
Krause needs to do a house cleaning over the next 12 months. Keep the gems (Chandler, Curry, and a few others) and purge the team of much of the rest. Even if the trade does not bring back even close to the same talent. WE NEED SOME VETS.

How it could\should work out
Bags - OUT
Fizer & JCraw - Better show a lot more soon (esp if Baxter and JWill emerge)
Mason & Hassel - May the best man win[
 

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From what I've seen so far. You've got things a big wrong. Krauses biggest mistake was drafting Jay Williams at 2 instead of trading with the Clippers for their two first rounders and Lamar Odom. It is now clear that Jay WIlliams will not amount to anything as an NBA player. We can expect Mason to start over JC, AND JWill and we can expect Hassell to play over everyone else at the 2. Baxter will start over Chandler, and Curry will hold his own over Bags.

Or, we could say, hey, it's only summer league, and leave it at that.
 

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Biggest mistake: Drafting Fizer!!!!!

No question that Fizer is good player but not
with the Bulls. We could have had Mike Miller
and been much better off.
 

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Krauses biggest mistake was drafting Jay Williams at 2 instead of trading with the Clippers for their two first rounders and Lamar Odom. It is now clear that Jay WIlliams will not amount to anything as an NBA player. We can expect Mason to start over JC, AND JWill and we can expect Hassell to play over
That's the craziest statement I've heard in a long time. How do figure that you can exaluate players from 4 summer league games, escpecially when these games aren't really taken seriously by most of these guys. Why would we want Odom (excellent player, but one puff away from a 1-year suspension) Wilcox ( a pf that we don't need) and Ely (another pf we don't need). Theoretically, we could have had the Clips pick Butler for us, but the Cavs tried that and it didn't work. Barring career-ending injuries, JWill will be an excellent pg if not an all-star, JC will start over Mason easily, end of story.
 

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biggest mistake? When the new CBA came into affect he still thought money would get FA to move. But he corrected that in the draft.
 

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Jerry K's gaffes post-dynasty (too many to name), but here are a few, in order of importance:

1. Letting MJ leave organization, while allowing Cartwright, Myers, BJ Armstrong, even Pax to take on roles in the organization; this was an EGO decision by the Jerry's... to try to build their own dynasty without a certain number 23.

2. Trading Pip for scraps (Roy Rogers and a 2nd round pick); Pip was screwed by the Bulls for a long time and this was the culmination of it

3. Hiring Tim Floyd, JK's fishing buddy; he grew tired of losing, didn't earn the respect of younger players (like Artest and Crawford), and stubbornly stuck to his veterans

4. Drafting Brand over Francis; Krause went with the safe pick (and we all know Krause loves big men), but Francis, Davis, and Miller were the franchise players in that draft

5. Attempting to sign 2 full-boat free agents; unless you were happy with Brad Miller and Ron Mercer.. this plan failed miserably

6. 2000 draft - taking Fizer and Crawford; admittedly that year's draft was one of the worse in years.. but we should have come out with O'Neal (trade from Portland) or Darius Miles, it didn't happen though

There are many more, but let's hope Jerry K doesn't fumble the plan this time around. JK is a good scout and evaluator of talent, but his days as an effective 21st century GM are long gone. Here's hoping the young kids can play some winning and exciting bball, so the perception around the NBA about the Bulls can change.

VD
 

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I think that time will show that the biggest re-building mistake was taking J-Will at #2, versus the other players available.

But that won't be Jerry's biggest mistake.

His biggest mistake was thirty years ago.

It cost the Bulls between 1 and 4 championships.

To provide a quick history lesson.

The Bulls in the early 70's had a team consistently winning 50+ games. High scoring forwards who rebounded in Chet Walker and Bob Love, a rebounding defensive center in Tom Boerwinkle, and Jerry Sloan and Norm Van Lier at guard. The biggest ***** in that team, besides no bench, was Van Lier, who was not a scorer, and did not possess a reliable outside shot.

Coach Dick Motta wanted Tiny Archibald in the 1970 draft. The same Tiny Archibald who two years later averaged 35 ppg and 12 apg. For his first 8 years, Tiny averaged 24 + ppg while shooting nearly 50 % from the field.

Bulls management deferred to scout Jerry Krause to make the final call with the first round pick. Krause did not go with Motta's strong recommendation. Whoever the hell piece of crap they took, the Bulls would have definately won the 1975 championship, when they had eventual champion Golden State down 3 games to 2 in the Western finals, and would probably have won at least one more championship between 1972 (yes, I remember the Lakers and Bucks well) and 1974. The Bulls, with Nate Archibald, could have definately beaten the '73 Knicks and probably the '74 Celtics. And they would have given the '72 Lakers a hell of a battle.

The result of that pick by Jerry was him having to leave the Bulls organization and become a baseball scout and ultimately a scout with the Lakers.

Anyway, I think that rather than go against the entire Bulls organization this time around, Jerry may have gone with the flow.

But no matter how many times KC Johnson and Mike McGraw call JWill a point guard, I still don't see it. I didn't see it at Duke. And I don't see it now. JWill is best setting up his own shot. Whether he learns to be a team player we will see.

I also never thought JWill effectively shut down his man (if a decent player) in college. I also don't expect him to lock down anyone in the pros. He is as big and strong and quick as he ever will be.
 

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Gotta disagree with you on a couple of your points, VD:

1. Letting MJ leave organization... We'll probably never know what was offered and what wasn't. But the fact is the Bulls couldn't in all fairness offer Jordan the only position he truly wanted. Nor should Jordan have had to settle for a subordinate position when other franchises were willing to make him GM. What would you have had Reinsdorf to, fire Krause and replace him with MJ?

2. Trading Pip for scraps... Lots of debate on what happened here as well. One side has Krause letting Pip choose his team and taking whatever that team was willing to offer in a sign and trade as a sort of farewell thank you to Pip. I honestly don't have a better explanation why Krause would have settled for so little for a still very productive player.

3. Hiring Tim Floyd... No contest, although part of me still would like to see what Floyd could have done with some talent. I prefer Cartwright in any case.

4. Drafting Brand over Francis... Debatable. Hard to call Francis and Miller "franchise players" when their teams are two of the worst in the league. From a production standpoint, Brand has certainly justified his position as a #1 pick, IMO.

5. Attempting to sign 2 full-boat free agents... In hindsight, of course. But you'll never sign a T-Mac if you don't try.

6. 2000 draft - taking Fizer and Crawford... Saying we should have come out with O'Neal or Miles is fine, but at what cost? Certainly you wouldn't have advocated trading for those players if the overall deal were not in the Bulls' favor (or at least somewhat even)? The reports I've read had the Bulls giving up too much for either of those players.
 

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Originally posted by Kneepad
Gotta disagree with you on a couple of your points, VD:

1. Letting MJ leave organization... We'll probably never know what was offered and what wasn't. But the fact is the Bulls couldn't in all fairness offer Jordan the only position he truly wanted. Nor should Jordan have had to settle for a subordinate position when other franchises were willing to make him GM. What would you have had Reinsdorf to, fire Krause and replace him with MJ?

2. Trading Pip for scraps... Lots of debate on what happened here as well. One side has Krause letting Pip choose his team and taking whatever that team was willing to offer in a sign and trade as a sort of farewell thank you to Pip. I honestly don't have a better explanation why Krause would have settled for so little for a still very productive player.

3. Hiring Tim Floyd... No contest, although part of me still would like to see what Floyd could have done with some talent. I prefer Cartwright in any case.

4. Drafting Brand over Francis... Debatable. Hard to call Francis and Miller "franchise players" when their teams are two of the worst in the league. From a production standpoint, Brand has certainly justified his position as a #1 pick, IMO.

5. Attempting to sign 2 full-boat free agents... In hindsight, of course. But you'll never sign a T-Mac if you don't try.

6. 2000 draft - taking Fizer and Crawford... Saying we should have come out with O'Neal or Miles is fine, but at what cost? Certainly you wouldn't have advocated trading for those players if the overall deal were not in the Bulls' favor (or at least somewhat even)? The reports I've read had the Bulls giving up too much for either of those players.
Kneepad, you're a competent guy. So how about you take a stab at what you think JK's biggest mistake has been thus far?

Never ceases to amaze me how I'll produce a list and others will piggy-back my ideas and subtlely make their 'corrections'. Kneepad, you're too good/smart for that dude.

Couple add'l points:
1. My main point about MJ is that the Bulls should have done whatever it took to keep him in the organization. Jordan was ideally looking for a GM position, offered to him in Charlotte (imagine Jordan w/ Shinn?!!) and taken in Washington. But becuase JK and Jordan's relationship was way past strained, one of them had to go. And that 'one' was MJ.

2. Pip was underpaid as a Bull, period. At his peak (his near MVP season 1994-95) he was still getting under 3 mil. But Roy Rogers? Geez. An NBA Top 50 player (of all time) should get a little more in return.

3. Agreed, Tim Floyd never got much talent. Then again he didn't help Crawford or Artest develop well either.

4. If we were to redo the 1999 draft, believe me, no one would take Elton #1. If you honestly believe Brand rates ahead of Francis and B.Davis, that's fine. I just don't see it. Plus, Krause was pretty determined this time around NOT to build around a young, smallish guard.

5. JK deserves all the blame about the FA's. Why? Becuase he was so boastful and confident in the first place. Its not like he made it a secret. He structured contracts and accumulated draft picks to do just that. But it didn't happen. JK was not in tune w/ modern NBA players.. meanign you can't just flash the cheddar and they'll come.

6. Okay, but picking Fizer will always be questioned in my mind. JK (please look this up if you don't believe me) has taken a PF or C in the 1st rd. in something like 8 out of the 9 last drafts. I really wish he would have tried harder to get a D.Miles, but that's history.


Jerry Krause deserves blame for the Bulls demise. Yes, they have a young team on the verge of being competitive and exciting. But the Chicago Bulls have been the worst team in the NBA the past 4 seasons, period. Next to possibly Cleveland and Memphis of course. Believe me, I love the young studs we have... but JK has made plenty of mistakes in trying to rebuild this team. Any slack he gets, he deserves.

VD
 

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Originally posted by Vin Diesel



Jerry Krause deserves blame for the Bulls demise. Yes, they have a young team on the verge of being competitive and exciting. But the Chicago Bulls have been the worst team in the NBA the past 4 seasons, period. Next to possibly Cleveland and Memphis of course. Believe me, I love the young studs we have... but JK has made plenty of mistakes in trying to rebuild this team. Any slack he gets, he deserves.

VD
I don't agree simply b/c every dynasty in NBA history is followed by bad years. The star players get old and the team is stuck w/ low draft picks. The Celtics were bad for a decade. The Lakers were bad and Philly was terrible. The Bulls, as expected, were bad too. A good GM will turn it around.

The mistakes I think he has made were drafting Fizer w/ Elton Brand already on the team. I know he had a trade worked out but you just can't rely on other teams.

Meddling too much in the team play. Supposedly he insists on the triangle, etc. I think he should step back a little (if the rumors are true.)

Not drafting Francis. I think he's a franchise player that can win. Houston was considered a play-off contender and when he was out they dropped every game practically. Krause is great at putting together pieces and could have assembled a nice team around Francis.
 

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Sorry if you feel as though I was nitpicking. I just feel strongly that Krause gets a lot of crap that is undeserved.

...how about you take a stab at what you think JK's biggest mistake has been thus far?

Your question is a fair one, but one which I don't feel I can answer just yet. I prefer to look at rebuilding a team as a culmination of moves rather than try to pick apart and analyze each individual move. As an example, you're critical of the drafting of Brand. Fine. But Brand is what enabled the Bulls to acquire Tyson Chandler, and if Chandler becomes a superstar how do you then judge the drafting of Brand?

Krause has made some dumb moves (trading for Drew, drafting El-Amin, etc.). I think Bags may turn out to have been a mistake. But none of these moves have been critical-- yet. The key acquisitions-- Chandler, Curry, Crawford, Williams, Robinson, Rose-- are still too early to judge fairly. My yardstick for Krause's success when the rebuilding first started was a 7th championship within 10 years. At this point I consider the Bulls to be entering year 4 (the season following the lockout and MJ's retirement cannot be counted in fairness as all teams were scrambling just to fill rosters), and they have laid a foundation-- it now remains to be seen whether the pieces of that foundation are the right pieces. If so, Krause will have succeeded. If not, he most likely will have failed.

As for your additional points:

1. Why should the Bulls have done "whatever it took" to keep MJ in the organization? Why is it so damn important?

2. I agree Pip was underpaid as a Bull (although primarily through his own fault and the fault of his agent). And I agree that Krause might have gotten more for Pip in a trade. But Pip was an unrestricted free agent and the Bulls had very little leverage-- Pip made it clear he would not re-sign with the Bulls. That's why I have no choice other than to buy into the theory that Krause and the Bulls sacrificed their own future to a degree in order to satisfy Pip's wish to go to a contending team for big money. By the Bulls agreeing to a sign and trade, Pip got more money than he would have by signing outright with another team as a FA. I have no strong feelings one way or the other whether that was the right thing to do or not, but in any case it's what was done and is now water under the bridge.

4. I'm not saying Brand necessarily rates ahead of Francis and Davis. Just that if he does, he's not at all far behind, and I can't consider it a "mistake" to have taken Brand over the other two. For what it's worth, Brand has put up better production (statistically) in his career so far.

5. I agree JK was over-confident heading into the first FA period. And I'll add that his recruitment ideas were seriously lame. But fact is that the CBA changed after Krause initiated his plan, and the fact that other teams were suddenly able to offer as much "cheddar" as the Bulls derailed the plan. Not all of that was Krause's fault.

6. I believe Fizer was widely considered the best player on the board at #4 when the Bulls took him. The consensus top 3 going into the draft were Martin, Swift, and Fizer (in varying orders). The Clips surprised nearly everyone by reaching for Miles. At the time of that draft, in the position the Bulls were in, I think JK made the right decision taking the best talent.
 

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Krause's mistakes

Free agency: Yeah, Krause was going to fork over money to TMac, but he totally misjudged the effect of the CBA. Although he offered big money to TMac, he also offered huge contracts to:

* Grant "ankles of steel screws" Hill
* Tim "I changed my mind, I'm staying in Milwaukee" Thomas.
* Eddie "Please God don't make me play for the Bulls" Jones.
* Glen "Don't issue that press release yet" Rice.

In truth, Krause dodged bullets by those four guys standing him up.

* ERob at $6M this year counts as a pretty bad signing in my book.

His good signings, IMO, were Ron Mercer (who got slightly more than ERob, but at least somewhat earned it), and Brad Miller, who came around after being surly and out of shape his first year here.

I don't really consider Brent Barry to be a bad signing. He was slightly overpaid, but he certainly was no worse than ERob was. He's a better player as a 3rd or 4th option on a team- when he's not asked to do too much.

---------------------

With regard to the draft, Brand wasn't a "bad" pick, but if I were starting a team from scratch (as the Bulls effectively were), I'd rather have Baron Davis, Francis, or possibly Andre Miller.

Artest was a very good pick at #16.

In 2000, the jury is still out, but Fizer doesn't look like the right pick. If he was to be traded for Jermaine O'Neil, he still wasn't the right pick, because Krause should have sealed the deal before picking Fizer (don't trust blindly that the deal will work out). Dillybar over Big Jake is not something I want to contemplate. Contract issues or not, Big Jake was already in the US. It's not like anyone could have forced him to go back to Greece.

-------------------------

All of those issues leave untouched the large number of issues with regard to breaking up the dynasty, alienating the best player of all time, alienating possibly the best coach of all time, and hiring Tim Floyd, who, whether given enough talent to win in the league or not, clearly appeared out of his league.
 

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Originally posted by Lizzy


I don't agree simply b/c every dynasty in NBA history is followed by bad years. The star players get old and the team is stuck w/ low draft picks. The Celtics were bad for a decade. The Lakers were bad and Philly was terrible. The Bulls, as expected, were bad too. A good GM will turn it around.

The mistakes I think he has made were drafting Fizer w/ Elton Brand already on the team. I know he had a trade worked out but you just can't rely on other teams.

Meddling too much in the team play. Supposedly he insists on the triangle, etc. I think he should step back a little (if the rumors are true.)

Not drafting Francis. I think he's a franchise player that can win. Houston was considered a play-off contender and when he was out they dropped every game practically. Krause is great at putting together pieces and could have assembled a nice team around Francis.
Lizzy, I respectfully disagree about your points about the dynasty.

I agree that many teams after their dynasties are bad for a long, long time. The difference is, those dynasties like the Lakers and Celtics kept their stars around for a while... letting them age and diminish in skills. But the Bulls weren't that way. They left at the top of their games, and the Bulls managment (largely b/c of their hubris) thought they would return to greatness quickly after letting such stars go.

The perception (everywhere except Chicago it seems) is that the Bulls broke up the dynasty too quickly. Period. Yeah, we know Jordan was always iffy his last two seasons and Phil Jackson was contemplating retirement.. but my main question is why the Jerry's didn't try seriously locking these guys up long term? The Bulls could have won at least 2 more championships and been in the conference finals for a long long time (remember how the East is anways). Its a damn shame this wasn't allowed to happen.

Successful franchises rarely break up dynasties, and at that so damn quickly. Overnight the best player ever, arguably the best coach ever, and the dynasty that defined the 1990's was broken up. And for what? 4 seasons of the worst basketball in the NBA. And I know Jerry K's ego factored into this as well... he wanted to build his team w/o giving MJ credit he fully deserved. Listen to Jerry K talk, his hubris amazes me at times, geez.

Don't get me wrong, I love the new-look Bulls. Its just that we've been in the cellar for 4 seasons and may not get out for 2 more. It shouldn't have been like this. MJ should have been allowed to play out his career (and finish w/ his executive one) in Chicago and Bulls get more *bling bling rings.

VD
 

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Jammer, they took Jummy Collins that year. 1970, huh, I was around but my memory isn't that good. Pat Williams would have probably still been the GM at the time, though Motta forcing him out turned into a later disaster, (Gar Heard for John Hummer most notably). Was WIlliams still there?
Jimmy Collins was never much of a player and he is who we took.
Here is the first 2 rounds that year

1970 DRAFT

First Round
1 Det Bob Lanier St. Bonaventure
2 SD Rudy Tomjanovich Michigan
3 Atl Pete Maravich Louisiana State
4 Bos Dave Cowens Florida State
5 Cin Sam Lacey New Mexico State
6 Sea Jim Ard Cincinnati
7 Clev John Johnson Iowa
8 Port Geoff Petrie Princeton
9 Balt George Johnson Stephen F. Austin
10 Phoe Greg Howard New Mexico
11 Chi Jimmy Collins New Mexico State
12 Phil Al Henry Wisconsin
13 LAL Jim McMillian Columbia
14 Atl John Vallely UCLA
15 Buff John Hummer Princeton
16 Mil Gary Freeman Oregon State
17 NY Mike Price Illinois

Second Round
1 SD Calvin Murphy Niagara
2 Cin Nate Archibald Texas–El Paso
3 Sea Jake Ford Maryland State
4 Bos Rex Morgan Jacksonville
5 Cin Doug Cook Davidson
6 Sea Pete Cross San Francisco
7 Buff Cornell Warner Jackson State
8 Port Walt Gilmore Fort Valley State
9 Clev Dave Sorenson Ohio State
10 Phoe Fred Taylor Pan American
11 Chi Paul Ruffner Brigham Young
12 Phoe Joe DePre St. John's
13 LAL Earnest Killum Stetson
14 Atl Dan Hester Louisiana State
15 Det Ken Warzynski DePaul
16 Mil Bill Zopf Duquesne
17 NY Howie Wright Austin Peay
.
As for present day mistakes,it is too early to tell because we really haven't truly succesfully rebuilt yet. The CBA and FA changes were big, dumb luck in not signing Rice and Thomas were a boon, It's hard to call a #24 pick a big mistake regardless of circumstance.
The offseason can be boring.
 

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Originally posted by Jammer
His biggest mistake was thirty years ago. ... Coach Dick Motta wanted Tiny Archibald in the 1970 draft. ... Bulls management deferred to scout Jerry Krause to make the final call with the first round pick. Krause did not go with Motta's strong recommendation.
Jammer, do you have a source on that? I find it hard to believe that Motta and Pat Williams (who I believe was GM at the time as Songcycle suggested) would have left such a crucial decision to an underling.
 

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It always amazes me how people can get on Krause for not drafting a shooting PG in Francis or Davis.....and then get on him in the same thread for doing the exact opposite 3 years later?

:rolleyes:

As for Brand, in the end Chandler is likely to be a better pro, and a better fit up front alongside Curry. ANd if we Hadn't drafted Brand we would not have gotten Chandler.....prolly not even for francis. It is difficult to trade small for big.
 

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Originally posted by Vin Diesel
Yeah, we know Jordan was always iffy his last two seasons and Phil Jackson was contemplating retirement.. but my main question is why the Jerry's didn't try seriously locking these guys up long term?
They tried. Bulls made PJ a multi-year offer that would have made him the highest paid coach in the league. PJ declined (didn't want to see the team through rebuilding, needed to get his hip replaced, needed a sabbatical... pick your reason).

Originally posted by Vin Diesel
Successful franchises rarely break up dynasties, and at that so damn quickly. Overnight the best player ever, arguably the best coach ever, and the dynasty that defined the 1990's was broken up.
The way I remember it, Phil Jackson declined the Bulls offer to re-sign. Then MJ choose to retire. Neither one had a gun to their head as I recall.

Are you saying they should have re-upped Pip and the rest of the gang, found a new coach, and forged on?

Originally posted by Vin Diesel
It shouldn't have been like this. MJ should have been allowed to play out his career (and finish w/ his executive one) in Chicago and Bulls get more *bling bling rings.
As I recall, a quite generous offer was made for MJ to return as a player. I believe also an offer was made for him to basically select a coach of his choosing to replace Phil. MJ declined. Something about wanting to only play for Phil.

Seriously... it amazes me that the perception remains that the Bulls "broke up the dynasty".
 

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Originally posted by Kneepad

They tried. Bulls made PJ a multi-year offer that would have made him the highest paid coach in the league. PJ declined (didn't want to see the team through rebuilding, needed to get his hip replaced, needed a sabbatical... pick your reason).


The way I remember it, Phil Jackson declined the Bulls offer to re-sign. Then MJ choose to retire. Neither one had a gun to their head as I recall.

Are you saying they should have re-upped Pip and the rest of the gang, found a new coach, and forged on?


As I recall, a quite generous offer was made for MJ to return as a player. I believe also an offer was made for him to basically select a coach of his choosing to replace Phil. MJ declined. Something about wanting to only play for Phil.

Seriously... it amazes me that the perception remains that the Bulls "broke up the dynasty".
Kneepad, you are right on all counts. Jackson turned down multi year offers on more than one offseason and in his final year with the Bulls, Reinsdorf stated publicly that Jackson was welcome back if he so chose. Jordan would have been paid $36 by the Bulls if he had stuck around for another year and Pippen was only traded after MJ's retirement. If we had gotten more for Pippen, we would have won more games, not have gotten Brand in the draft the next year and would not gotten these other great draft picks and would have been stuck in mediocity for years.
 
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