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Discussion Starter #1
from hoopsworld.com...

Printed reports from the region say that Washington Wizards forward Kwame Brown may not be endearing himself to the coaching staff as he is apparently not putting in the work this summer, most had hoped and predicted he would do, and is out of shape.

I'm not even suggesting that Kwame's going to end up a bust, but so far he's done nothing to justify being the overall #1 pick in the 2001 draft.

What I would like to suggest is that Kwame may not be the problem at all. The fault may really lie with Collins and Jordan, neither of whom have ever been mistaken for a couple of caring, compassionate guys. Collins has a history of browbeating some of his players to the point where they just stop listening (Chicago, Detroit). And Jordan is notorious for his bullying and intimidation tactics during practice.

If Kwame's going to make his mark in this league, I don't think it will be in Washington. Somehow I think this kid would be much better off under the tutelage of a head coach like Tomjanovich, Popovich, or Cartwright, three class acts who have demonstrated the ability to motivate and instruct young kids like Brown.

I really hope Jordan trades this kid before he and his henchman ruin him. Kwame's still got a bright future, but it's not going to happen playing for those two thugs.
 

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First of all your source is just plain wrong.

Printed reports?

I think in one article in the Washington Times has it been reported about Kwame's conditioning. For every other outlet it has been all positive. Even in that report in the Washington Times it says he was dominant in minicamp. Why the discrepancy? Could it be because Kwame is blowing off the media? Who is the unnamed source in that article? Hoopsworld is doing a good job of trying to make a story out of nothing. It is amusing the coaching staff would say he is out of shape when he spent the summer working with the conditioning coach. I thought that made him coaching staff.

Collins was there for Grant and Pippen. If you look back you will see that their learning curve was fairly steep as well. Pippen was so afraid to shoot his first couple years he tried to bank everything in. Collins also had Houston in Detroit. I guess your Collins theory is worthless.

And of course MJ couldn't have mellowed since then either. Cartwright on the other hand has shown so much hasn't he? He actually had to play the teens after Krause decimated the Roster and gave him absolutely no choice in the matter and you judge him after a "successful" half a season.

Quite frankly, you seem to not have a grasp of the subject and probably should stop posting about it until you do.
 

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There may some truth to that, Dickie. It's well documented that Collins and Jordan aren't necessarily the best guys for young, fragile psyches to be around.

But at the same time, don't you think Kwame has to just grow up and act like a man at some point? He's the one who made the decision to jump into the deep water of the NBA. Jordan and Collins didn't force him. Kwame has his career in his own hands-- he's got to be the one to step up and make something of himself.

Truth is he is a player who probably would have been much better off going to college.
 

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I agree on the college viewpoint. I think he was forced into the situation because of his obligation towards his mother. I don't think that will necessarily reflect on his NBA future but I think that he has struggled with handling things off the basketball court and letting that influence him on the court.

Collins said it best. When Kwame came on the team with guys like Rip and MJ he wanted to just fit in. He is however the number 1 pick, and for the franchise to be where it wants to be in the future he needs to be the star that entails. Fitting in is not good enough. He needs to be that star.

Is that an unreasonable request? No. Is Kwame ready to fulfill it? Maybe not, but so far outside of the Times article the word is that he is trying and he is working a lot harder at it than he had shown in the past.

It is about personal accountability and if he breaks because of MJ or Collins being harsh on him, then he never had it to begin with. And so far nothing he has shown has said he doesn't have it.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Originally posted by BCH

Quite frankly, you seem to not have a grasp of the subject and probably should stop posting about it until you do.
BCH,
Whatever you do, I hope you never lose that misplaced arrogance. It's the only thing that makes you a minimally entertaining read (emphasis on entertain vs. informative).:laugh:
 

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Dickie,

Re-read my post. I don't think you understood it.

Let me just say that you wow me with your wit and your humble posting, you should really teach me how to do that.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Originally posted by Kneepad
There may some truth to that, Dickie. It's well documented that Collins and Jordan aren't necessarily the best guys for young, fragile psyches to be around.

But at the same time, don't you think Kwame has to just grow up and act like a man at some point? He's the one who made the decision to jump into the deep water of the NBA. Jordan and Collins didn't force him. Kwame has his career in his own hands-- he's got to be the one to step up and make something of himself.

Truth is he is a player who probably would have been much better off going to college.
Kneepad,
I'd say your perspective of the situation is probably quite accurate. Both sides are likely to be found culpable if the truth be told. And like you, I believe there are better places for Kwame right now than Washington...you suggest he may have been better off in college (I wholeheartedly agree). But given the fact that the dye has been cast professionally, so to speak, I'd like to see him get as far away as possible from two guys who are trying to reinvent themselves at the expense of everyone else around them.
 

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Originally posted by DickieHurtz
I'd like to see him get as far away as possible from two guys who are trying to reinvent themselves at the expense of everyone else around them.
Krause and Reinsdorf don't have anything to do with the Wizards.
 

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I'm with BCH on this one

Collins did a fine job developing players like Pippen, Grant & Houston. Players like King, & Sellers never got much better. But it’s not like these guys went anywhere else and did anything. King got us Longley and I think Sellers got us a 1st round draft pick. So at least other teams liked their potential, and must have worked to develop them as well. Maybe King and Sellers just did not have it. As far as Collins’ style, a lot of pretty good coaches have had players stop listening to them. Some have said that it’s inevitable. Jordan thought that he was good enough after playing for him. It’s good enough for me.

Certainly, in comparison to Collins, Cartwright has not proven jack. How could he? He has not even been a head coach for a year. As for Popovich, he did ok when the guys came ready to play like Duncan and Parker. Has he really developed any players? (I do think that just about every coach in the league suffers in comparison to Rudy (and Phil). But Rudy was not an option when Collins got hired.)

As for Jordan, give the guy some credit for maturing in the last 10-15 years. None of the guys that he has gotten rid of as a GM have done anything although Alexander might.

As for asking for greatness out of Kwame, if the kid has the goods, should anything else be asked for? If Tyson Chandler is happy just to be a defensive role-player, should the Bulls ask for more?

IMHO, if only considering personality in dealing with players, I would take Collins and Jordan over the two Jerrys any day of the week.
 

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Originally posted by BCH


Krause and Reinsdorf don't have anything to do with the Wizards.
Kwame plays for the Wizards, not the Bulls. He was the number one draft choice in 2001 in which MJ had the first pick. He used it on Kwame Brown.
 

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Originally posted by RealFan


Kwame plays for the Wizards, not the Bulls. He was the number one draft choice in 2001 in which MJ had the first pick. He used it on Kwame Brown.
Where's the link?
 

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Re: I'm with BCH on this one

Pippen and Grant likely would have become great players no matter who the head coach was. Horace has long credited strength coach Al Vermeil and assistant coach John Bach as the key factors in his development. Pippen truly thrived once Phil Jackson was made head coach because PJ took the ball out of MJ's hands and put it more in Pip's (birth of the "point forward").

As for King and Sellers... from what I have read King was lazy, always out of shape, and expected to succeed in the NBA based on his success in college. Not exactly a recipe for success. Sellers is more of a mystery-- the guy was a rebounding force in the Big Ten, but seemed to shy away from contact in the NBA. I do know Jordan was merciless in his criticism of Sellers-- what effect that had on Sellers is impossible to say.

An interesting question is how many championships the Bulls would have won had Doug Collins remained coach.

MJ's hiring of Collins has always mystified me. Rumor is that he first offered the job to several other coaches, but they all declined. It believe (at least in part) that MJ "settled" for Collins because he was somewhat familiar with him and figured he'd take the job. I'm sure both Collins and MJ have matured and mellowed since their days with the Bulls.

No, Cartwright has not proven jack. Neither had Phil Jackson when he was first hired. I personally would much rather have an unproven coach who I had faith in than some old retread hired just because he has a "name".

Collins/Jordan vs. Krause/Reinsdorf... interesting comparison. I guess I don't know enough about present-day Collins/Jordan to know how they will fare. I certainly have no problem with Krause/Reinsdorf running my favorite team, though. I still say the day will come when MJ is going to have to make the same kind of hard decisions with players that Krause made and for which MJ so harshly criticized Krause. That will be interesting to observe.
 

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Blashphemy.

Dickie clearly said he wanted to get Kwame "as far away as possible from two guys who are trying to reinvent themselves at the expense of everyone else around them."

You sure he wasn't talking about the Bulls and Krause and Reinsdorf?
 

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Originally posted by BCH
Blashphemy.

Dickie clearly said he wanted to get Kwame "as far away as possible from two guys who are trying to reinvent themselves at the expense of everyone else around them."

You sure he wasn't talking about the Bulls and Krause and Reinsdorf?
Again, I remind you that Kwame plays for the Wizards (formerly the Bullets and maybe that's the source of your confusion). So if Kwame needs to get away from two guys who are trying to reinvent themselves, I'd think that the two guys are DC and MJ. But that's just me. :)
 

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Kneepad,

MJ's hiring of Collins has always mystified me. Rumor is that he first offered the job to several other coaches, but they all declined. It believe (at least in part) that MJ "settled" for Collins because he was somewhat familiar with him and figured he'd take the job.
Please validate this was ever a rumor. Jordan contacted Collins as soon as he started thinking about a return, and while Hamilton was still under contract. Please give me a link to anything that even suggest Collins was not the first choice.

Nice 20/20 hidsight on the Pippen and Grant inevitability towards greatness. Last I check Bach was an assistant with the Wizards.
 

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Originally posted by BCH
Kneepad,



Please validate this was ever a rumor. Jordan contacted Collins as soon as he started thinking about a return, and while Hamilton was still under contract. Please give me a link to anything that even suggest Collins was not the first choice.
I agree that Doug was likely the first guy MJ contacted. The only other person I could see MJ preferring is PJ. But since PJ was under contract, I think Doug was the next obvious choice.

Who else would MJ have called? I can't think of anyone. Chuck Daly?
 

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Originally posted by RealFan


Again, I remind you that Kwame plays for the Wizards (formerly the Bullets and maybe that's the source of your confusion). So if Kwame needs to get away from two guys who are trying to reinvent themselves, I'd think that the two guys are DC and MJ. But that's just me. :)
oh. i thought he was referring to the GM that blew up a championship team and has reinvented himself a couple times over the past couple of years rebuilding and the owner who refused to keep a good thing when he had it, preferring to take the money instead, Krause and Reinsdorf. Your link was valid so you must be right.
 

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Originally posted by BCH


oh. i thought he was referring to the GM that blew up a championship team and has reinvented himself a couple times over the past couple of years rebuilding and the owner who refused to keep a good thing when he had it, preferring to take the money instead, Krause and Reinsdorf. Your link was valid so you must be right.
Though your story sounds familiar, I am quite certain that said breakup also involved an egotistical head coach and a certain world renowned player who inextricably linked his fate to the coach. The breakup was the result of a group dynamic and certainly cannot be attributed to one person.

But again I remind you, Kwame Brown plays for the Wizards. Since Reinsdorf and Krause do not own/work for the Wizards, I deduce that the reference above is to MJ and DC. Don't ask me how I figured it out!!!
 
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