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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
where do the raps rank now that Vince has more support on offence? :cool:

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Simply amazing.

Murray was going to be a problem after the infamous fax he sent out and Cleveland at least got a 1st rounder for him.

The Raps get immediate help though, so it will be interesting to see how Mo Pete likes it.
 

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First of all, can someone please tell me the deal with this "infamous fax" that Murray sent out? As usual, neither ESPN.com nor sportingnews.com reported this story. Can you guys possibly tell me where you are getting yr news? RealGM.com seems to be the best place I've found, but even THEY didn't report THIS story.

Second of all, can a mod please merge the two Lamond Murray to the Raptors threads?
 

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Here is a link, I am not sure why you had difficulty finding it because it was widely reported:

http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/sports/3792273.htm

Here is the text of his Fax:

``To whom it may concern: I'm glad I had the opportunity to work for Mr. Gund. I tried my best to fulfill my obligations to the team and to the city. I've kept my professionalism up until this point, but every year we keep rebuilding a house on no foundation. Ask yourself, how many promises would you keep believing, if you were leading the team with scoring, and your family and fans can't even purchase your jersey from the team store? The question from the beginning has been, and still is, `What is my role?' Play me or trade me.''


I am not sure what two threads you want merged. I know there is one on the Raptors board, as well as one on the general NBA board, not counting the poll thread. I am hesitant to merge the Poll thread with this general thread because the Poll thread started as speculation. Lets see how these threds develop and a mod of this board can merge as they deemnecessary.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
The Raps get immediate help though, so it will be interesting to see how Mo Pete likes it.
I hope things go well. I wouldn't want to bench or trade Mo Pete just yet, especially with that one year option being picked up. he's progressing quite nicely and giving up on him now as a starter would be a mistake. perhaps they could use murray as trade bait now that we've got someone to trade away with that kind of value (talent + money wise).

hmmm, i wonder if this is waht grunwald's thinking.

:grinning:
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Originally posted by <b>robyg1974</b>!
Second of all, can a mod please merge the two Lamond Murray to the Raptors threads?
that other one was done as a poll before a trade. this one was done without a poll, after the trade was confirmed. i don't think there's a need to merge the two trades.

:rolleyes:
 

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For some reason this trade is screaming Lebron James...This trade reminds me of the Bulls trade of Brand for Chandler except the Cav's got painfully shortchanged. Cav's are going to be horrible this year--really, really bad.
 

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Originally posted by <b>murdarous</b>!


I hope things go well. I wouldn't want to bench or trade Mo Pete just yet, especially with that one year option being picked up. he's progressing quite nicely and giving up on him now as a starter would be a mistake. perhaps they could use murray as trade bait now that we've got someone to trade away with that kind of value (talent + money wise).

hmmm, i wonder if this is waht grunwald's thinking.

:grinning:
Murray as "trade bait"? Not likely; nobody wants this dude, as we've seen over the last few weeks.

Murray instantly becomes this team's 6th man, instant offense off the bench, the backup SG/SF. Vince Carter remains the starter at SG, Mo Pete remains the starter at SF. Everybody's happy. Nobody's giving up on Mo Pete as a starter. The Raptors made this deal because they are woefully shorthanded, especially on the perimeter. Before getting Lamond Murray, the team's only backup perimeter player was LINDSAY HUNTER. Chris Jefferies remains unsigned, and, the way it's looking right now, he'll probably end up getting shipped off over the next couple of weeks for a future draft pick, probably a 2nd rounder. Toronto is trying to avoid the luxury tax, which is the reasoning behind all of their postseason moves (or non-moves, if you want to think about it that way), and signing Chris Jefferies may well put the team over the luxury tax threshold.

So, now, the team has TWO backup perimeter players on its roster instead of just ONE. Expect Vince, Mo Pete AND Murray to all get PLENTY of playing time for the Raptors, who now look like this (assuming they don't sign Chris Jefferies, as I am speculating):

Starting lineup

PG Alvin Williams (32 minutes/game)
SG Vince Carter (40 minutes/game)
SF Morris Peterson (32 minutes/game)
PF Jerome Williams (28 minutes/game)
C Antonio Davis (32 minutes/game)

Key reserves: Lamond Murray (24 minutes/game), Lindsay Hunter (16 minutes/game), Michael Bradley (16 minutes/game), Eric Montross (12 minutes/game), Mamadou N'Dyaiae (8 minutes/game)

End of the bench (no PT): Hakeem Olajuwon (assorted injuries), Nate Huffman

The team actually really needed Lamond Murray for THIS year, to be honest. However, I think that, LONG term, this trade will look awfully stupid, since I don't like the Raptors' LONG term prospects (due to an aging roster and major payroll problems, this team should get WORSE, not BETTER, over the next several seasons, which means that the Cavs will end up getting a lottery pick out of this deal).

But SHORT term, this is a pretty smart trade for Toronto. This team has a decent shot at getting one of those final two playoff spots in the East. I still think they'll come up just short, but if somebody slips/disappoints, the Raptors should get the #7 or #8 playoff seed. Here are my updated Eastern Conference projections:

1 Nets
2 Hornets
3 Pistons
4 76ers
5 Magic
6 Wizards
7 Pacers
8 Celtics
---
9 Raptors
10 Hawks
11 Bucks
12 Heat
13 Bulls
14 Knicks
15 Cavs

Like I said, if somebody slips--say, if MJ gets seriously hurt again in Washington, or if the Vin Baker trade ends up hurting the Celtics even more than I obviously anticipate, or if the 76ers, Magic, or Pacers have unexpected injuries or team chemistry problems--the Raptors should be able to swoop in and get a playoff spot. Of course, the Raptors THEMSELVES could have injuries or team chemistry problems; after all, like I said, that's an aging roster, and a pretty injury-prone roster. Hell, I'm already assuming that it's going to be a lost season for Hakeem!
 

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The Raps get some scoring support off the bench. Murray will be playing behind Mo and Vince, this trade also brings stability in the Raptors rotation. The move by Cleveland, was basically to release the tension for both sides. The Disgruntled Murray really wanted out of Cleveland, with the off season trade for Miles and the signing of R.Davis, he knew his PT was up in the air. :( But more important, his issues with the Cleveland management just wasn't the same anymore. The fire was burning between the 2 sides.
 

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STUPID TRADE!

I know the Cavs wanted to make room for Darius Miles...but they atleast could've gotten someone decent...all they got was Michael Stewart!:dead:
 

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Murray wasn't happy coming off the bench in Cleveland, I doubt he will be happy in the same role with the Raptors.
 

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This is insanity.

Lamond Murray is a good shooter, a player with good size, knows how to board, pass the ball, and play adequate defense. He's fairly quick and can create his own offense, although he won't break anyone down with crossovers. He is in the prime of his career.

Yogi Stewart is a superb shot-blocker in the mold of Jim McIlvaine. He is not young anymore, but can have a successful time as a full-time backup center if anyone would give him the chance. He will not score, though.. in the past two years, he has amassed 55 points over 37 games. He is a specialist, at best.

A first round pick from the Raptors will be near 20. A second round pick from the Cavs will be 30-35, for at least the next few seasons. That means the Raptors could come away with a Trenton Hassell or a Gilbert Arenas, where the Cavs could get a Samuel Dalembert or a Kirk Haston. (even worse, Michael Redd vs. Dalibor Bagaric, or Nick Van Exel vs. Scott Burrell). The draft, basically, is no sure thing, and the difference between a late first-rounder and an early second-rounder is not great.

This trade is truly hilarious. The Raptors should start Murray and use Mo Pete off the bench, but giving him a lot of quality minutes.

VC: 35 mpg
Mo Pete: 29 mpg
Murray: 32 mpg

The three man SG/SF rotation at work... always a starting quality player on the floor. That's a nice thing. Three guys that can all shoot the long ball. Three guys that can all score and get hot at any given time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Originally posted by <b>robyg1974</b>!

Starting lineup

PG Alvin Williams (32 minutes/game)
SG Vince Carter (40 minutes/game)
SF Morris Peterson (32 minutes/game)
PF Jerome Williams (28 minutes/game)
C Antonio Davis (32 minutes/game)

1 Nets
2 Hornets
3 Pistons
4 76ers
5 Magic
6 Wizards
7 Pacers
8 Celtics
---
9 Raptors
10 Hawks
11 Bucks
12 Heat
13 Bulls
14 Knicks
15 Cavs
I cannot disagree more with your post. First off, why would the put AD back in the center position while they have a good core of role playing centers (Montross, N'diaye, Huffman) while you post Raptors being 9th even with this trade? They made it to 7th practically without Vince after the break (mind you he wasn't 100% while he played those few games after the break).

:devil:
 

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End of the bench (no PT): Hakeem Olajuwon (assorted injuries), Nate Huffman
Nate Huffman was a star in Europe and may even start in 2nd half of the season at PF. he got good shot and is mobile.

He is undoubtfully better than n'dayae and will contribute for raptors like keon clark did. he's for real.
 

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Originally posted by <b>brazys</b>!


Nate Huffman was a star in Europe and may even start in 2nd half of the season at PF. he got good shot and is mobile.

He is undoubtfully better than n'dayae and will contribute for raptors like keon clark did. he's for real.
You are right. Huffman is a great player. He could be a great offensive help in the inside game of the Raptors.
 

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Originally posted by <b>brazys</b>!

Nate Huffman was a star in Europe and may even start in 2nd half of the season at PF. he got good shot and is mobile.

He is undoubtfully better than n'dayae and will contribute for raptors like keon clark did. he's for real.
Dude, I think you need to take yr own advice (via The P.E.) and "don't believe the hype." Huffman will NOT "contribute for raptors like keon clark did," give me a break, this guy will sit at the end of the bench. They signed this guy because he has international experience and because he comes extremely cheap. The Raptors are all about saving money right now.

Originally posted by <b>murdarous</b>!

First off, why would the put AD back in the center position while they have a good core of role playing centers (Montross, N'diaye, Huffman) while you post Raptors being 9th even with this trade?
Well, maybe the Raptors WON'T move Antonio Davis back to center, but I can't imagine why not, with Hakeem obviously hurting bigtime (expect NOTHING from The Dream this season, Raptors fans). A Montross-N'Dyaiae-Huffman three-headed center is NOT "a good core of role playing centers," that is ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY THE WORST center situation in the NBA! The best possible lineup that Toronto can put out on the floor is Alvin Williams-Vince Carter-Mo Pete-Jerome Williams-Antonio Davis, right? Well, then why would you play A.D. at power forward? I'm sure he'll play a little PF, but he should play more C than PF, if the Raptors are interested in being the best team they can possibly be!

RAPTORS FANS, in general, are really kidding themselves about what REALLY happened last year and their ACTUAL prospects for this year. What REALLY happened last year is that the team collapsed BEFORE Vince Carter got hurt, not AFTER, and that the ONLY REASON this team made the playoffs AT ALL is because a lot of things went their way (MJ got hurt, the Wiz were clearly well on their way to making the playoffs before that happened; the Bucks inexplicably collapsed down the stretch; the Heat got off to a godawful 5-23 start and could never fully recover).

And what happened this offseason? The other day, one of our more sensible regulars, R-Star, stated that the Raptors IMPROVED this offseason. WHOA! They lost one of their top four or five players (Keon Clark), their backup veteran PG (Chris Childs), their backup veteran SG (Dell Curry) and replaced them with Nate Huffman (11th or 12th man), Lamond Murray (how good can this guy be, he is signed to a perfectly reasonable contract, coming off a career year, and absolutely NOBODY wanted him, that should tell you something), and Lindsey Hunter (as mediocre as they come, obviously, PLEASE do NOT try to defend this guy, he SUCKS). Not to mention trading the #20 pick for the #27 pick. And they apparently aren't even going to SIGN the #27 pick, they're APPARENTLY going to TRADE the rights to Chris Jefferies for a future pick before the season starts in YET ANOTHER DESPERATE ATTEMPT to trim payroll and avoid the luxury tax. The team COULD have drafted several guys who appear to be the steals of the draft at #20 (Kareem Rush, possibly Qyntel Woods, Casey Jacobsen, and Tayshaun Prince); instead, they opted to trim payroll.

Keep in mind that this team's injury problems aren't going away. Hakeem is already on the shelf, probably for good; Antonio Davis isn't getting any younger; Jerome Williams has missed a TON of ballgames over the past couple of years (god only knows why Glen Grunfeld gave that dude such a huge longterm contract!); even Lamond Murray is a pretty injury-prone player, I believe.

Despite all of these problems, like I said, if some things go Toronto's way again this season, they should sneak into the playoffs. Why? Because Vince Carter is REALLY, REALLY GOOD. But fellas, this team is NOT a serious contender in the East, this team did NOT get better this offseason, this team's longterm prospects are NOT good. And the Raptors just traded a future 1st round pick--which should end up being a lottery pick, since I don't see this team as a perennial playoff team over the next several seasons--for LAMOND MURRAY. It's not looking good.

One more thing...

Originally posted by <b>The X Factor</b>!

STUPID TRADE!

I know the Cavs wanted to make room for Darius Miles...but they atleast could've gotten someone decent...all they got was Michael Stewart!
No, the Cavs got a future 1st round pick from the Raptors. They can't get it any sooner than 2004, and, by then, the Raptors should be a perennial lottery team again. The Cavs got a future lottery pick for Lamond Murray, a guy they couldn't GIVE AWAY all summer long. Jim Paxson actually ripped somebody ELSE off for a change, in other words.
 

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Roby,
While I agree with you that the Raptors certainly didn't improve in the offseason, I think that your predictions of constant loosing are a little far fetched. Maybe I'm one of these Raptor fans that are deluding themselves, but I don't think so.
I disagree completely with your assesment of what happened last year. In fact the Raptors hadn't collapsed before Vince got hurt. They were 28-22, 1 game out of first in the central, and were on something like a 8-2 streak when Carter got hurt. Now, he still tried to play for a few games hurt, and that's when the losing started. Then he sat, and they really started losing. With Vince healthy, though, they are at least a decent team. There is no way that the Raptors would ever become a "perennial lottery" team with Vince. If they spent any more than two seasons in the lottery they would come out with two decent players that would undoubtably lead them back into the playoffs alongside VC. But I don't think they'll even spend more than one year out of the playoffs in the next 7 years.
 

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The success of Toronto Raptors will rely much on Vince Carter's shoulder. He has to come in and lead this team which built the momentum at the end of last season. With or without Lamond Murray, it doesn't matter. Of course adding Murray will solve one of the problem they had - bench scoring, but it could very well created another problem - who's going to start? Murray and Mo Pete both want to start but they're best coming off the bench, both of them don't realise that, yet. Will they happy if either one of them come off the bench? I can see that they will actually rotate Murray and Mo Pete at starting 3. Right now Mo Pete gets the nod because he knows the system. The important thing is will Murray contend to sit on the bench and fight for his chance?

Actually I think Cavs made a good deal here - the 1 rounder, like Roby said, could be a lottery pick. Since they are going to lost Murray anyway so a low-lotto is better than nothing because nobody wants Murray. For the Raptors? I don't know. They're still hurt up front, they have too many holes to fill. They will go as far as Vince leads them. But probably not too far...
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Originally posted by <b>robyg1974</b>!

A Montross-N'Dyaiae-Huffman three-headed center is NOT "a good core of role playing centers," that is ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY THE WORST center situation in the NBA!
These guys do not have to be stars or be very offensive minded. All they have to do is be a bid body in the middle and alter some of the opponent's shots. BTW, Worst? Ahem, look at the situation with Miami, Orlando, Boston, Golden State (just to name a few).

Originally posted by <b>robyg1974</b>!

RAPTORS FANS, in general, are really kidding themselves about what REALLY happened last year and their ACTUAL prospects for this year. What REALLY happened last year is that the team collapsed BEFORE Vince Carter got hurt, not AFTER, and that the ONLY REASON this team made the playoffs AT ALL is because a lot of things went their way (MJ got hurt, the Wiz were clearly well on their way to making the playoffs before that happened; the Bucks inexplicably collapsed down the stretch; the Heat got off to a godawful 5-23 start and could never fully recover).
So you're saying the Raptors got luck 11 of 13 times? You're not, the opponents just gave us the victory. The fact of the matter is, before this huge upside the Raptors were able to pick up from their dismal performance of a i think 14 game losing streak? (around there), and a team without they're star player can come back and win 11 of 13 games still doesn't get any recognition? Something's wrong here.

Originally posted by <b>robyg1974</b>!

WHOA! They lost one of their top four or five players (Keon Clark), their backup veteran PG (Chris Childs), their backup veteran SG (Dell Curry) and replaced them with Nate Huffman (11th or 12th man), Lamond Murray (how good can this guy be, he is signed to a perfectly reasonable contract, coming off a career year, and absolutely NOBODY wanted him, that should tell you something), and Lindsey Hunter (as mediocre as they come, obviously, PLEASE do NOT try to defend this guy, he SUCKS). Not to mention trading the #20 pick for the #27 pick. And they apparently aren't even going to SIGN the #27 pick, they're APPARENTLY going to TRADE the rights to Chris Jefferies for a future pick before the season starts in YET ANOTHER DESPERATE ATTEMPT to trim payroll and avoid the luxury tax.
Keon Clark will be replaced by the scoring of Murray. Which will prolly be more plentiful than the scoring number of Clark.

Chris Childs had an awful shooting year last season. He couldn't buy a bucket during the 2 months left on the season. I would gladly have accepted Lindsey over Chris after last year's performance. BTW, on game 5 of the playoffs, Raps were down 3, Childs took a wild shot close at the end of the game saying afterwards "I though we were down by 4."

The point is, give the Raps more credit. Surely they're a better team than the uncharacteristic Sixers or the messed-up teaming of the Pacers. Now with the adding of Murray, they're a better team than the Bucks. :rolleyes:
 

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murdarous

The Raptors arent better than the Pacers. Period. They are better than the Bucks though, they're not going anywhere this year. And I also agree that they are better than the sixers.
 
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