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All in all, do you guys think the trade was beneficial, harmful, or had no effect to the team?
Recall: Davis, JYD, Chris Jefferies FOR Rose, Marshall, Baxter
Recall: Davis, JYD, Chris Jefferies FOR Rose, Marshall, Baxter
Looking back on the A.D & JYD trade...
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undefined_playa said:
we lost heart and grit in both Davis and JYD, and lost nothing in 'stoned' Chris Jefferies
we gained, scoring/swingman in Rose, paremeter shooting in Marshall, and potential in Baxter
overall, the heart from Davis was lost at the begining of the season as he ------- about being here and cried not to play center...
JYD was a loss that was critical for the Raps as his NBA true value was only manufactored and reeped here in his days as a RAP
nothing positive to say about Jefferies....and looking back at it, Karem Rush was a keeper compared to where is he now 'Jefferies'
honestly other than losing JYD, I was happy with this team on paper and really excited with the first 5 games after the trade, there was a buzz again at the ACC and optimism in the air...when the confetti settled and the booz wore off, and soberness hit, well, you have our current squad...
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That's really when the panic began to set in w/ Grunwald - this was a band-aid lateral movement @ best and if anything, carved out any character that the team possessed - but this was pretty symptomatic of Glen's tenure - short term solutions and fixes w/ very little foresight as to future consequences and/or ramifications - bringing in an aged and over-the-hill Olajuwon, a coach who boasted the most # of wins (but a career average of 0.500 @ best - ignoring losses is not a wise gamble) in Lenny Wilkins - Nate Hoffman, Michael Stewart, etc., etc.spinz said:
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good trade imo. EVen on the money front. JYD would be eating 7mil worth of our upcoming 2007 capspace
could have been a great trade if we'd followed up with a Donyell move a couple summers ago
could have been a great trade if we'd followed up with a Donyell move a couple summers ago
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Despite the loss of interior toughness the fact that Davis demanded a trade and was playing horrible at the start of that season gave us little choice. I think we won the trade in terms of talent, possibly component-by-component (4-0).
Probably would've been even better if Alvin had been able to pass a physical.
Probably would've been even better if Alvin had been able to pass a physical.
in my head, there's no question that we got the better end of that deal- or, at the very least, we got the better end as it pertained to us. chicago could make the same claim- maybe the deal was important and helpful for both clubs.
it's hard for me to fathom how some fans and mediatypes can be so shortsighted as to think that that particular trade was poor because of what we did with the players we acquired. "jalen got 0 points last night! bad trade!" "donyell marshall was lost for nothing in free agency- bad trade!" it's like we conveniently turn a blind eye to the alternative and use the deal as an excuse to complain further.
what's more, it's like the same people have forgotten their own opinions on the players we lost at the time and the state of our franchise at the time. it's too convenient- but people aren't stupid. they know this already.
no matter whether you hate jalen and donyell, they were not acquired for all-stars--- which says nothing about the contracts they all had affixed to their names. further, antonio wanted to leave and, by all accounts, was a disruptive influence behind closed doors. his time in toronto was not without its own controversy. on the other hand, jyd was indeed a fan favourite, sure, but he was frequently finding himself on the injured list- so much so that he's already a retired commodity in the league. and to be honest, while i agree that he was a fan fave for a period, he wasn't the same when we arrived in december 2003- neither in his head nor in ours (as fans). things had changed already. put differently, we can complain about losing a player who was entertaining in december 1999, but the fact remains that we got rid of him four years later. things had changed by then.
and the players we got back? i think jalen and marshall were the best two players in the trade. i think vince (who was an important consideration at that time) absolutely benefited more from jalen than he would have from the two that left, and while that didn't have much of an impact on our win total, i think our world would have certainly been even worse with AD and jerome. hard to imagine, i know.
in the end, i guess my point is simple: while you might not like jalen and/or donyell, nor what our team has done with them, i think it's pretty clear that things would have been worse without them (if that can be heard). of course, we want to put our finger on the problem, thereby helping to identify the solution, but it's not that easy- using jalen, donyell and grunwald for that exercise is irresponsible and childish (imo).
peace
it's hard for me to fathom how some fans and mediatypes can be so shortsighted as to think that that particular trade was poor because of what we did with the players we acquired. "jalen got 0 points last night! bad trade!" "donyell marshall was lost for nothing in free agency- bad trade!" it's like we conveniently turn a blind eye to the alternative and use the deal as an excuse to complain further.
what's more, it's like the same people have forgotten their own opinions on the players we lost at the time and the state of our franchise at the time. it's too convenient- but people aren't stupid. they know this already.
no matter whether you hate jalen and donyell, they were not acquired for all-stars--- which says nothing about the contracts they all had affixed to their names. further, antonio wanted to leave and, by all accounts, was a disruptive influence behind closed doors. his time in toronto was not without its own controversy. on the other hand, jyd was indeed a fan favourite, sure, but he was frequently finding himself on the injured list- so much so that he's already a retired commodity in the league. and to be honest, while i agree that he was a fan fave for a period, he wasn't the same when we arrived in december 2003- neither in his head nor in ours (as fans). things had changed already. put differently, we can complain about losing a player who was entertaining in december 1999, but the fact remains that we got rid of him four years later. things had changed by then.
and the players we got back? i think jalen and marshall were the best two players in the trade. i think vince (who was an important consideration at that time) absolutely benefited more from jalen than he would have from the two that left, and while that didn't have much of an impact on our win total, i think our world would have certainly been even worse with AD and jerome. hard to imagine, i know.
in the end, i guess my point is simple: while you might not like jalen and/or donyell, nor what our team has done with them, i think it's pretty clear that things would have been worse without them (if that can be heard). of course, we want to put our finger on the problem, thereby helping to identify the solution, but it's not that easy- using jalen, donyell and grunwald for that exercise is irresponsible and childish (imo).
peace
The passing of time puts a new perspective on the trade. Happens all the time. Just like with drafts as I say will happen with the whole Iggy issue in a few years. Imagine if Bender had turned out to be an all-star for Indy.
At the time this CHI trade looked like a HUGE win for the Raps. We completely ripped off the Bulls. But our team was 8-8 with AD/JYD and could only win 25 of the final 66 games. Even a disgruntled AD was better for our team and he would have picked up his play if the club told him he wasn't going anywhere and we were in the playoff hunt.
Baxter and MasonJr were the pearls of the trade. Young and hardworking. We got these guys for CJ and Brunson? Pax is a moron. But we completely wasted any potential these players had. And we are starting to see why Pax was desperate to move Jalen. Desperate.
So in hindsight we made our team much worse, we are stuck with an extra year of a horrible contract (AD expires THIS year), JYD retired and could have been amnestied, and no way does VC tank it with AD and JYD here last year.
You also have to consider how VC's style of play immediately changed after that trade. Before he was actually playing hard at both ends and trying to do what KO wanted. After he started to play soft. I think Jalen was an influence there. And seeing AD get his way in a trade probably affected VC's tanking as well.
So maybe we arent' forced into a bad VC trade last year.
We sneak into the playoffs two years ago with AD/JYD under KO (very possible), and Grunwald keeps his job. How does that change our draft position and who we take? One thing affects everything that follows.
If we had hired Sam Mitchell (AD's guy) instead of KO then AD would never have demanded a trade to begin with.
Bottom line is that as of November 17,2005 that trade looks very, very bad for us.
At the time this CHI trade looked like a HUGE win for the Raps. We completely ripped off the Bulls. But our team was 8-8 with AD/JYD and could only win 25 of the final 66 games. Even a disgruntled AD was better for our team and he would have picked up his play if the club told him he wasn't going anywhere and we were in the playoff hunt.
Baxter and MasonJr were the pearls of the trade. Young and hardworking. We got these guys for CJ and Brunson? Pax is a moron. But we completely wasted any potential these players had. And we are starting to see why Pax was desperate to move Jalen. Desperate.
So in hindsight we made our team much worse, we are stuck with an extra year of a horrible contract (AD expires THIS year), JYD retired and could have been amnestied, and no way does VC tank it with AD and JYD here last year.
You also have to consider how VC's style of play immediately changed after that trade. Before he was actually playing hard at both ends and trying to do what KO wanted. After he started to play soft. I think Jalen was an influence there. And seeing AD get his way in a trade probably affected VC's tanking as well.
So maybe we arent' forced into a bad VC trade last year.
We sneak into the playoffs two years ago with AD/JYD under KO (very possible), and Grunwald keeps his job. How does that change our draft position and who we take? One thing affects everything that follows.
If we had hired Sam Mitchell (AD's guy) instead of KO then AD would never have demanded a trade to begin with.
Bottom line is that as of November 17,2005 that trade looks very, very bad for us.
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unless Antonio loved Sam more than his wife he still demands a trade.
not sure why theres "no way Vince would tank it with AD and JYD here". He would have wanted out regardless of what AD was doing imho. That team was going nowhere and AD absolutely sucked. And he never got along with Vince anyays (comments he made post trade, Vince chucking the ball at him lol)
and JYD might not have retired if he stayed. Wasn't his kid being in school up here part of the reason?
not sure why theres "no way Vince would tank it with AD and JYD here". He would have wanted out regardless of what AD was doing imho. That team was going nowhere and AD absolutely sucked. And he never got along with Vince anyays (comments he made post trade, Vince chucking the ball at him lol)
and JYD might not have retired if he stayed. Wasn't his kid being in school up here part of the reason?
At the time of that trade I was really excited to see the acquisitions of Rose, Marshall and to some extent Baxter. The only though part was losing a player in Jerome Williams, who without a doubt was the first Raptors player who really wanted to be with the Raptors and gave it his 100% night in and night out.
I remember looking at the trade and getting excited of seeing Rose and Carter playing together on the floor plus the addition of Marshall didn't hurt either. The last time that the Raptors had two talented shooting guards was when Carter and McGrady played together so the expectations were high that Rose and Carter played well and in turn produced wins.
I applaud Glen Grunwald for that particular trade – as well as others that he's made (acquiring Keon Clark and Chris Childs in earlier seasons). But for some reason the team could never take advantage and produce serious wins. Thinking about it, and looking at that roster, the team had Carter as the first scoring option, then Rose, and then Marshall. That's a pretty damn good team.
So essentially the trade was great, but at the end (due to team chemistry or there lack of) never really worked out. You could say it was the last straw before blowing this team up and starting the rebuilding process.
Looking at it today, did either team really benefit from the trade?
Sure Chicago got rid of Jalen and Toronto got rid of Davis, but as of today the only player remaining from that trade is Jalen Rose. Davis is in New York, Jerome is retired, Jefferies is out of the league, Marshall is in Cleveland, and Baxter in Houston.
So in reality this trade was a bad one for both teams as they were looking for the quick fix because as you can see none of those players (except Rose, for now) is in the team's plans for the future.
I remember looking at the trade and getting excited of seeing Rose and Carter playing together on the floor plus the addition of Marshall didn't hurt either. The last time that the Raptors had two talented shooting guards was when Carter and McGrady played together so the expectations were high that Rose and Carter played well and in turn produced wins.
I applaud Glen Grunwald for that particular trade – as well as others that he's made (acquiring Keon Clark and Chris Childs in earlier seasons). But for some reason the team could never take advantage and produce serious wins. Thinking about it, and looking at that roster, the team had Carter as the first scoring option, then Rose, and then Marshall. That's a pretty damn good team.
So essentially the trade was great, but at the end (due to team chemistry or there lack of) never really worked out. You could say it was the last straw before blowing this team up and starting the rebuilding process.
Looking at it today, did either team really benefit from the trade?
Sure Chicago got rid of Jalen and Toronto got rid of Davis, but as of today the only player remaining from that trade is Jalen Rose. Davis is in New York, Jerome is retired, Jefferies is out of the league, Marshall is in Cleveland, and Baxter in Houston.
So in reality this trade was a bad one for both teams as they were looking for the quick fix because as you can see none of those players (except Rose, for now) is in the team's plans for the future.
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Its good because we dropped JYD's contract.
Otherwise, I don't like it now. We have been extremely weak in the middle since.
Otherwise, I don't like it now. We have been extremely weak in the middle since.
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Baxster was not given a fair opportunity bu O'Niel.
Jefferies was horrid.
Jefferies was horrid.
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I'm not exactly sure why Grunwald's mismanagement over his tenure shouldn't include this - instead of receiving Rose and Marshall in return, why not look elsewhere for draft choices (although to be honest, this would've been a crapshoot given Grunwald's suspect judgment by and large in selecting through the draft)... Glen is a nice person from all accounts, but under his stewardship, the team more often than not had the wherewithal to make it to the playoffs, but lacked the proper components to make a serious run @ the championship (w/ the exception possibly of the conference finals that one year) - it appeared from this vantage point that he sought immediate gratification (i.e. short-term winning) w/o properly acknowledging what future considerations lay ahead... Look @ what Joe Dumars has done in Detroit since assuming those duties - slowly, but surely he's amassed the pieces he believes are integral in constructing a viable championship contender, not just a playoff entrant... Shrewd trades and building through the draft (e.g. Tayshaun Prince)...ballocks said:
Having lived in Atlanta while Lenny was coach down there, I couldn't fathom why Grunwald would import him into Toronto - didn't he understand that the mediocrity the Hawks have suffered partly was b/c Lenny's ineptitude? The game passed him by as it did Olajuwon and Grunwald still solicited their services like a starstruck fanboy...
That's Bull.madman said:
That first five games was fools gold. After that the league figured out the Raps for the one-trick pony they were. Soft in the middle and weak on D everywhere. That club sucked. They surprised a few teams who had no opportunity to scout them. Then it was all downhill. Healthiest year for VC in a long time. Similar to this years team that can score but not stop anyone. Both teams were down by 20 in most games.
Chicago clearly won the trade in the end. They got rid of Rose which was priority number 1. They brought in two character bigs who helped turned the franchise around last year and get them into the playoffs. And now they are about to have huge cap space to add the final pieces to their team while we are stuck with Jalen. That's a win.
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