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Marbury Needs to Be Dealt!
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i disagree , for 3 reasons.
1.at this point you would be getting pennies on the dollar as far as his talent and production. the knicks are not at a point where they can lose trades , just because of glitches or conflicts , any trade the knicks make have to help them.
2. stephon is by far the best pg on the team and really the only guy LB even remotely trusts, if he trusted crawford or nate to run the team it would be different , JC i think will eventually be able to run the team like brown wants but he isn't there yet, i am not sure nate could ever be more than a travis best for LB.
3.he is the most consistent offensive player on the perimeter , without him the team which already looks bad on offense would look much worse.
1.at this point you would be getting pennies on the dollar as far as his talent and production. the knicks are not at a point where they can lose trades , just because of glitches or conflicts , any trade the knicks make have to help them.
2. stephon is by far the best pg on the team and really the only guy LB even remotely trusts, if he trusted crawford or nate to run the team it would be different , JC i think will eventually be able to run the team like brown wants but he isn't there yet, i am not sure nate could ever be more than a travis best for LB.
3.he is the most consistent offensive player on the perimeter , without him the team which already looks bad on offense would look much worse.
Wake up and smell the coffeee....
Trading Marbury is adition by subtraction. LB doesn't trust Marbury...hates his game....hates his attitude...and realizes (just like ANY sharp Bball mind) that Marbury will lead this team nowhere. Can he flourish on a different team? Absolutely. Will said team flourish as well? There is no historical evidence to support that thought. I have said all along that our guards are not Bball smart and it has been proven time and again on the court. Since no team EVER wins a title with low IQ players, it is safe to say that we need an upgrade at the 1 and 2. Keep hoping, though, guys.....
I would trade SM for some combination of shorter contracts, young talent at the 1, 2, or 3, and/or picks.
Trading Marbury is adition by subtraction. LB doesn't trust Marbury...hates his game....hates his attitude...and realizes (just like ANY sharp Bball mind) that Marbury will lead this team nowhere. Can he flourish on a different team? Absolutely. Will said team flourish as well? There is no historical evidence to support that thought. I have said all along that our guards are not Bball smart and it has been proven time and again on the court. Since no team EVER wins a title with low IQ players, it is safe to say that we need an upgrade at the 1 and 2. Keep hoping, though, guys.....
I would trade SM for some combination of shorter contracts, young talent at the 1, 2, or 3, and/or picks.
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Re: Wake up and smell the coffeee....
what i dont understand is why does marbury have to lead or not be a part of a team , there is a heck of alot of difference between the 2 and there is a lot of room on a team that needs scoring for him. i believe his ideal role is as a #2 guy who provides extra scoring punch, there isn't a guy on the knicks who is ready to put him in that position, he is still by far the best player so having him take a backseat weakens the team offensively ...look no further than the 1st 9 games of the season for proof on that , the last 2 games in particular, he didn't look to score and looked primarily to get other players off and there was no one else to match the exploits of guys like melo camby and kobe.
i look forward to the day when the knicks are not considered a marbury show , and that day is coming. i could easily see a starting line up of curry , frye , ariza JC and marbury has as much offensive punch potentially as the team brown just left in detriot, plus there is more offense on the bench in Q lee robinson, and mo, but it will take time to even get back to the offensive level of the knicks of even last season which were an avg. team on offense.
marbury has some flaws still , he isn't as mentally tough as i'd like him to be, but skillwise he is still way too important and as the team moves more in what i believe to be jamal's and LB's direction he'll have to adapt, but he still needs to be a knick if only because he is the only guy who you can say will be able to consistently give good offensive results.
larry brown trust no one on the team to run it but marbury and he has good reason to be this way , nate isn't a point guard , there is no other way to put it , he'll be a good player a defensive disrupter, a good shooter and great penetrator eventually, but i cant see him ever sitting back and working solely in the best interest of facilitating offense for other players. JC is in my opinion coming along , but he isn't ready to run the team like brown wants it , he has been running the team when the bench has made some big runs but usually it happens in spite of him , or because he was scoring , not because he is running the team so well, he can do it , but brown seems to very specific and jc is further away than marbury at providing what brown wants. marbury is a player right now who is only 2nd to frye in his understanding of how to operate in brown's offense and with marbury its still a struggle.
alphadog said:
what i dont understand is why does marbury have to lead or not be a part of a team , there is a heck of alot of difference between the 2 and there is a lot of room on a team that needs scoring for him. i believe his ideal role is as a #2 guy who provides extra scoring punch, there isn't a guy on the knicks who is ready to put him in that position, he is still by far the best player so having him take a backseat weakens the team offensively ...look no further than the 1st 9 games of the season for proof on that , the last 2 games in particular, he didn't look to score and looked primarily to get other players off and there was no one else to match the exploits of guys like melo camby and kobe.
i look forward to the day when the knicks are not considered a marbury show , and that day is coming. i could easily see a starting line up of curry , frye , ariza JC and marbury has as much offensive punch potentially as the team brown just left in detriot, plus there is more offense on the bench in Q lee robinson, and mo, but it will take time to even get back to the offensive level of the knicks of even last season which were an avg. team on offense.
marbury has some flaws still , he isn't as mentally tough as i'd like him to be, but skillwise he is still way too important and as the team moves more in what i believe to be jamal's and LB's direction he'll have to adapt, but he still needs to be a knick if only because he is the only guy who you can say will be able to consistently give good offensive results.
larry brown trust no one on the team to run it but marbury and he has good reason to be this way , nate isn't a point guard , there is no other way to put it , he'll be a good player a defensive disrupter, a good shooter and great penetrator eventually, but i cant see him ever sitting back and working solely in the best interest of facilitating offense for other players. JC is in my opinion coming along , but he isn't ready to run the team like brown wants it , he has been running the team when the bench has made some big runs but usually it happens in spite of him , or because he was scoring , not because he is running the team so well, he can do it , but brown seems to very specific and jc is further away than marbury at providing what brown wants. marbury is a player right now who is only 2nd to frye in his understanding of how to operate in brown's offense and with marbury its still a struggle.
Ah.....
but LB does NOT trust Marbury either, else he would not have had his butt nailed to the bench vs Denver. If you watch with open eyes(not meant as an insult) you can clearly see that Marbury does not want to be a supporting player....he wants the limelight. That's why he was so dejected after the LA loss. He saw Kobe run amok and figured it looked like a good gig. Trouble is, SM is not Kobe...not even close. Marbury is a great penetrating and finishing guard but only a mediocre perimter shooter. Despite his current numbers, if you have him play off the ball (which a 2 guard does), his % will drop as he will feel like he has to shoot more and has little judgement as to when.
Just a serious question.....as a 2, who do you think he will resemble? Francis? Thats about as close as I can come and I'll pass on that one.
peace
but LB does NOT trust Marbury either, else he would not have had his butt nailed to the bench vs Denver. If you watch with open eyes(not meant as an insult) you can clearly see that Marbury does not want to be a supporting player....he wants the limelight. That's why he was so dejected after the LA loss. He saw Kobe run amok and figured it looked like a good gig. Trouble is, SM is not Kobe...not even close. Marbury is a great penetrating and finishing guard but only a mediocre perimter shooter. Despite his current numbers, if you have him play off the ball (which a 2 guard does), his % will drop as he will feel like he has to shoot more and has little judgement as to when.
Just a serious question.....as a 2, who do you think he will resemble? Francis? Thats about as close as I can come and I'll pass on that one.
peace
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Re: Wake up and smell the coffeee....
Grinch, your points are valid if it weren't that Marbury poses himself as such a negative energy for the team. Last year Kurt wanted to crack his skull, he told Wilkens to shove his criticisms of Steph's D, he massaged his way through practice, and now "the best pg" doesn't even want to play the position if he's not free to get into one-on-one scoring duels.
These things take a toll on teams and destroy whatever fragile chemistry coaches have tried to establish throughout all these personnel changes, and I believe the tenuous chemistry is in large part to blame for some of our more passive, woeful, and gutless stretches we've had during Marbury's reign here.
In short, if Steph can ever find a way to put his ego and needs second to those of the team he might be an asset, but it's 10 years and counting now. When, oh when will this come?
And that's all before the fact I think he's a quintessential "tweener": a guy with skills enough to play two positions relatively well, but not pure enough to really settle into and own any single position.
Steph will always be a good player, but never a dominant player, IMHO. So whay put up with all the negative energy and distractions? Are 20 ppg players on bad teams really that hard to come by?
Grinch, your points are valid if it weren't that Marbury poses himself as such a negative energy for the team. Last year Kurt wanted to crack his skull, he told Wilkens to shove his criticisms of Steph's D, he massaged his way through practice, and now "the best pg" doesn't even want to play the position if he's not free to get into one-on-one scoring duels.
These things take a toll on teams and destroy whatever fragile chemistry coaches have tried to establish throughout all these personnel changes, and I believe the tenuous chemistry is in large part to blame for some of our more passive, woeful, and gutless stretches we've had during Marbury's reign here.
In short, if Steph can ever find a way to put his ego and needs second to those of the team he might be an asset, but it's 10 years and counting now. When, oh when will this come?
And that's all before the fact I think he's a quintessential "tweener": a guy with skills enough to play two positions relatively well, but not pure enough to really settle into and own any single position.
Steph will always be a good player, but never a dominant player, IMHO. So whay put up with all the negative energy and distractions? Are 20 ppg players on bad teams really that hard to come by?
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Re: Wake up and smell the coffeee....
1st it was he'd never relent control of the offense enough to be a 2 guard...despite his claims that all he wants to do is win and he doesn't care how it comes about, i remember some slights at steve nash about how you can avg. 15 and be an mvp candidate, this was about the same time as the "best pg" comment which you know full well you are using out of context.
now its he wants to play 2 guard too much so he can score.
i dont think stephon was ever the player people tried to pigeonhole him to be at least not in new york, at 1st he was actually getting criticism for passing too much(remember the 1st couple of months?) when he 1st got to new york....now its that he wants to shoot too much.
i think he simply wants to be involved in winning and when they aren't winning having a diminished impact grates on him because he feels he can change that by being more agressive in pursuit of shots, but thats not LB's plan for him yet because jamal and nate cant take the pg burden consistently or he doesn't trust them to. he scored alot today and the knicks offense didn't have a problem with or without him out there , thats how it is supposed to be.
he obviously trust marbury the most because he is playing him 40 minutes a game, primarily at pg he may not give him his full trust but its certainly more than anyone else, especially at pg.
Larry brown said he wanted marbury at the 2 before marbury did , they sold him on it and now he cant wait especially since they are losing with his role in flux...this isn't a selfish argument its one of patience, of which marbury isn't showing enough.
the knicks chemistry looks fine to me actually it looks great, at least on defense and defensive chemistry is what did the knicks in last season and if steph was the problem on offense they could cut him minutes significantly without a problem on defense at all, in fact it would leave him fresher so the defense would probably be better.
marbury also had a problem with tim thomas too last season , we dont know the intimate details of their squabbles so how can you convict marbury as scapegoat is beyond me, all i know is they are gone and the knicks team hasn't been tighter in years.
stephon marbury is not a problem for this knick team , he is one of the solutions.
the steph criticisms take on lifes all of their own.son of oakley said:
1st it was he'd never relent control of the offense enough to be a 2 guard...despite his claims that all he wants to do is win and he doesn't care how it comes about, i remember some slights at steve nash about how you can avg. 15 and be an mvp candidate, this was about the same time as the "best pg" comment which you know full well you are using out of context.
now its he wants to play 2 guard too much so he can score.
i dont think stephon was ever the player people tried to pigeonhole him to be at least not in new york, at 1st he was actually getting criticism for passing too much(remember the 1st couple of months?) when he 1st got to new york....now its that he wants to shoot too much.
i think he simply wants to be involved in winning and when they aren't winning having a diminished impact grates on him because he feels he can change that by being more agressive in pursuit of shots, but thats not LB's plan for him yet because jamal and nate cant take the pg burden consistently or he doesn't trust them to. he scored alot today and the knicks offense didn't have a problem with or without him out there , thats how it is supposed to be.
he obviously trust marbury the most because he is playing him 40 minutes a game, primarily at pg he may not give him his full trust but its certainly more than anyone else, especially at pg.
Larry brown said he wanted marbury at the 2 before marbury did , they sold him on it and now he cant wait especially since they are losing with his role in flux...this isn't a selfish argument its one of patience, of which marbury isn't showing enough.
the knicks chemistry looks fine to me actually it looks great, at least on defense and defensive chemistry is what did the knicks in last season and if steph was the problem on offense they could cut him minutes significantly without a problem on defense at all, in fact it would leave him fresher so the defense would probably be better.
marbury also had a problem with tim thomas too last season , we dont know the intimate details of their squabbles so how can you convict marbury as scapegoat is beyond me, all i know is they are gone and the knicks team hasn't been tighter in years.
stephon marbury is not a problem for this knick team , he is one of the solutions.
Grinch....
Go back and read some of the quotes from Steph. Read how he looked forward to being a 2 so he could have the green lightlike AI. You are the one twisting quotes. Yes, people questioned how much he passed when he first got to NY BUT....what was he scoring...like 8 or something? I remember full well the Clev. game soon after he arrived. He was just trying to fit in....remember he was the new guy. He can score 20 just fine under LB even as a PG...the problem is that he can't understand how to do it. Also, the reason LB wants him at the 2 isn't because he is so dynamic there, its because he can't play pg the way Brown wants and he has a huge contract (meaning he isn't going to be sat down so another can play). Your logic about how he feels he can help the team win by taking more shots is ludicrous...he shoots a far less % than either Frye or Curry. If he was so concerned about winning, wouldn't he find a way to get them the ball more? Anytime a career 43% shooter says he can help the team win more by shooting more than the 50+% shooters on your team, you know you are being sold a bill of goods. A player truly concerned with the team is always looking to get the best shot available no matter who is taking it, ala Nash. Do you really mean to tell me that you believe SM would be happy averaging 8 and 5 if he was doing a great job of running the team and they were winning?
Go back and read some of the quotes from Steph. Read how he looked forward to being a 2 so he could have the green lightlike AI. You are the one twisting quotes. Yes, people questioned how much he passed when he first got to NY BUT....what was he scoring...like 8 or something? I remember full well the Clev. game soon after he arrived. He was just trying to fit in....remember he was the new guy. He can score 20 just fine under LB even as a PG...the problem is that he can't understand how to do it. Also, the reason LB wants him at the 2 isn't because he is so dynamic there, its because he can't play pg the way Brown wants and he has a huge contract (meaning he isn't going to be sat down so another can play). Your logic about how he feels he can help the team win by taking more shots is ludicrous...he shoots a far less % than either Frye or Curry. If he was so concerned about winning, wouldn't he find a way to get them the ball more? Anytime a career 43% shooter says he can help the team win more by shooting more than the 50+% shooters on your team, you know you are being sold a bill of goods. A player truly concerned with the team is always looking to get the best shot available no matter who is taking it, ala Nash. Do you really mean to tell me that you believe SM would be happy averaging 8 and 5 if he was doing a great job of running the team and they were winning?
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Re: Ah.....
as i said to Son of oak i dont see it as selfishness issue i see this as impatience issue, steph was sold on a plan and now Brown is basically stalling on the implimentation of it , for good reason imo , but steph is having a problem nontheless.
right now he is the vet force with the ball, and he is guiding younger players along , and that is not ideal for him, and its showing, but he is still well liked you can see it in the games , he is not the albatross you and son of oak are making him out to be , in fact on that west coast trip there have only been statements of team harmony despite the losing, how its actually helped the team get closer.
as a 2 i think a lower level AI/wade mix is what marbury would be , i think marbury would take out the lower level if he were to answer honestly what he thought, marbury is a guy who seems to desperately wants to be thought more of and he seems to think 2 guard is a way to do that because his team may win more taking advantage of his scoring ability and leaving the distribution primarily to others .
francis is a bad comparison , steve was a 2 guard for his whole life and as a pro he was force fed the 1 spot he never played it before even in college, the lithuaniun guy who is tinsley's backup with the pacers was the pg in maryland.
marbury will play the 2 just like he played pg (pick and roll , isolate and bull rush smaller pg's), except those pass modes he went through will come along less frequently its not like teams will have an easier time putting true 2 guards on him , he is too quick, especially if they set picks for him. and with frye he will be even more deadly , teams are letting him shoot now but they way he is hitting they will have to rethink that, which means marbury will have things open up for him more, making him a better player and more effective scorer. he isn't like crawford who still makes mistakes in driving into places there is no way he can be bailed out of , if there is one thing marbury knows how to do its score.
LB choose to go another direction in the denver game , marbury isn't a kobe or a t-mac where you have to play him or they question you and your common sense especially when the backup have shown such an ability in this young season affect the game on occasion.alphadog said:
as i said to Son of oak i dont see it as selfishness issue i see this as impatience issue, steph was sold on a plan and now Brown is basically stalling on the implimentation of it , for good reason imo , but steph is having a problem nontheless.
right now he is the vet force with the ball, and he is guiding younger players along , and that is not ideal for him, and its showing, but he is still well liked you can see it in the games , he is not the albatross you and son of oak are making him out to be , in fact on that west coast trip there have only been statements of team harmony despite the losing, how its actually helped the team get closer.
as a 2 i think a lower level AI/wade mix is what marbury would be , i think marbury would take out the lower level if he were to answer honestly what he thought, marbury is a guy who seems to desperately wants to be thought more of and he seems to think 2 guard is a way to do that because his team may win more taking advantage of his scoring ability and leaving the distribution primarily to others .
francis is a bad comparison , steve was a 2 guard for his whole life and as a pro he was force fed the 1 spot he never played it before even in college, the lithuaniun guy who is tinsley's backup with the pacers was the pg in maryland.
marbury will play the 2 just like he played pg (pick and roll , isolate and bull rush smaller pg's), except those pass modes he went through will come along less frequently its not like teams will have an easier time putting true 2 guards on him , he is too quick, especially if they set picks for him. and with frye he will be even more deadly , teams are letting him shoot now but they way he is hitting they will have to rethink that, which means marbury will have things open up for him more, making him a better player and more effective scorer. he isn't like crawford who still makes mistakes in driving into places there is no way he can be bailed out of , if there is one thing marbury knows how to do its score.
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