[SoupMan32]

Has anyone read the article that Marty Burns wrote on www.cnnsi.com ?

It is about Reinsdorf and Sterling being too cheap to spend money on star players.

I think someone needs to tell this guys whats up. I have no clue about Sterling, but I feel he is wrong about Reinsdorf. what is everyones thoughts about this article?

 

[BCH]

Reinsdorf has only really ponied up the cash for one man. And he told him he hoped he hadn't made a mistake after the deal was done.

I wouldn't put him in the Sterling category yet, but Reinsdorf severely screwed over Phil Jackson during negotiations, he tried to backdoor Grant by going behind his agents back, and he refused to renegotiate with Pippen during the years Pippen was severely underpaid. Did Pippen get a good deal when he left the Bulls? Yeah but it didn't have to be that way. Reinsdorf should have and could have paid him while he was a Bull.

 

[Dr. Kerr]

The pippen issue is unfair to management.

Pippen wanted security. He wanted the long term deal.

If pippen was injured or became a bust, would he have re-negoatiated his contract for less?

All players have to weigh his options. Short term contracts give players flexibility and the potential to hit the big payday, but a big injury may ruin that. Long term contracts bring security.

Pippen made his choice.

I think Reinsdorf's reputation has more to do with his dealings as the ownew of the White Sox. But supposedely part of it has to do with the low attendence Comisky Park gets.

Did he really screw Phil?

 

[BCH]

I think the Bulls took advantage of what they knew about Pippen. Is it a sound business decision? I guess but sometimes the right thing needs to be done. Not paying Pippen was a travesty, and even when Pippen said he would never wear a Bulls uni again, he did and he was an integral part in every championship.

Magic Johnson signed a huge longterm deal with the Lakers for life, I think it was something like $1M a year for 25 years. Now I could be mistaken but I am quite sure he got to renegotiate that deal as he should have.

I think it is a fair criticism.

As for PJ, he really played some hardball with him when it was not necessary.

 

[Songcycle]

Magic $25 mil contract was renegotiated but even if the Bulls wanted to renegotiate with Pippen, it was against NBA rules and all they could have done was extend the contract. Pippen was rge 2nd highest paid player in the NBA the dirst year of his contract, he made more than Jordan and Pippen is the one that wanted a long term front loaded contract. Phil Jackson turned down multi years contracts more than once that would have made him the highest paid coach in the NBA and he was was one of the top 2 or 3 highest paid coaches when he left of his own choosing. Toni Kukoc got a big money contract when he signed which is what set Pippen off and Rodman was highly paid.

 

[Louie]

Marty Burns is an idiot.

Reinsdorf is shrewd, not cheap. He and Krause knew what they were undertaking when they decided to rebuild. If anything he should be praised as an owner. He seems to have assembled one of the few organizations that is actually committed to winning titles and willing to take risks to do it. There are too many teams nowadays that are content just to field a winning team and make the playoffs, but the Bulls have built a team that at the very least has championship talent. Everyone was pissed when the dynasty broke up, but i'm sure there was fault on both sides of that. I guarantee Reinsdorf will caugh it up when he needs to resign these guys.

 

[ScottVdub]

I think many basketball players are idiots. The owner isnt cheap if he offers a contract that isnt worth as much as the player is worth, the player is just an idiot to sign it. If you have a problem with your contract you shouldnt have signed it in the first place, and the player should have no right to hold out for a new contract because he agreed to the terms and put his signature on it, THATS THERE OWN FAULT!!!

 

[BamaBull]

Call me "old school"

"he refused to renegotiate with Pippen during the years Pippen was severely underpaid"

ONE day, this sort of mentality towards salaries is gonna have to change.....maybe its too late.

this is CERTAINLY part of what is wrong with professional sports today. What would happen if we, as workers, after having agreed upon a salary from OUR employers, decided one day, we felt we were not getting what we really should be getting, in our minds???

go in friday morning and say..."Okay boss, I know I agreed to work for $15 per hour, but I feel I am worth more than that now, especially when this other government agency is paying their workers $20 an hour. Unless you equal my salary to that, I am walking out!"

Do U know what your bosses' response would be?..yeah.."Don't let the door hit you in the *** on the way out!"...and in the same sentence, "get me personnel and a new body in here." IF WE or ANYONE in life agree to a specified salary, then, we and ANYONE else, should live up to THAT agreement and then when that contract is up, THEN re-negotiate.

Unless the NBA along with every other major sport wants to have the same immediate future of major league baseball, they better quit cawdling these thugs most people call professional basketball players...good example?.......IVERSON! granted this is an EXTREME example, but for the most part, you get what I mean, right?

another way to look at this whole scenario is...whose team is it? whoever has the booty gets to make the rules, right?:yes:

Kerr, louie and scottvdub...I think we are in agreement.

 

[Louie]

Completely in agreement. I don't think any basketball players can be considered underpaid when they make millions per year, so they should all shut mouths about being paid fairly.

 

[BCH]

If that is the case, then everyone should shut their piehole when a player leaves to earn more cash. If it is just a business then the player should always go where he makes the most money. Screw loyalty to a team and loyalty from a team to its players. You can't eat your cake and have it to.

 

[BamaBull]

How much is enough?

Originally posted by BCH
If that is the case, then everyone should shut their piehole when a player leaves to earn more cash. If it is just a business then the player should always go where he makes the most money. Screw loyalty to a team and loyalty from a team to its players. You can't eat your cake and have it to.

I agree with you that it IS just a business, but my point is, it wasn't always like that. Just as an example that I know of, notwithstanding what anyone might think of ken Griffey, he took LESS money to play with a team in cincinnati. THIS type of behavior in professional athletes is darn near non-existent. The fact that it is a business is proof that there will never be dynasties unless you can acquire at least two superstars and be fortunate enough to get "quality" players who are willing to be support or role players, at a cheap price.

 

[BCH]

Ok. Then whether JWill says he wants to play for the Bulls is irrelevant. He will get paid as the number 2 pick. Whether Craford keeps his watch to Seattle time is irrelevant. Brand had said he wanted to play for the Bulls and help them rebuild. he never said anything different. Krause called him a cornerstone. He was quickly traded. When the time comes, I don't want to read anything about loyalties or how players owe their team anything other than collecting a paycheck. When a big game comes up and a player decides he doesn't want to play hurt and risk his future, I want everyone to remember it is a business and a player has to look out for himself.

 

[Kneepad]

I think it needs to be pointed out that everything being discussed in this thread, and a good deal that hasn't been mentioned, is all part of the Collective Bargaining Agreement which is mutually agreed upon by both players and management. This includes teams having the right to trade players to other teams as they see fit for whatever reason they see fit, and for players to qualify as free agents and sign with whichever team they choose for whatever reason they choose. That part of it is all business. When was the last time you saw a player or team hurt their own interests in the name of loyalty?

I don't know of a single fan who would not be in favor of both players and management simply living up to contracts signed. Like someone alluded to previously (I think it was Dr. Kerr), both sides roll the dice to an extent when a contract is signed. Yes, Pippen got the short end of the stick as it turned out because he was overly fearful of a career ending injury and instead his career skyrocketed. On the contrary, the Orlando Magic are currently holding the short end of the stick on Grant Hill's contract. Have any of us heard any cries that Hill should renegotiate his contract because he hasn't been able to live up to his end of the deal? BCH, doesn't "sometimes the right thing need to be done?" No. The contract was signed with both parties understanding the full ramifications. You win some, you lose some.

 

[Songcycle]

BamaBull, I agree with your point, but it is very important to remember that Pippen's groaning and moaning started 2 or 3 years before the Bull's could have legally done anything to extend his contract, even if they wanted to and renegotiating was and is forbidden by the NBA.

 

[BCH]

Originally posted by Kneepad
I think it needs to be pointed out that everything being discussed in this thread, and a good deal that hasn't been mentioned, is all part of the Collective Bargaining Agreement which is mutually agreed upon by both players and management. This includes teams having the right to trade players to other teams as they see fit for whatever reason they see fit, and for players to qualify as free agents and sign with whichever team they choose for whatever reason they choose. That part of it is all business. When was the last time you saw a player or team hurt their own interests in the name of loyalty?

I don't know of a single fan who would not be in favor of both players and management simply living up to contracts signed. Like someone alluded to previously (I think it was Dr. Kerr), both sides roll the dice to an extent when a contract is signed. Yes, Pippen got the short end of the stick as it turned out because he was overly fearful of a career ending injury and instead his career skyrocketed. On the contrary, the Orlando Magic are currently holding the short end of the stick on Grant Hill's contract. Have any of us heard any cries that Hill should renegotiate his contract because he hasn't been able to live up to his end of the deal? BCH, doesn't "sometimes the right thing need to be done?" No. The contract was signed with both parties understanding the full ramifications. You win some, you lose some.

I am not saying it can't or that it isn't this way. I am saying that people cannot expect a sense of loyalty from players. Grant Hill is in the very situation he is in now because he had loyalty to the Pistons and he played on an ankle he should not have. Again, last season he tried to come back too fast with 7 hours a day of court work to make his comback. So do I see Hill's salary as justified? Absolutely.

All I am saying is that people need to remember their stance they are taking here when it comes time for players to decide if they are going to stay or not. Also, that in the end it is just a business to most people and if JWill says he wants to be a Bull it might have more to do with local Chicago endorsements and being the number 2 pick rather than wanting to be an actual Chicago Bull. After all, he could very well just be a shrewd businessman.

My point is there is good faith dealings and bad faith dealings. Reinsdorf is notoriously a bad faith dealer. What is being forgotten is how he tried to take advantage of Grant by trying to negotiate with him one on one without his agent. That is deplorable. Ranting and Raving after grant wisened up and got his agent involved, talking about a verbal agreement made it even worse.

The reality is, it is a shade of grey and one's actions taint the perception of all of their other actions. Bad Faith dealings on Reinsdorf's part has contributed to the idea that he will not pay for it.

He told MJ that he hoped he wouldn't regret paying him that final contract. For what MJ gave to the Bulls prior to that, even if MJ went down the very first game and never played again, it would have been money worth spending ad money well spent.

 

[Kneepad]

Originally posted by BCH
Grant Hill is in the very situation he is in now because he had loyalty to the Pistons and he played on an ankle he should not have. Again, last season he tried to come back too fast with 7 hours a day of court work to make his comback. So do I see Hill's salary as justified? Absolutely.

Grant Hill is perhaps not the best example since his ineffectiveness was due to legitimate injury. How about Juwan Howard? Do you think the Wizards feel they got a fair shake in that contract? Obviously MJ didn't as he dumped him as fast as he could. You think the Knicks are still happy about having to pay Allan Houston $100M? Shawn Kemp? I bet I could name at least 2 dozen more players off the top of my head who are seriously overpaid and who's teams would love to renegotiate their contracts.

Originally posted by BCH
All I am saying is that people need to remember their stance they are taking here when it comes time for players to decide if they are going to stay or not.

I have skimmed back through the previous posts and am not finding any post where anyone took the stance that players are or should be loyal to teams. Could be you are preaching to the choir?

Originally posted by BCH
Also, that in the end it is just a business to most people and if JWill says he wants to be a Bull it might have more to do with local Chicago endorsements and being the number 2 pick rather than wanting to be an actual Chicago Bull. After all, he could very well just be a shrewd businessman.

I'm sure all that factored into it. But I think the point is all that stuff was there for TMac, Hill, Eddie Jones, Tim Thomas, etc. and it wasn't enough, was it. JWill has stated that he's a city boy, yes. But I think the Bulls on-court potential also has a lot to do with him wanting to come here. He spoke highly of BC, JK, and his future teammates. Players way underestimate the value of being part of a winning organization-- JWill's comments would seem to indicate that he has identified the Bulls as a team on the rise and wanted to be part of it.

Originally posted by BCH
My point is there is good faith dealings and bad faith dealings. Reinsdorf is notoriously a bad faith dealer. What is being forgotten is how he tried to take advantage of Grant by trying to negotiate with him one on one without his agent. That is deplorable. Ranting and Raving after grant wisened up and got his agent involved, talking about a verbal agreement made it even worse.

He told MJ that he hoped he wouldn't regret paying him that final contract.

I agree that the Grant dealings were shady. But one instance does not make JR a "notorious bad faith dealer". Do you have any other instances to cite? And please don't trot out Antonio Davis.

As for MJ, JR has admitted regretting his choice of words, and insists it was not intended in the manner in which Jordan took it. It was meant to be a light hearted, off-the-cuff comment that obviously would have been better left unsaid. But JR has subsuquently said that his words at that time were not indicative of how he felt. He simply misspoke. Wouldn't you agree that the fact he gave Jordan the contract he deserved speaks louder than one off-the-cuff comment?

 

[BCH]

Grant Hill is the example you provided. His original injury came about because of his loyalty to the team. Last season was missed again due to the loyalty to his team. He tried to play to what he was paid. You bring up Juwan Howard and you honestly do not know what you are talking about. Juwan Howard wanted a long term deal when he signed as a Rookie. The Wizards, Abe Pollin, lowballed him and gave him the contract that allowed him to become a FA. When the league ruled that Miami had tampered and the Wizards were given a second shot at signing Howard, they did so at his market value at the time for that CBA. The problem came when right after he signed a new CBA came into effect. Shawn Kemp was in the same boat. Apples and oranges.

I also decided to expand the boundaries of this thread because of past comments that have been made. I am not accusing anyone of saying anything, but I am making sure they understand what they are saying by presenting the issue in its full scope.

As for JWill's comments and his sincerity, I am not doubting his sincerity. But I also did not doubt Brand's sincerity or Krause's sincerity. Obviously someone wasn't saying how they really felt.

I did not bring up AD because that is more Krause's baby than Reinsdorf. I also did not bring up how Reinsdorf berated PJs agent during negotiations, or the fact that he does take over these High level negotiations because of his negotiating style.

I don't give Reinsdorf credit for signing MJ, that was the easy part. The hard part were retaining those around him. I find it highly doubtful that Reinsdorf did not understand the full weight of his words at that critical juncture. It is extremely unlikely he got to where he is now by allowing himself to make critical errors of judgement like that. He knew what he was saying in my opinion.

 

[Kneepad]

Originally posted by BCH
Juwan Howard wanted a long term deal when he signed as a Rookie. ... When...the Wizards were given a second shot at signing Howard, they did so at his market value at the time for that CBA. The problem came when right after he signed a new CBA came into effect. Shawn Kemp was in the same boat. Apples and oranges.

I understand the Howard situation. I don't quite see it as apples and oranges because the same logic can be applied to Pippen only in reverse. When Pip signed his contract, the salary cap was much lower than it was a year or two later or whenever it was the NBA signed their new TV deal with NBC. Pip was in part a victim of circumstances-- just as were the Wizards with Howard and the Sonics with Kemp.

Originally posted by BCH
I also decided to expand the boundaries of this thread because of past comments that have been made. I am not accusing anyone of saying anything, but I am making sure they understand what they are saying by presenting the issue in its full scope.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by BCH
As for JWill's comments and his sincerity, I am not doubting his sincerity. But I also did not doubt Brand's sincerity or Krause's sincerity. Obviously someone wasn't saying how they really felt.

If you don't doubt JWill's sincerity, then why make an issue out of it in the first place?

It's not such a black and white issue, BCH. At the time Krause made the comments about Brand, I'm pretty sure they were sincere comments and that he didn't have any intention of trading him. Didn't Jordan ever comment favorably about C. Alexander? I know Don Nelson did after trading for him on draft night. But you never know what opportunities might present themselves. It's either never comment about players to the media, or risk having to occasionally go back on what you said. Is there a GM in the league who didn't just recently gush about their top draft pick? So that means none of them will ever be traded?

Originally posted by BCH
I also did not bring up how Reinsdorf berated PJs agent during negotiations, or the fact that he does take over these High level negotiations because of his negotiating style.

Have you ever heard Todd Musberger comment publicly on the Phil Jackson negotiations? He's a complete tool. He's constantly playing the martyr role, as if PJ is God's gift to the NBA and its fans and the Bulls should bow down at the altar of Phil. I'm a huge Phil fan, but I've never heard any agent have such an overblown opinion of his client-- and that's saying a lot in this day and age.

How do you justify that comment when PJ was the highest paid coach (who wasn't also a GM) for his last couple of contracts? (I forget the specifics of exactly which contract made him the highest paid). The nature of negotiations is to avoid paying any more than is necessary. It's an unpleasant but necessary side of professional sports.

Originally posted by BCH
I find it highly doubtful that Reinsdorf did not understand the full weight of his words at that critical juncture. It is extremely unlikely he got to where he is now by allowing himself to make critical errors of judgement like that. He knew what he was saying in my opinion.

That would seem to be self-contradictory. JR didn't get to where he is by making critical errors in judgement like that, yet he knew what he was saying by making that comment as opposed to it being a simple slip of the tongue? What possible reason would JR have for intentionally making such a comment?

 

[BCH]

I understand that his comments may seem like a contradiction but where I can conclude that he is unlikely to make a mistake like that, I do not have an understanding of him to deduce why he would make a comment like that. That is my point. He admitted according to you that it was off the cuff but that does not seem likely considering who he is. Would it be logical that he did it to piss MJ off and ensure the demise of the Bulls? You be the judge.

As for Krause's comments on Brand, they had special meaning. Especially when Brand was touted as a cornerstone. You are right that every GM is going to gush over their picks, but Krause went out of his way to tout Brand's abilities and his character.

I will leave the Musberger situation alone. I don't think that Musberger's actions necessitate the treatment he received from JR, but I agree that Jackson was well paid, though given no security.