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The Snake
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I did a lot of thinking last night in my insomniac state and one thing I considered is why many people including myself suggest we trade away Crawford, Curry, or Chandler. I realized all 3 have been injured or inconsistent and all 3 lack some important qualities in their game, but then I got to thinking about the core groups(4 best players) of some other teams.

Boston(Welsch/Pierce/Davis/Mihm)
Miami(Wade/Jones/Butler/Odom)
New Jersey(Kidd/Jefferson/Martin/Collins)
New York(Marbury/Houston/Van Horn/Thomas)
Orlando(Lue/McGrady/Gooden/Howard)
Philadelphia(Snow/Iverson/Robinson/Coleman)
Washington(Arenas/Hughes/Stackhouse/Hayes)

Atlanta(Terry/Diaw/SAR/Ratliff)
Cleveland(James/Wagner/Boozer/Diop)
Detroit(Billups/Hamilton/Prince/Wallace)
Indiana(Miller/Artest/O'Neal/Harrington)
Milwaukee(Ford/Redd/Thomas/Kukoc)
New Orleans(Davis/Mashburn/Brown/Magloire)
Toronto(Carter/Rose/Bosh/Marshall)

Now if we take Hinrich/Crawford/Curry/Chandler and match them up against those 4 we'll come out on the losing end oh about every 25 out of 37 times. However, look at the average age of most of these cores. High 20s right with everybody's star being around that age too. Now look at the Bulls core...an average age of about 21 or 22. I don't like a lot of things about each of their games but the fact remains most teams have an established core supplemented by veterans and young guys...we have the complete opposite. I'm just of the opinion now that we let these 4 guys at least run out their rookie contracts before deciding if we need to rebuild again. We could have 4 good players as opposed to one star and the rest role players...and maybe just maybe we can keep up with the West in 2 years.

P.S. I realize I'm prolly off on my estimation of the core group of players, but I put this together quickly so don't hold it against me.
 

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Our Sentence Is Up
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The core closest to ours in age is the Cavs. Who oddly enough have roughly the same record as us. I think the Cavs are our competition this year. If we can finish ahead of them then we are doing well. If we finish below them, there might be problems.
 

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you bring up a nice point. However, I think we have a much better supporting cast for these four players than any of the other teams do! Don't you agree? It is just a matter of getting healthy and playing together for a while.
 

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Crawford missed 2 games
Curry missed 7 games
Hinrich missed 5
Chandler missed 27



Tyson missed 27!!!!....the guy we deemed our best player after the early stretch of the season. Our core missed 41 games out of a possible 148. Our core has missed a combined 28% of the possible games they could have played.


Our core has only played 4 games together. Give them time to get healthy before you make a move. I agree give them 2 more years to develop.
 

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What would the Lakers have if all this happened to them

GP starts the season with the flu and misses the 1st 5 games of the season.

Shaq banged up his knee and missed 7 games

Malone pulled his back and missed 27 games

Kobe got flipped over Hoibergs back and missed 2 games

They would be what

at best 18-15 now....Bulls have been hurt badly with injuries
 

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I agree. The Bulls have several young players that are still developing and have pretty high developmental ceilings. If your looking at them as a finished product your probably going to be sorely dissappointed. But think of them once they finish developing probably 2-3 seasons down the road and they all have the strong likeliehood of turning into prime time players and real difference makers. Curry, Crawford, and Chandler have all showed us flashes of what their ultimate development will be and it looks pretty good. The Bulls have been absolutely plagued by injuries this season. I have to believe that if everyone was healthy we would have at least won another 4 or 5 games by now...at minimum.
 

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i'm all for patience. let's see what pip and chandler add to this team. then give skiles the rest of the season to work with this team.
 

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The Snake
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
This was basically my reasoning. I absolutely see what Paxson is trying to do. What I realized was either we trade away players who are basically rookies on other teams or see what they develop into...

Kirk Hinrich
If everything goes according to plan and it doesn't like worrisome at this point, Hinrich should become a prototypical point guard. He'll never average 20 a game like Baron Davis, and he may not become as good a passer as Jason Kidd, but he'll become a nice balance between both. I think we're looking at a player very similar to Mike Bibby here.

Jamal Crawford
Really depends how consistent he becomes. I honestly never think he'll be that slasher we all want him to be and may never be a T-Mac, Kobe, Pierce, VC, AI type of player but I see no reason he can't equal the success that Reggie Miller had or Michael Redd has now of somebody who can just shoot lights out. The fact that he also has point guard skills makes his valuable.

Tyson Chandler
From what we saw everybody was impressed. If the back injuries become chronic then we get the short straw, but if they're not, then we got a legitimate defensive force. Definitely a double/double but may never average more than 12 to 14 pts a game. If he can get 10 rebounds and 3 blocks a game I doubt anybody will have a problem.

Eddy Curry
By far the hardest to figure out. Night after night drops 15 without even trying. It seems he has become a consistent 12-15 ppg scorer, but if he ever maximizes his potential he'll put up 20 a night. He will never be Shaq, but he presents more matchup problems offensively than Shaq ever will. And with TC patrolling the lane on defense, Curry just needs to learn how to play solid post defense and stay out of foul trouble.

Role Players
Let's say either next year or the year after is when the Bulls make their move. I see no reason that we don't grab onto JYD and never let go. Dupree is also a good pickup who we should definitely hang onto. Let's say Skiles tries something along these lines...

Starters
PG - Jamal Crawford
SG - Kendall Gill
SF - Draft Pick
PF - Jerome Williams
C - Eddy Curry

Bench
Kirk Hinrich
Ronald Dupree
Tyson Chandler
Antonio Davis

Minutes Breakdown
PG - Kirk Hinrich(34)/Jamal Crawford(14)
SG - Jamal Crawford(26)/Kendall Gill(20)/Draft Pick(2)
SF - Draft Pick(28)/Ronald Dupree(20)
PF - Tyson Chandler(34)/Jerome Williams(14)
C - Eddy Curry(32)/Antonio Davis(16)

I realize everybody is like why start Gill/JYD is they aren't gonna play major minutes. I've always been of the opinion that sometimes you're 5 best players aren't the 5 guys you should be starting. Bringing Hinrich off the bench in his 2nd year relegates him to a Bobby Jackson type role. He is still playing 34 minutes a game, but this way Crawford starts at the point and then shifts off the ball, something I'm sure JC won't mind. Bringing Chandler off the bench is strictly a precaution. For example, he'd come in for JYD with like 7 minutes in the first, but let's say Curry gets 2 quick fouls, now you have the option of putting Chandler in at the 5. His ability to play both the 4 and 5, makes him more valuable off the bench that starting right away.
 

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Originally posted by <b>T.Shock</b>!
This was basically my reasoning. I absolutely see what Paxson is trying to do. What I realized was either we trade away players who are basically rookies on other teams or see what they develop into...

Kirk Hinrich
If everything goes according to plan and it doesn't like worrisome at this point, Hinrich should become a prototypical point guard. He'll never average 20 a game like Baron Davis, and he may not become as good a passer as Jason Kidd, but he'll become a nice balance between both. I think we're looking at a player very similar to Mike Bibby here.

Jamal Crawford
Really depends how consistent he becomes. I honestly never think he'll be that slasher we all want him to be and may never be a T-Mac, Kobe, Pierce, VC, AI type of player but I see no reason he can't equal the success that Reggie Miller had or Michael Redd has now of somebody who can just shoot lights out. The fact that he also has point guard skills makes his valuable.

Tyson Chandler
From what we saw everybody was impressed. If the back injuries become chronic then we get the short straw, but if they're not, then we got a legitimate defensive force. Definitely a double/double but may never average more than 12 to 14 pts a game. If he can get 10 rebounds and 3 blocks a game I doubt anybody will have a problem.

Eddy Curry
By far the hardest to figure out. Night after night drops 15 without even trying. It seems he has become a consistent 12-15 ppg scorer, but if he ever maximizes his potential he'll put up 20 a night. He will never be Shaq, but he presents more matchup problems offensively than Shaq ever will. And with TC patrolling the lane on defense, Curry just needs to learn how to play solid post defense and stay out of foul trouble.

Role Players
Let's say either next year or the year after is when the Bulls make their move. I see no reason that we don't grab onto JYD and never let go. Dupree is also a good pickup who we should definitely hang onto. Let's say Skiles tries something along these lines...

Starters
PG - Jamal Crawford
SG - Kendall Gill
SF - Draft Pick
PF - Jerome Williams
C - Eddy Curry

Bench
Kirk Hinrich
Ronald Dupree
Tyson Chandler
Antonio Davis

Minutes Breakdown
PG - Kirk Hinrich(34)/Jamal Crawford(14)
SG - Jamal Crawford(26)/Kendall Gill(20)/Draft Pick(2)
SF - Draft Pick(28)/Ronald Dupree(20)
PF - Tyson Chandler(34)/Jerome Williams(14)
C - Eddy Curry(32)/Antonio Davis(16)

I realize everybody is like why start Gill/JYD is they aren't gonna play major minutes. I've always been of the opinion that sometimes you're 5 best players aren't the 5 guys you should be starting. Bringing Hinrich off the bench in his 2nd year relegates him to a Bobby Jackson type role. He is still playing 34 minutes a game, but this way Crawford starts at the point and then shifts off the ball, something I'm sure JC won't mind. Bringing Chandler off the bench is strictly a precaution. For example, he'd come in for JYD with like 7 minutes in the first, but let's say Curry gets 2 quick fouls, now you have the option of putting Chandler in at the 5. His ability to play both the 4 and 5, makes him more valuable off the bench that starting right away.
Thats pretty well thought out. Nice post.
 

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Goal: Win NBA championship
Reality: We are the 4th or 5th worst team in the NBA

We've been using the 'young age' excuse for 5 seasons now, time to give it a rest. We're seeing guys the same age or younger than our core enter the league and show flashes of <i>dominance</i> not just talent. Lebron, 'Melo, Amare, Bosh..

When is someone going to start realizing something the rest of the league probably already knows... <b>the 3 C's will not win us an NBA championship</b>. There, I said it. Throw Hinrich into the mix too. The 3C's and Hinrich will not win the Bulls an NBA championship if they stay together. I think Paxson is starting to get a clue about this, when will the fans?
 

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Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
Goal: Win NBA championship
Reality: We are the 4th or 5th worst team in the NBA

We've been using the 'young age' excuse for 5 seasons now, time to give it a rest. We're seeing guys the same age or younger than our core enter the league and show flashes of <i>dominance</i> not just talent. Lebron, 'Melo, Amare, Bosh..

When is someone going to start realizing something the rest of the league probably already knows... <b>the 3 C's will not win us an NBA championship</b>. There, I said it. Throw Hinrich into the mix too. The 3C's and Hinrich will not win the Bulls an NBA championship if they stay together. I think Paxson is starting to get a clue about this, when will the fans?
Well said SD. At this point the best that I see this group become is competitive in the Central. Eventully this squad will mature and take us into the playoffs, but those playoff births will probably be nothing more than moral victories. This board has gone over and over the equation and necessary pieces for a championship, yet we feel as if we can ignore that equation when it comes to our team. EVERY YEAR, the champions have 2 stars with at least one of those stars being a legitimate MVP candidate. We're talking top 5 players in the league. These teams all have stellar half court offensive sets. ALL the teams play strong to excellent defense, especially half court defense. And all these teams have one or more guys to go to for the clutch bucket. Do we have any of that? Is anyone here even remotely convinced that we have a top 5 player in the making? Has our poor offensive efforts and somewhat improving defense led people to believe that we can turn around THAT much? We have strong pieces, but we still lack that centerpiece. Until we obtain that somehow, we can forget about being legit contenders.
 

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The Snake
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Well my point is what do we have to lose...

Either we start rebuilding now and never even give them a shot or we give them a shot and if it doesn't work out start rebuilding in 2 years. Like my original post was intended. Look at my point in the very first post. We have the youngest core group in the league. Think about certain things like that OT game in Minnesota, blowing a 15 point lead at halftime in Miami, and there has been 2 or 3 other games where we had a legitimate chance to win. So what we're 16-21 instead of 12-25. We're only 5 games out of a playoff spot. Teams just don't go from terrible to championship in 3 years. Let's make the playoffs first, then if we need to trade one of our pieces to take that extra step let's do it. Being without Chandler and Pippen and still being 5 games out of a playoff spot isn't 2 bad if you ask me. Unless we can get T-Mac, Pierce, Kobe, Peja or somebody like that. A legitimate all-around MVP candidate, then why should we trade Crawford, Chandler, or Curry.
 

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Players develop at different speeds and by all accounts the Bulls haven't done a wonderful job of developing our young talent. Still, to say that Chandler or Curry will never win a championship because look at Amare now, or, Crawford will never win a championship because look how good Lebron is as a rook is just asinine IMO. I'm not sure why anyone would say that the three C-s won't win a championship together. If you said they won't THIS season I would accept it as a trusim, if you said they won't next season I would agree that your probably right, but once these players all reach the height of their development I think it should be something special to see. The Bulls have had this same problem before. People get impatient! They got impatient with Brand, Artest, Voskuhl, Hassell... They need to stay the course and continue to develop their young players while adding in the right pieces around them.
 

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Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
Players develop at different speeds and by all accounts the Bulls haven't done a wonderful job of developing our young talent. Still, to say that Chandler or Curry will never win a championship because look at Amare now, or, Crawford will never win a championship because look how good Lebron is as a rook is just asinine IMO. I'm not sure why anyone would say that the three C-s won't win a championship together. If you said they won't THIS season I would accept it as a trusim, if you said they won't next season I would agree that your probably right, but once these players all reach the height of their development I think it should be something special to see. The Bulls have had this same problem before. People get impatient! They got impatient with Brand, Artest, Voskuhl, Hassell... They need to stay the course and continue to develop their young players while adding in the right pieces around them.
You missed the point, yet again. Age is NOT an excuse.

Superstars win championships, period. You either have two superstars (Shaq/Kobe) or you have one uber-star ala Hakeem, Duncan, or MJ at the top of his game with a great supporting cast.

Ace, when you look at our roster do you see any superstars? Heck, do you see any All-Stars even? The Bulls haven't had an All-Star player in 5 seasons (in a Bulls uniform). This core of players will not win an NBA championship.
 

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Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!


You missed the point, yet again.

Superstars win championships, period. You either have two superstars (Shaq/Kobe) or you have one uber-star ala Hakeem, Duncan, or MJ at the top of his game with a great supporting cast.

Ace, when you look at our roster do you see any superstars? Heck, do you see any All-Stars even? The Bulls haven't had an All-Star player in 5 seasons (in a Bulls uniform). This core of players will not win an NBA championship.
I really think it is you who are missing the point. The three C's are NOT a finished product, Hinrich is NOT a finished product. You talk about the Bulls "lack of superstars" but we honestly don't know just how good any of the Bulls young players will end up being. For all we know ALL of the three C's could wind up being Uber Superstars! This core of players will not win an NBA chanpionship......AT THIS POINT IN THIER CAREERS. The same thing was said of Brand, Artest, Miller and now people are getting all teary eyed thinking about what the Bulls could have had IF They had been patient. All your looking at is the here and now and that, IMO, doesn't mean a whole lot as to what these players will eventually become. I know, you want them to play like the players who came into the league by storm, Amare, Lebron, Bosh, whoever...EVERY player develops at a different speed. Heck, two years from now we might be talking about how much better Chandler and Curry both are than Amare!
 

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The 3 Cs will not win a championship together. Not this year, not next year, not five years from now. Why? Because I don't see the possiblity for any of those players to become top 5 talents. I firmly do believe in that equation that a contender must posess at least one top 5 talent. Ace, do you honestly see Crawford, Curry, or TC developing into a player that can completely dominate on both ends a la Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, MJ, Hakeem, Clyde, Magic, Bird, and yes, even Isaiah? In order for C Unit to ever win anything, they still need a centerpiece. All 3 of them make excellent pieces to complement a true stud, but all 3 on the same team will handcuff that team to those guys and leave them without the ability to add a true number 1. C Unit all show glimpses of talent, but I think one thing that is shaping up is that none of them posess the ability to completely carry a team. I see none of these guys as future hall of famers and that's what NBA champs have.
 

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Originally posted by <b>sp00k</b>!
The 3 Cs will not win a championship together. Not this year, not next year, not five years from now. Why? Because I don't see the possiblity for any of those players to become top 5 talents. I firmly do believe in that equation that a contender must posess at least one top 5 talent. Ace, do you honestly see Crawford, Curry, or TC developing into a player that can completely dominate on both ends a la Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, MJ, Hakeem, Clyde, Magic, Bird, and yes, even Isaiah? In order for C Unit to ever win anything, they still need a centerpiece. All 3 of them make excellent pieces to complement a true stud, but all 3 on the same team will handcuff that team to those guys and leave them without the ability to add a true number 1. C Unit all show glimpses of talent, but I think one thing that is shaping up is that none of them posess the ability to completely carry a team. I see none of these guys as future hall of famers and that's what NBA champs have.
Well can you get me the winning lottery numbers while your at it?

I consider myself a pretty good evaluator of talent and I see some pretty special things in ALL of the three C's. That doesn't necessarily mean they will ALL be superstars but I certainly think it is WAY too early to give up on that idea. Do any of you even realize how YOUNG these guys are? I don't know how you could not see flashes of dominance in all of the three C's games. Those flashes could very well become regular occurences. I think that your simply impatient. After all, you have been waiting a long time for winning Bulls basketball! I remember the Bulls dealt Brand and Artest and everyone was like "Brand will never be a dominant player and will never learn to play defense" looks like he is getting it pretty good in LA. Artest will never "get it" offensively, uhhh..is that right? Miller can never be a top center in this league. Sure.

In any case, the Bulls at this point have NOTHING to lose by letting the chips ride and EVERYTHING to gain.
 

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Let's not be facetious here. Predicting lottery numbers and simply drawing a conclusion from watching basketball are two completely different things. All your examples of our former players simply prove my point. None of them were top 5 talents and I predict that none of them will win anything when featured as the centerpiece of their team. Miller has Peja and CWebb will be back. Brand will win only if he gets Kobe or Maggette brings it up yet another level. Artest will only win on a team with a true number one, like O'Neal, and still, Jermaine needs to pick his game up a level. And I full well know how young these guys are. Of close age to Amare and Yao, older than Lebron and Melo, the same age or younger than TMac. But in one area that I am in accordance is that we don't have much to lose now to let it ride. We might lose Jamal for nothing if we don't trade him, or worse, sign him to a big deal and he doesn't materialize, but by all means EC and TC deserve a full summer under Skiles. Jamal is just a tough situation all around.
 

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Originally posted by <b>sp00k</b>!
Let's not be facetious here. Predicting lottery numbers and simply drawing a conclusion from watching basketball are two completely different things. All your examples of our former players simply prove my point. None of them were top 5 talents and I predict that none of them will win anything when featured as the centerpiece of their team. Miller has Peja and CWebb will be back. Brand will win only if he gets Kobe or Maggette brings it up yet another level. Artest will only win on a team with a true number one, like O'Neal, and still, Jermaine needs to pick his game up a level. And I full well know how young these guys are. Of close age to Amare and Yao, older than Lebron and Melo, the same age or younger than TMac. But in one area that I am in accordance is that we don't have much to lose now to let it ride. We might lose Jamal for nothing if we don't trade him, or worse, sign him to a big deal and he doesn't materialize, but by all means EC and TC deserve a full summer under Skiles. Jamal is just a tough situation all around.
Your right, watching basketball and drawing a conclusion and picking lottery #'s out of thin air are certainly different things entirely. And I apologize for my facetiousness. I supposse I am just a little tired of everyone stating their opinions as fact. I don't see any reason why the three C's couldn't end up being top 5 players in a couple of seasons. You have to crawl before you walk and right now thats exactly what they are doing. Tyson when playing healthy was top 5 in the league in rebounding and blocks and has shown to be a game changer in terms of what he brings defensively. Curry led the league in fg% last year. Crawford has had some amazing games as well. I don't know that all of these things point to these guys winding up as medioce or slightly above mediocre. And Brand and Artest may not be "top 5" players but they are certainly better now than any Bulls fans seemed to think they would become. I don't buy into the concept that you MUST have a top 5 player on your team to win a championship anyway. It is after all in the end a TEAM game. Sure, it's easier having a top 5 player, no doubt about that.

Anyway, I don't think either of us are SURE what the three C's will end up being. I don't even think Marty Blake could know that for sure.
 
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