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Limehouse Blues
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Rip for Stack was a lot bigger mistake than taking Kwame first.There really weren't a lot of great players availabe.Kwame was a roll of the dice.His failure is more his own fault than Jordan's.The fact that Kwame didn't succeed is mostly Kwame's fault.Trading Hamilton for Stackhouse was retarded when Jordan did it and more retarded every day since.
 

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Discussion Starter #22 (Edited)
Pioneer10 said:
Like it or not: Kwame is a bust and Jordan drafted him. Just because he was highly rated doesn't excuse that essential fact.

Ala the Raptors should get credit for drafting Charlie V even though he wasn't as rated highly and the converse should be true as well. It's the job of the GM to make the tough decisions. IF Jordan's other moves were solid then people can forget the pick (ala Dumars drafting Darko but getting guys like Billups, and Wallace essentially he is allowed a mistake or two). But Jordan's other decisions were poor as well (i.e. trading for Stackhouse) and so the he isn't given the latitude for the Brown pick and he shouldn't have that latitude
I don't agree with that argument; however, I can see where you are coming from with it. The reason Toronto gets credit for drafting Charlie V is because most people believed he would be a bust and he proved not to be. Jordan had other moves that were solid, such as drafting Bobby Simmons in the 2nd round; however, he isn't given credit for that. He also isn't given credit for injecting some life into a franchise that was severly decling and dying. The Wizards essentially used Jordan to get some respectability. Jordan gave th Wizards something they didn't have and they carried that to the success they are having now and this is something he isn't given enough credit for.
 

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ralaw said:
Jordan gave th Wizards a taste of winning basketball and they carried that to the success they are having now and this is something he isn't given enough credit for.

Completely wrong. The Wizards success the last 2 years is at the hands of Ernie Grunfeld, not MJ. When MJ was fired the Wizards were a mess, coming off a very dissapointing season where they DIDN'T expierence winning basketball and infact had all kinds of chemistry problems in the locker room and with the coach. MJ had nothing to do with the current teams success, Ernie came in and immediately sent the team in the right direction. In a 1 year period they got a new GM, new coach, got Gilbert Arenas, and traded for Antawn Jamison. None of these moves had anything to do with MJ era.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
Shanghai Kid said:
Completely wrong. The Wizards success the last 2 years is at the hands of Ernie Grunfeld, not MJ. When MJ was fired the Wizards were a mess, coming off a very dissapointing season where they DIDN'T expierence winning basketball and infact had all kinds of chemistry problems in the locker room and with the coach. MJ had nothing to do with the current teams success, Ernie came in and immediately sent the team in the right direction. In a 1 year period they got a new GM, new coach, got Gilbert Arenas, and traded for Antawn Jamison. None of these moves had anything to do with MJ era.
I knew someone would say this, which is why I changed "winning basketball" to "injecting some life into a dying basketball organization" Jordan was the catalyst for the team hiring someone who could carry this team to where it needed to be. In the end Jordan had a positive influence on this organization. I'm talking about instilling a certain mentality.
 

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What Do You Know??? Shaqtus
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Like it or not: Kwame is a bust and Jordan drafted him. Just because he was highly rated doesn't excuse that essential fact.
If LeBron James turned out to suck, would you blame Cleveland for drafting him?
 

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Zero Hero said:
If LeBron James turned out to suck, would you blame Cleveland for drafting him?
Yes
 

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ralaw said:
I don't agree with that argument; however, I can see where you are coming from with it. The reason Toronto gets credit for drafting Charlie V is because most people believed he would be a bust and he proved not to be. Jordan had other moves that were solid, such as drafting Bobby Simmons in the 2nd round; however, he isn't given credit for that. He also isn't given credit for injecting some life into a franchise that was severly decling and dying. The Wizards essentially used Jordan to get some respectability. Jordan gave th Wizards something they didn't have and they carried that to the success they are having now and this is something he isn't given enough credit for.
I think you're points don't hold much validity. What would have happened if Arenas got hurt would Jordan still credit for restoring a dying franchise? No he wouldn't.

The Wizards are better now because they have better players and not becuase of Jordan. The credit for that should go to the management AFTER Jordan left. They brought in Arenas, Hughes, Butler, Jamison, etc (note Bobby Simmons appears to have turned into a contract year player). Players make a team and Jordan didn't do that effectively enough. I wish him the best in Charlotte and wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't do a better job: mainly because everyone learns from there mistakes and Jordan has the competive drive to put in the hard work but that doesn't change the fact that he had little succes with the Wizards
 

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ralaw said:
I knew someone would say this, which is why I changed "winning basketball" to "injecting some life into a dying basketball organization" Jordan was the catalyst for the team hiring someone who could carry this team to where it needed to be. In the end Jordan had a positive influence on this organization. I'm talking about instilling a certain mentality.

Dude, the second Jordan was fired they took down all pictures, jerseys, or anything at MCI Center that even reminded anybody of MJ. They wanted to completely forget about the MJ era as if it didn't exist. Abe Pollin HATED Jordan and Abe is the guy who hired Grunfeld. Their was zero influence from MJ, the players that he liked were Tyrone Lou and Bryon Russell, both gone that very summer. Their was no positive influence, the Wizards got lucky signing Arenas and they traded for Jamison, nothing to do with MJ.
 

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ralaw said:
What is that supposed to mean? That makes no sense, as a bust is a bust. So because of Jordan, Kwame Brown will forever be an even a bigger bust than what he was destined to be? I find that to be comical at best. Besides, if you believe Jordan caused Kwame to be a "bigger bust" then what he was supposed to be, than you have to also believe playing under the tutelage of Phil Jackson and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar should cause "The Wrath of the Jordan curse" to be reversed due to them working on his selfesteem.
How is it comical that there are different levels of busts? Being a bust means not living up to the hype. I doubt he ever wouldve lived up to the hype but he didnt live up to it and then some as it went.
 

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Discussion Starter #32 (Edited)
Pioneer10 said:
I think you're points don't hold much validity. What would have happened if Arenas got hurt would Jordan still credit for restoring a dying franchise? No he wouldn't.

The Wizards are better now because they have better players and not becuase of Jordan. The credit for that should go to the management AFTER Jordan left. They brought in Arenas, Hughes, Butler, Jamison, etc (note Bobby Simmons appears to have turned into a contract year player). Players make a team and Jordan didn't do that effectively enough. I wish him the best in Charlotte and wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't do a better job: mainly because everyone learns from there mistakes and Jordan has the competive drive to put in the hard work but that doesn't change the fact that he had little succes with the Wizards
Shanghai Kid said:
Dude, the second Jordan was fired they took down all pictures, jerseys, or anything at MCI Center that even reminded anybody of MJ. They wanted to completely forget about the MJ era as if it didn't exist. Abe Pollin HATED Jordan and Abe is the guy who hired Grunfeld. Their was zero influence from MJ, the players that he liked were Tyrone Lou and Bryon Russell, both gone that very summer. Their was no positive influence, the Wizards got lucky signing Arenas and they traded for Jamison, nothing to do with MJ.
I can pretty much answer both of your comments together. I never said Jordan brought in the current players and should be given credit. The organization before Jordan was going down hill quickly and it was Jordan who came in and raised the standards. Jordan brought in a mentality of higher expectations and he was successful. In raising the standards, he turned around the losing mentality and instilled a desire to be better throughout the organization including Pollin who eventually brought in a real GM in Grunfeld. I'm sure Pollin wouldn't admit it, but Jordan instilled something positive into the franchise by his mere presence. However, whether Pollin admits it or not doesn't matter as, it was an unconscious change that isn't obvious.

However, I fully expect the two of you to disagree with my beliefs about Jordan being a building block of the current success of the Wizards, as it really is a matter of perspective.
 

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Curse of the Sonics
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The Wizards weren't ready for Jordan. Jordan was ready to win games that season, and make the playoffs. It was pretty sad to see an old man diving for loose balls and hustling more than younger guys with much fresher legs and more energy.

Kwame Brown wasn't a bust, because the guys around him in that draft aren't any better than him. Pau Gasol is a stud but Chandler and Curry are both in the same boat with Kwame Brown.

Pau Gasol was from EuroLeague, so people always doubt international players coming over (see Bargnani this year), and it's an unspoken draft law that you don't take small over big, which is why Jason Richardson was 5th behind four big guys. Three of them who turned out pretty average.

Jordan obviously isn't the best GM, but he isn't bad either. He just has huge expectations because of who he was as a player.
 

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Sir Patchwork said:
The Wizards weren't ready for Jordan. Jordan was ready to win games that season, and make the playoffs. It was pretty sad to see an old man diving for loose balls and hustling more than younger guys with much fresher legs and more energy.

Kwame Brown wasn't a bust, because the guys around him in that draft aren't any better than him. Pau Gasol is a stud but Chandler and Curry are both in the same boat with Kwame Brown.

Pau Gasol was from EuroLeague, so people always doubt international players coming over (see Bargnani this year), and it's an unspoken draft law that you don't take small over big, which is why Jason Richardson was 5th behind four big guys. Three of them who turned out pretty average.

Jordan obviously isn't the best GM, but he isn't bad either. He just has huge expectations because of who he was as a player.
Dam, I wish I had that open mindedness and this great attribute of looking at things in the big picture.
 

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Discussion Starter #35 (Edited)
Sir Patchwork said:
The Wizards weren't ready for Jordan. Jordan was ready to win games that season, and make the playoffs. It was pretty sad to see an old man diving for loose balls and hustling more than younger guys with much fresher legs and more energy.

Kwame Brown wasn't a bust, because the guys around him in that draft aren't any better than him. Pau Gasol is a stud but Chandler and Curry are both in the same boat with Kwame Brown.

Pau Gasol was from EuroLeague, so people always doubt international players coming over (see Bargnani this year), and it's an unspoken draft law that you don't take small over big, which is why Jason Richardson was 5th behind four big guys. Three of them who turned out pretty average.

Jordan obviously isn't the best GM, but he isn't bad either. He just has huge expectations because of who he was as a player.
Wells said Sir Patwork. This is essentially what why I made this thread. However, it seems popular opinion has overtaken reality as it relates to the drafting of Kwame Brown. Jordan wasn't the best because he made some questionable decisions (ie the Hamilton/ Stackhouse trade), but he certainly wasn't the worse either. However, if anyone remembers that situation they would remember that Jordan made that trade because he wanted a veteran whom had more passion and being that he knew Stack (through the UNC connection) it made sense and Hamilton at the time was a good young player, but not what he turned into when he went to Detroit. However, hindsight is always 20/20.
 

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Rip City
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People have short memories in sports. So Jordan will be able to change the perception fans have him as a GM if the Bobcats go on to be a good team for years to come.

Must say I agree with all the pro Jordan GM comments when he was with the Wizards. Another positive you can look at it with Jordan coming back to play is the tickets/merchandise that sold, and that the Wizards franchise made money from.
 

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I never thought praising someone for mediocrity was a good thing
 
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