[ScottVdub]

Im so sick and tired of hearing people, not necessarily on this board, talk about how krause made a dumb move when he traded pippen. Sure we didnt really get any talent that would help us immediatly or ever but if we would have resigned pip for the money he is making that would have been a huge mistake. What has scottie ever done in a big game situation, nothing much that i remember. I remember in big games, mj would take over and i'll never forget in 1994 when he refused to stay in the game because the game winning shot wasnt drawn up for him. Ever since Pippen left the Bulls, Scottie Pippen as we know him went into retirement. Im glad we got rid of him because he would be hurting our team right now and we would not have the salary cap room that gives us so much flexibility to make moves now. I live in Portland and most Blazer fans can't wait til 2003 is over and pippens contract is up, since last summer we've just been hoping he'd retire.

It's no disrespect to Scottie, while the Bulls we're winning championships he was great on Defense and was an excellent #2 option and deserves his rightful place in the hall of fame but im glad we got rid of him when we did because it's obvious we had seen the last of his greatness and we were trying to look toward the future and we wouldn't be able to with him on our payroll.

So stop criticizing JK for trading pippen for a bunch of nobodies, We could have probably gotten more but that still wouldnt have taken us anywhere, it was time for a change.

 

[BCH]

At the time he was traded, I agree that he wasn't going to help the Bulls after MJ and PJ left. In the end Pippen got what he wanted.

 

[Songcycle]

Excellent post ScottVdub plus if we really got talent, we wouldn't have landed Brand, Curry, Chandler, WIlliams etc. The point was to dump and give Krause credit for getting Pippen millions and millions of extra dollars when we had less than no obligation to do so,
It flabbergasts me that some people praise MJ who wants to get somewhere in the playoffs for dumping Howard and Booth for junk, when Dallas got LaFrantz and VanExcel for Howard.
Funny world.

 

[johnston797]

Originally posted by Songcycle
Excellent post ScottVdub plus if we really got talent, we wouldn't have landed Brand, Curry, Chandler, WIlliams etc. The point was to dump and give Krause credit for getting Pippen millions and millions of extra dollars when we had less than no obligation to do so,
It flabbergasts me that some people praise MJ who wants to get somewhere in the playoffs for dumping Howard and Booth for junk, when Dallas got LaFrantz and VanExcel for Howard.
Funny world.

Songcycle, You can give guys like Jordan and PJ some respect and still worship Krause.

Trading Howard was a very nice move by Jordan.

As far as the second Howard trade, picking up LaFrantz required Cuban to take bad contacts for VanExcel, Avery Johnson and Tariq Wahid. These were 3 terrible contracts. And Dallas still had to play LaFrenze $70M. Denver is out from under Howard's contract at the end of this year.

Cuban is the one that should be given some credit for rebuilding both the Wiz and Nugetz.

 

[MikeDC]

Originally posted by Songcycle
Excellent post ScottVdub plus if we really got talent, we wouldn't have landed Brand, Curry, Chandler, WIlliams etc. The point was to dump and give Krause credit for getting Pippen millions and millions of extra dollars when we had less than no obligation to do so,
It flabbergasts me that some people praise MJ who wants to get somewhere in the playoffs for dumping Howard and Booth for junk, when Dallas got LaFrantz and VanExcel for Howard.
Funny world.

I those two guys are so good, would you like LaFrentz and Van Excel on the Bulls?

LaFrentz is a soft center who didn't seem to help Dallas one bit, and Van Excel is overpaid in the extreme as well as being a me-first guy.

On the other hand, I wouldn't mind at all if the Bulls had a couple of the guys the Wiz got back, like Laettner, who would fill our need of an experienced, backup 4/5, and Thomas, who's a young 4/5 but a high energy, tenacious defender. Hubert Davis is slow, but he's about the league's best specialist 3 point shooter outside of Steve Kerr. Courtney Alexander didn't work out for them, but he's got talent and he ended up getting them Dixon.

--------------------

Also, it seems to me that people fundamentally miss the point when they say that if we had gotten someone better for Pip, then we wouldn't have gotten Chandler, Curry, etc. Sure, we wouldn't have been in a position to draft Brand, but our roster would have been more attractive to free agents, and Krause himself would have attempted to court them before the strike season. I mean obviously he wouldn't have tried to tank the season if, for example, he'd traded Pip for Eddie Jones and Eldon Campbell. Maybe he would have gone out and signed Antonio McDyess. Could a team of Campbell, McDyess, Kukoc, Jones, and Harper have gotten to the finals and beaten the Spurs? Quite possibly.

At the same time, it seems a pretty fundamental conceit that some people won't acknowledge that, had Tim Thomas or someone like that accepted one of Krause's offers, we wouldn't have Chandler either.

 

[Songcycle]

I respect Jordan as a player, not as a human being or GM. Ask Juanita.
I respect Jackson as a great coach but he is a backtabber who will bite the hand that feeds him,
Wake me up when the Wiz make the playoffs or do the right thing by Kwamee. They are going nowhere and even if they make the playoffs in the next couple years, they are severly mismanaged and are going nowhere.
Dallas knows what they are doing and LaFrantz will hekp them greatly.

 

[Songcycle]

MikeDC, you are talking longshots here. Also lets talk player development. Kwamee's biggest problem is who took him and their lack of direction. Chandler or Curry would flounder there too.

LaFrantz is better than you think and Van Excel will wind up being peddled and if not they can afford it. Cuban can handle the money and I give gim credit.
Laetner is a zilch and Dixon is an average #17 pick, he is going nowhere.

Very few NBA teams are as badly mismanaged as the Wiz, but so many pray to Jordan as their false deity not understanding that being a great player counts nil in terms of being anything else in life.

 

[johnston797]

Originally posted by Songcycle
I respect Jordan as a player, not as a human being or GM. Ask Juanita.

Seems like a personal problem. If not, what do you think are Jordan's mistakes as a GM.

I respect Jackson as a great coach but he is a backtabber who will bite the hand that feeds him,

With the exception of Bach, Jackson's assistant coaches have been very loyal to him. There is typically friction between GMs and coaches. Again, seems like a personal problem.

Wake me up when the Wiz make the playoffs or do the right thing by Kwamee. They are going nowhere and even if they make the playoffs in the next couple years, they are severly mismanaged and are going nowhere.

I love MJ as a player and think he has done a good job as a GM. Much better than Reisdorf would have given him credit for. MJ probably learned a little something from Krause, not that he would ever admit it.

Dallas knows what they are doing and LaFrantz will hekp them greatly.

Cuban has figured out how to be successful when he is willing to spend millions extra on payroll compared to other teams. Just like the Yankees. Something the Dodgers have not been able to do. His team still seems pretty far from a championship and he is sure to lose millions over the next few years.

By the way, Songcycle, if you are related to Krause, just let me know and I won't call you on this stuff.

 

[RetroDreams]

You know, I guess I'm just one for loyalty.

We could have just let Pippen finish his deal and walk, but the organization decided to take care of him but letting him get his retirement money and go to a contender at the same time. Same thing with Steve Kerr. We always took care of our veterans... Look at the rest, they are littered throughout our organization as coaches, scouts and reps. BJ, Pete, Cart, Pax...

I've always thought the Bulls were a classy organization and even if you don't like Krause as a person, he does the right thing and always gets dogged for it. Just like the Spurs did this year and everyone is going to criticize them for it. They are going to take care of Robinson and have rewarded Rose for his loyalty.

It's pretty pathetic actually, because not many teams will take care of their players like the Bulls, or Spurs will. Honestly, I think the main reason the Bulls get blasted is because of Krause's characteristics... his weight mainly. But that is America.

 

[johnston797]

Originally posted by RetroDreams
You know, I guess I'm just one for loyalty.

We could have just let Pippen finish his deal and walk, but....

Well, there was one other option. We could have let Pippen finish his deal and sign him to a new one. NBA players would argue that that would have been the classy thing to do.

Not the right move? Consider this:

1.) Pip has been traded since he signed the contract. For some decent players.

2.) The Bulls did nothing with the salary cap run exept for signing Mercer, Miller, E-Rob and picking up Oakley and Anthoney. (1 out of 5 ain't too great) Oh, and Brent Barry and Will Perdue.

3.) Pip's contract is up at the end of this year. He could have been a nice vetern leader.

 

[RetroDreams]

That would assume that Pippen would have wanted to spend his twilight years on a team in the basement of the East... you think he would have actually done this?

And Pip as a role-model is scary... man, talk about bad habits.

 

[johnston797]

Originally posted by RetroDreams
That would assume that Pippen would have wanted to spend his twilight years on a team in the basement of the East... you think he would have actually done this?

And Pip as a role-model is scary... man, talk about bad habits.

We'll never know if Pip would have signed. If he did, maybe Jordan comes back too to defend the title.

As for habits, nothing wrong with how he plays on the court, build his body up, or keeps in shape.

 

[Songcycle]

Originally posted by johnston797


Seems like a personal problem. If not, what do you think are Jordan's mistakes as a GM.



With the exception of Bach, Jackson's assistant coaches have been very loyal to him. There is typically friction between GMs and coaches. Again, seems like a personal problem.


I love MJ as a player and think he has done a good job as a GM. Much better than Reisdorf would have given him credit for. MJ probably learned a little something from Krause, not that he would ever admit it.



Cuban has figured out how to be successful when he is willing to spend millions extra on payroll compared to other teams. Just like the Yankees. Something the Dodgers have not been able to do. His team still seems pretty far from a championship and he is sure to lose millions over the next few years.

By the way, Songcycle, if you are related to Krause, just let me know and I won't call you on this stuff.

My problem with MJ is personel? like I know him or want to. I do not respect people who cheat on their wives but that is not my problem, concern or any of my business.
MJ took over a team that should have played .500 ball at the time and only came close to that when he played. There is no great upcoming core of talent and .500 gets you nowhere.
Jordan quit on the Bulls twice, not the other way around.
Make sure you read Retro's post. He and I don't always get along, but he speaks the truth.
I often wonder when I read opinions like yours if anti-semitism is a factor in your negativity towards basically decent people.

 

[MikeDC]

Originally posted by RetroDreams
That would assume that Pippen would have wanted to spend his twilight years on a team in the basement of the East... you think he would have actually done this?

But again, I think you're assuming the chicken comes before the egg. Logic dictates that if Krause had kept Pippen around, he would have taken some sort of steps to "rebuild on the fly" instead of "rebuild from the ground up". I mean, if you're gonna have a team with Pippen on it, you might as well try to do something with it.

 

[johnston797]

Originally posted by Songcycle


My problem with MJ is personel? like I know him or want to. I do not respect people who cheat on their wives but that is not my problem, concern or any of my business.
MJ took over a team that should have played .500 ball at the time and only came close to that when he played. There is no great upcoming core of talent and .500 gets you nowhere.
Jordan quit on the Bulls twice, not the other way around.

Yes, to me, what goes on between MJ and his wife is their own personal stuff. Look, if I had a sister, I would not want MJ to date her. But that's not what we are discussing. However, when I read your issues with Jordan, it seem that you take his lifestyle as some personal affront. It sounds like MJ has offended your personal values. And it appears to be clouding your perspective.

Originally posted by Songcycle
I often wonder when I read opinions like yours if anti-semitism is a factor in your negativity towards basically decent people.

Again, this definetely sounds like a personal problem. Why do you say this?

Look, I have read the Jordan Rules and I just finished Playing for Keeps. The way that Krause is descriped as a heck of a lot close to an ego manic than a basically decent guy. Are the 2 writers (Sam Smith and David Halberstam) anti-semitists as well?

 

[MikeDC]

Originally posted by Songcycle
I often wonder when I read opinions like yours if anti-semitism is a factor in your negativity towards basically decent people.

Obviously, you've got some kind of love-hate thing with Krause and MJ, but you don't see anyone suggesting that a dislike of Blacks is the reason for your negativity towards the latter.

That anti-semitism comment (especially when so widely and baselessly directed) is an absolutely ridiculous and foolish statement to be making.

You owe an apology to all who read it, and to those who you're trying to paint with it (directly or indirectly).

What a load of crap. I've had a good time reading this board the last several days, but I've got better **** to do than watch people start spewing charges of bigotry any time someone doesn't agree with whatever garbage they're spouting.

 

[Songcycle]

Originally posted by Mikedc


But again, I think you're assuming the chicken comes before the egg. Logic dictates that if Krause had kept Pippen around, he would have taken some sort of steps to "rebuild on the fly" instead of "rebuild from the ground up". I mean, if you're gonna have a team with Pippen on it, you might as well try to do something with it.

Pippen was threatining to quit when MJ and PJ were still arounf and if you bothered to read the papers here, they had some regrets about coming the last year because Pippen was up to his old games.

Pippen wanted to rengotiate years before the Collective Bargaining Agreement would have allowed him to get an extension and fobade a renegotiation.

So lets say we kept Pippen who clearly wanted out, he wasn't enough to get a championship on his own. Better to sink to the bottom and get top picks to rebuild. Not follow the path of the hapless Wiz and their mismanagement.

This is a new board, not RealGM, if you want to troll, please don't do it here, please go back to RealGM. Or do you miss us so much you can't stay away.

 

[RetroDreams]

Originally posted by Mikedc


But again, I think you're assuming the chicken comes before the egg. Logic dictates that if Krause had kept Pippen around, he would have taken some sort of steps to "rebuild on the fly" instead of "rebuild from the ground up". I mean, if you're gonna have a team with Pippen on it, you might as well try to do something with it.

Point taken and that is why, in the end, I think Krause and Pippen did what was best for both parties.

Pip, maxed out and to a contender and Krause, able to rebuild from the ground up. The organization still didn't have to do what it did... that was my underlying point.

 

[johnston797]

Originally posted by RetroDreams
Point taken and that is why, in the end, I think Krause and Pippen did what was best for both parties.

Pip, maxed out and to a contender and Krause, able to rebuild from the ground up. The organization still didn't have to do what it did... that was my underlying point.

Makes sense to me. Pip was going to sign with Houston anyway but the sign and trade did help him get more money. Given what he got, Krause most have done this as a thank you to Pippen.

 

[MikeDC]

Originally posted by RetroDreams


Point taken and that is why, in the end, I think Krause and Pippen did what was best for both parties.

Pip, maxed out and to a contender and Krause, able to rebuild from the ground up. The organization still didn't have to do what it did... that was my underlying point.

And I agree with it. That is one point that I think Krause DOES get unfairly bashed on. He didn't HAVE to help Pip out, but he has. Likewise, he helped get favorable deals to Longley, Kerr, BJ, Perdue, Pete Meyers, and of course, Mr. Bill.

The only guys that appear to still have any long-standing issues with him (and vice versa) are MJ and PJ. Unfortunately, those are the heavy hitters. Anyone who thinks there isn't plenty of blame to go around is ... well, ummm... I'd rather not say :grinning: