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Administrator 12/02--7/07
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Discussion Starter #1
This isn't meant to hate on these three, but I think we can all agree there are weaknesses in each of their games. We've talked about their weakesses seperately in dozens of threads, but I think there is reason to discuss the three of them together.

We've theorized about age, laziness, lack of brainpower, lack of experience, bad attitudes and all sorts of reasons neither Curry, Crawford or Robinson perform well on a regular basis and in particular, why none of the three are especially effective on defense. All of the theories put forth probably have at least some merit.

But I see something in all three of them -- something that they all have in common, and something that I think is one of the most significant factors contributing to their struggles.

All three of them hate contact.

Why doesn't Crawford try to draw charges the way Kirk does? Why doesn't he stick to his man on defense like white on rice? Why does he have lapses where he settle for awkward J's instead of taking it to the hole?

ERob is somewhat more willing to drive, but do you ever see him taking a charge or diving after a loose ball or playing physical D?
And he drives when he's open. Rarely will he go into traffic to draw a foul. Compare with Pippen. Or Dupree.

Eddy? The man should be all *** and elbows under the boards, like a 7 foot Karl Malone. Nothing could be further from the truth. He readily admits he's never been in a fight in his life. He doesn't clog the lanes, is not a shot blocker, pound for pound is not an effective rebounder and does not even clog up the lanes anywhere near the way a man his size should. Just compare his willingness to engage in contact with Chandlers.

I think the common denominator is none of the three are willing to get bumped around and in return, none are willing to do any bumping themselves. No wonder Norm is 2 steps away from a straightjacket. That type of thinking is as far from the Sloan/Van Lier way of thinking and playing as you can get.

What I wonder is: can a tolerence of contact be taught or will it always be the inclination of these three to shy away from banging around?
 

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Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
This isn't meant to hate on these three, but I think we can all agree there are weaknesses in each of their games. We've talked about their weakesses seperately in dozens of threads, but I think there is reason to discuss the three of them together.

We've theorized about age, laziness, lack of brainpower, lack of experience, bad attitudes and all sorts of reasons neither Curry, Crawford or Robinson perform well on a regular basis and in particular, why none of the three are especially effective on defense. All of the theories put forth probably have at least some merit.

But I see something in all three of them -- something that they all have in common, and something that I think is one of the most significant factors contributing to their struggles.

All three of them hate contact.

Why doesn't Crawford try to draw charges the way Kirk does? Why doesn't he stick to his man on defense like white on rice? Why does he have lapses where he settle for awkward J's instead of taking it to the hole?

ERob is somewhat more willing to drive, but do you ever see him taking a charge or diving after a loose ball or playing physical D?
And he drives when he's open. Rarely will he go into traffic to draw a foul. Compare with Pippen. Or Dupree.

Eddy? The man should be all *** and elbows under the boards, like a 7 foot Karl Malone. Nothing could be further from the truth. He readily admits he's never been in a fight in his life. He doesn't clog the lanes, is not a shot blocker, pound for pound is not an effective rebounder and does not even clog up the lanes anywhere near the way a man his size should. Just compare his willingness to engage in contact with Chandlers.

I think the common denominator is none of the three are willing to get bumped around and in return, none are willing to do any bumping themselves. No wonder Norm is 2 steps away from a straightjacket. That type of thinking is as far from the Sloan/Van Lier way of thinking and playing as you can get.

What I wonder is: can a tolerence of contact be taught or will it always be the inclination of these three to shy away from banging around?
Good read TomBoerwinkle#1!

I agree.thing is this is a contact sport and none of the last 15 years championship teams played bad D(I start with Pistons).
thats why i think we should package those 3 together with Fizer,and try and get something worthy,long turm.
the will for contact can hardly be taught and I find it hard to believe EC will become the intense ruling C we want.ok,he might score 20 pnts at his prime,and probably be a good C,but he will allways be a soft spot on D,and won't over fight for positioning with his man on rebound.many times guards get rbds on his expense 'under his nose'.we can get good value by giving up a package like that(for now)and keep hoping we can get Emeka to rule our paint.
 

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Very good point. Lets move on, further in that direction.

They ( EC and Jamal) are waiting for signing big contracts before they are willing to sacrifice themselves. And they have the same
agent who probably gives them a lot advices on that matter, including to maintain a good statistic instead.
 

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Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!


All three of them hate contact.....
bingo TB#1.

And i for one am not cynical enough to believe that ED and JC are waiting to sign big contracts before they are willing to "sacrafice" themselves, Bulls96, sorry. I don't think they have it in them.

That said, I do think E-Rob has shown a little more grittiness in his past few games.
 

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So what you are basically saying is they are soft? But who never thought they were soft, I thought their play spoke volumes about them.

Eddy Curry is soft as margarine and E-Rob and Jamal are right up there with him.
 

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Re: Re: MY theory on "what's wrong with Eddy" -- and Jamal and ERob too...

Originally posted by <b>mizenkay</b>
That said, I do think E-Rob has shown a little more grittiness in his past few games.
agree, esp. on defense. he still can't dribble drive, but he should crash the offensive glass more with those hops.
 

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people forget robinson used to play some PF for char. so i doubt he is as afarid of contact as he is made out to be

curry is offensively aggresive and does take position for posting up when the mood strikes him, he has done it before and anyone who has watched him play can say they've seen it numerous times...does he always exert himself to this degree on defense ....no but thats more mentality of being offensive minded than being a wuss or he wouldn't do it on the offensive side of the ball

JC ...well its not his nature ,thats my take he doesn't have a pyhsical game he odesn't have the body for it either he's a somewhat stringy 195 much like kerry kittles whom i've never seen post up anyone even when he was dropping 17-18 aa game. JC isn't the best with screens on defense. but he has at times sucked it up and drove the lane so its in him to do as well

i dont see it as fear or they would have been weeded out for it already
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
So what you are basically saying is they are soft? But who never thought they were soft, I thought their play spoke volumes about them.

Eddy Curry is soft as margarine and E-Rob and Jamal are right up there with him.
True. The soft rap has been attached to each of them before. But soft can mean a lot of things.

This is not necessarily new news about any of the three, but more often than not, the problem is couched in different terms. Fact is, these guys don't like to get bumped.

I'm mostly a pickup game at the Y kinda guy, but even there, you see every kind. Personally, I have no qualms about using my butt to gain position under the basket and feel shame if I stoop to calling a foul. On the other hand I see guys who call "I got one" at the slightest brush. Weak little men, I call them.

Anyway, I'm not trying to drive anyone out of town with this post. Actually, I like all three players -- I've been down on ERob, but respect what he's done of late. I admire JCraw's skills and have always hoped and prayed Eddy will develop into the monster I know he can be.

But yes, soft is the word. Adversity to any touching, in particular. I hope hope hope toughness and a willingness to take bumps and bruises can be taught, because I truly believe that if these three could become absolutely fearless, we could very well be contenders.

I admit it is a big if. And believe it or not, I swore off the Kool-Aid. Cold turkey.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
people forget robinson used to play some PF for char. so i doubt he is as afarid of contact as he is made out to be

curry is offensively aggresive and does take position for posting up when the mood strikes him, he has done it before and anyone who has watched him play can say they've seen it numerous times...does he always exert himself to this degree on defense ....no but thats more mentality of being offensive minded than being a wuss or he wouldn't do it on the offensive side of the ball

JC ...well its not his nature ,thats my take he doesn't have a pyhsical game he odesn't have the body for it either he's a somewhat stringy 195 much like kerry kittles whom i've never seen post up anyone even when he was dropping 17-18 aa game. JC isn't the best with screens on defense. but he has at times sucked it up and drove the lane so its in him to do as well

i dont see it as fear or they would have been weeded out for it already
If you don't accept the dislike for contact theory, do you then write them off for laziness or lack of desire? I think my theory is much less of an indictment of these guys. If it is really a case of no will to put forth effort, we are truly sunk.

:sigh:
 

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That'll do Pigley...
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Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!


True. The soft rap has been attached to each of them before. But soft can mean a lot of things.

This is not necessarily new news about any of the three, but more often than not, the problem is couched in different terms. Fact is, these guys don't like to get bumped.

I'm mostly a pickup game at the Y kinda guy, but even there, you see every kind. Personally, I have no qualms about using my butt to gain position under the basket and feel shame if I stoop to calling a foul. On the other hand I see guys who call "I got one" at the slightest brush. Weak little men, I call them.

Anyway, I'm not trying to drive anyone out of town with this post. Actually, I like all three players -- I've been down on ERob, but respect what he's done of late. I admire JCraw's skills and have always hoped and prayed Eddy will develop into the monster I know he can be.

But yes, soft is the word. Adversity to any touching, in particular. I hope hope hope toughness and a willingness to take bumps and bruises can be taught, because I truly believe that if these three could become absolutely fearless, we could very well be contenders.

I admit it is a big if. And believe it or not, I swore off the Kool-Aid. Cold turkey.
You're correct in that there are different types of soft. When I think soft about these guys, I feel they are more soft in the sense that they have it in the their minds that they don't like contact so much that when they tend to get contact, they get injured.

Sorta like a hypocondriac situation. They are just soft in their heads and how they play the game.
 

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Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!


If you don't accept the dislike for contact theory, do you then write them off for laziness or lack of desire? I think my theory is much less of an indictment of these guys. If it is really a case of no will to put forth effort, we are truly sunk.

:sigh:
players play in different ways

crawford doesn't take so many charges but his steals are up

curry is offensive minded at the moment but i've seen games where he rebounded consistently and tried to be a pyhsical presence

these two are developing their games most players aren't what they are at their stage in their careers , dont believe me look at the roster

pippen was considered extrmely soft early into his career even though at 25 he basically thawrted one of the best player his era in magic johnson in the finals

antonio davis wasn't even in the nba until 25

jerome was a bit more offensive minded in his earleir years but settled into a role player, i felt he had the ability to be a more complete player and he didn't work hard enough for it

corie was pretty much a fringe type , a backup and 3rd stringer

ditto for brunson

fizer a year ago looked like he may turn into a star ...now its like who knows , he may just need time to fully recoop from his acl but he may just be finished or somewhere in between

as for e-rob is it laziness ?

i dont think so i think he is just one of those players things have to right for , for him to be better than what he currently is( a fringe starter) .

e-rob can shoot well and yet he gets no plays run for him in the bulls offense and hasn't since he's been here. he can play D when the mood strikes him but he tends not to sustain it

maybe this is just who he is and JK misvalued him be that as it may i feel its a mistake not to find out for surethe bulls should try to make him more important to the bulls offense and see if he is ready for more instaed of making essensially JYD the weaker version and trying to make him a defender who rebounds and runs the break for points.

so i dont look at it they suck or there is some major problem i look at it as the fans are putting too much into this expecting too much too soon because of a lack of other players to concentrate on , pip is on his last legs, AD as well , JYD is what he is and not a star player among them anymore , so the hope rides on the younger ones and they aren't ready to be consistent yet
 

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Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!


i dont see it as fear or they would have been weeded out for it already

ok, not to split hairs or anything, but TB#1 said in his original post that he thinks they "hate" contact, not that they fear it. i think there is a BIG difference! think about it. and IMO, HongKong's point is valid about the fear of injury. they just don't want to mix it up!


we could debate this on and on.


but here is a question, and pardon my ignorance but , did eddy, jamal or e-rob play any other sports growing up other than basketball? (i think the answer is no but i just want to make sure) i ask this because it was a point of discussion in the other "what's wrong with eddy" thread - about MJ, for example, playing tackle football and little league baseball as a kid and therefore learning from a very early age about mixing it up and being tough. the answer may have absolutely NOTHING to do with what is going on with these guys, or EVERYTHING. who the heck knows anymore!!!

:sigh:
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Grinchy,

the way I read your response is basically:

Yeah, TB#1, you are right. Eddy and Jamal aren't fond of contact and it shows sometimes, but they'll play through that, mature and develop.

I hope you are right. I really want to believe it. Sometimes I do believe it. Other times, I get this feeling in the pit of my stomach...

Your take on ERob seems to be he is more of a "when the mood suits him" kind of guy (admittedly you pin that label on Curry somewhat as well). Probably true as to both. But I believe that the "mood suits them" syndrome is the struggle between having an aversion to contact and a knowledge that they need to buck it up and get tough. My point is, I hope they have it in them to win that struggle.

As you say, Pip did overcome that hurdle. That made him into a special player. I hope against hope our guys can learn that by example.

You brng up Fizer. What a puzzle. Has shown guts and determination and skill and hunger. Now its gone, gone, gone and gone. My impression is he can be a pretty damn fine player - not an all-star, but a consistent starter for 5 years and a key back up for several more years -- but not here. I think the losing, and the inconsistancy and the personell and management changes have taken their toll with Marcus. He is demoralized and needs a complete change of scenery, at which point, if he can pull it all together, he stands an excelent chance to thrive.
 

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Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
Grinchy,

the way I read your response is basically:

Yeah, TB#1, you are right. Eddy and Jamal aren't fond of contact and it shows sometimes, but they'll play through that, mature and develop.

I hope you are right. I really want to believe it. Sometimes I do believe it. Other times, I get this feeling in the pit of my stomach...

Your take on ERob seems to be he is more of a "when the mood suits him" kind of guy (admittedly you pin that label on Curry somewhat as well). Probably true as to both. But I believe that the "mood suits them" syndrome is the struggle between having an aversion to contact and a knowledge that they need to buck it up and get tough. My point is, I hope they have it in them to win that struggle.

As you say, Pip did overcome that hurdle. That made him into a special player. I hope against hope our guys can learn that by example.

You brng up Fizer. What a puzzle. Has shown guts and determination and skill and hunger. Now its gone, gone, gone and gone. My impression is he can be a pretty damn fine player - not an all-star, but a consistent starter for 5 years and a key back up for several more years -- but not here. I think the losing, and the inconsistancy and the personell and management changes have taken their toll with Marcus. He is demoralized and needs a complete change of scenery, at which point, if he can pull it all together, he stands an excelent chance to thrive.
basically i've seen my share of young players develop and its not just skills they have to develop its mentality and style of play, most simply cant play the eway they did in college or high school and they have to learn to deal with what the opposition does as much as their own individual ability,it was the main thing cartwright was trying to instill and in time i feel he will be shown to be right on that and you pretty much have it as to my thoughts on the 3 players in question i think its more how they want to do as opposed to if they can play another way .

when e-rob wasn't secure in his nba career he did what he had to do just like dupree is now, the test of a player is when they are secure sometimes because then they are being themselves instead of playing for others

in a way e-rob fails that test to me, but there is time for the other 2 to improve on this
 

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Discussion Starter #15
OK, Grinch my friend. I agree with your analysis. Now: do you think that Eddy and/or Jamal have the moxie to develop the toughness they need?

And is there still hope for ERob to renew the fire on a regular basis or is he lost?

I think these are key questions in evaluating what to do with the rest of the season.
 

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Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
OK, Grinch my friend. I agree with your analysis. Now: do you think that Eddy and/or Jamal have the moxie to develop the toughness thay need?

And is there still hope for ERob to renew the fire on a regular basis or is he lost?

I think these are key questions in evaluating what to do with the rest of the season.
with e=rob there is no question he has what it takes he proves 1ce or 2ce a year when his minutes are cut , he then turns it up a notch to earn more time

but imo he could be much more effective if they would run plays for him to keep him involved and because he is a good shooter, it may help him to stay at that level of intensity , in my mind it doesn't hurt to try and see

for eddy it will come in time because thats just my take on him , he has a bit of bully in him and when he matures there will be few that can deal with him ...his problem mostly comes from the super agressive types who guard him , players like antonio davis who are pyhsicAL and aggresive and are good defenders with a lil' athletic ability. the avg. center cant deal with him now if they would just pound the ball to him where he wants it as opposed to where the offensive scheme needs him to be

with JC he makes these efforts once a week to drive consistently when his shot isn't falling, he has toughness he needs consistency and should be getting it sooner than curry
 
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