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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
EASTERN LEAGUE:
--european division
---London, England
---Paris, France
---Madrid, Spain
---Rome, Italy
---Berlin, Germany
---Moscow, Russia
---Athens, Greece

--us east division
---Boston, Massachusetts
---New York, New York
---Detroit, Michigan
---Chicago, Illinois
---Washington D.C.
---Atlanta, Georgia
---Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

WESTERN LEAGUE:
--asian division
---Beijing, China
---Hiroshima, Japan
---Taipei, Taiwan
---Hong Kong, China
---San Fernando, Philippines
---Tokyo, Japan
---Sydney, Australia

--us west division
---Utah
---Portland, Oregon
---Phoenix, Arizona
---Houston, Texas
---Sacramento, California
---Los Angeles, California
---Denver, Colorado

HOW IT GOES DOWN:
Play is constrained within leagues. Heavy division play, similar to Major League Baseball. In other words: highly unbalanced. The inter-league matchups will be very short trips once-per-season. Inter-division play will involve long delays between games due to travel and time-zone issues, in addition there will be few home-and-home situations between divisions, those will only occur during intra-division play due to the severe travel.

WHY I CHOSE WHERE I DID:
I don't know that much about foreign cities. I don't know completely where basketball is the most popular, or which cities in which nations are the best suited to basketball. I mostly went by a listing of the most populace cities overseas. Some San Antonio fans may be very incensed that I chose to remove their team in favor of keeping Houston and Dallas... however I decided that a team with a very solid management and a very good long-term set of contracts would be a very good choice to move overseas, giving a city in another nation a strong chance at a championship. I tried, for the most part, though... to keep the old-school teams in their cities. I kept as many originals as I could, such as LA (I would assume the Lakers stay, Clippers move), Portland, New York, Boston... I went less on success for the most part as on tradition (outside of the San Antonio idea).

Anyway, I know this is VERY VERY far from perfect, and overall probably 95% ridiculous. But the other thread on foreign basketball spawned this idea... and I thought it would be nifty to try to put something together.


Suggestions? Ideas? Opinions?
 

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The only thing i would probably suggest is instead of Hiroshima, maybe Tokyo, and Hong Kong is classed as part of China, not Japan, other then that cool as.

By the way i have been looking on this site for nearly two years, and have only just decided to register today......its been a long time coming, catchyas
 

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Restore the Roar
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Discussion Starter #3
BevDog said:
The only thing i would probably suggest is instead of Hiroshima, maybe Tokyo, and Hong Kong is classed as part of China, not Japan, other then that cool as.

By the way i have been looking on this site for nearly two years, and have only just decided to register today......its been a long time coming, catchyas
I was actually thinking of Tokyo when I put Hong Kong... I don't know what was going through my head. I wouldn't want three Chinese teams, despite the massive size of the nation... so I altered it slightly in response to your post... added Tokyo, Japan instead of Hiroshima... fixed Hong Kong to be in China because I'm an idiot, and removed the other Chinese city I had in there.

My bad. And glad my thread could be a part of your first post, may you have many more good ones!


-Chris.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
shookem said:
Cool idea, not very international,
where's the team in Canada or Mexico?
where's any mention of Africa?


you just picked some bad cities in Europe, some cities with little or no interest in basketball.


like i said, cool idea, but not very "international".
13 Nations represented through 28 teams. I think it is actually QUITE international.

However, it is far from perfect.

I failed to include Africa, after some thought, due to the fact that I believed travel was too extreme as it was. I tried to give myself a reason to add an African thing, and if anything I suppose I could replace... possibly Rome, Italy with Cairo, Egypt? I'm not sure there.

In addition to my choice of bad cities due to little or no interest in basketball, where would you suggest? I went by a list of largest cities, and therefore largest potential markets... I stated that I didn't understand how popularity overseas went. I'd like some suggested alternatives instead of a broad statement that I screwed up.

And I definitely admit to screwing up on omitting Mexico. However failing to include Canada was pretty much on purpose... the market has simply not been there thus far. I will admit that Toronto has a nice little base of fans, but it hasn't taken off. However, I suppose I could see moving Dallas into Mexico... maybe even Phoenix.


-Chris.
 

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ChrisWoj said:
EASTERN LEAGUE:
--european division
---London, England
---Paris, France
---Madrid, Spain
---Rome, Italy
---Berlin, Germany
---Moscow, Russia
---Athens, Greece

--us east division
---Boston, Massachusetts
---New York, New York
---Detroit, Michigan
---Chicago, Illinois
---Washington D.C.
---Atlanta, Georgia
---Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

WESTERN LEAGUE:
--asian division
---Beijing, China
---Hiroshima, Japan
---Taipei, Taiwan
---Shanghai, China
---San Fernando, Philippines
---Hong Kong, Japan
---Sydney, Australia

--us west division
---Utah
---Portland, Oregon
---Phoenix, Arizona
---Houston, Texas
---Sacramento, California
---Los Angeles, California
---Denver, Colorado

HOW IT GOES DOWN:
Play is constrained within leagues. Heavy division play, similar to Major League Baseball. In other words: highly unbalanced. The inter-league matchups will be very short trips once-per-season. Inter-division play will involve long delays between games due to travel and time-zone issues, in addition there will be few home-and-home situations between divisions, those will only occur during intra-division play due to the severe travel.

WHY I CHOSE WHERE I DID:
I don't know that much about foreign cities. I don't know completely where basketball is the most popular, or which cities in which nations are the best suited to basketball. I mostly went by a listing of the most populace cities overseas. Some San Antonio fans may be very incensed that I chose to remove their team in favor of keeping Houston and Dallas... however I decided that a team with a very solid management and a very good long-term set of contracts would be a very good choice to move overseas, giving a city in another nation a strong chance at a championship. I tried, for the most part, though... to keep the old-school teams in their cities. I kept as many originals as I could, such as LA (I would assume the Lakers stay, Clippers move), Portland, New York, Boston... I went less on success for the most part as on tradition (outside of the San Antonio idea).

Anyway, I know this is VERY VERY far from perfect, and overall probably 95% ridiculous. But the other thread on foreign basketball spawned this idea... and I thought it would be nifty to try to put something together.


Suggestions? Ideas? Opinions?
Interesting, but I think it's probably to BIG. I'm not against globalization, I really do think it's an interesting idea. But, I don't know, is it really necessary? Maybe you can explain more about the benefit of this. Why do you think this is good?

What's interesting from this IMO is how is this league going to co-exist with some of the european leagues? or the Asian leagues? Of course there are pros and cons about this. The good thing is some of the developing countries get to watch NBA level basketball. They can learn. But, this is probably not very good for some other countries. Imagine an NBA team in Italy or Spain. If the IBA turns out to be a big hit, the domestic league (Italian or Spanish) will lost its fanbase. And you know they're not going to be very happy. This is also a problem for other countries like say Japan, who we can say a developing country in terms of basketball, if the IBA comes to town, who's going to watch the Japanese league? how are the Japanese players going to develop if people don't care much about them anymore. The IBA league itself, will be faced with a problem whether they can sell tickets or not? In England or other european countries, they have to compete with soccer. And soccer match in europe is pretty busy, just like the NBA. They have domestic league, they have european league. and some others. Competing with soccer in Europe is pretty tough, and don't forget they also have their national basketball league, and the euroleague. A team in China? I think that's going to be very tough to be realized. I think the IBA potentially will cause problems that are very complex, which can be either related to basketball or not.

I think what would be easier to realize and probably pretty good for a start before going way global, is organizing an event called Basketball World Club Tournament. Pick 8 champions from all over the world: NBA champion, Euroleague Champion, top 4 european team (a country can only be presented by one team), and top 2 asian team. The format of the competition is similar to playoff but instead of 5-5-5-7, this is going to be 3-3-3-3/5. Too save time and avoid tiredness, it would be better if the event is held in one country only. Kinda like the All-Star games, where it goes to different city every year. One time it's held in China, next in Spain, the year after that in the US. I remember about 10 years ago there used to be a game during the off season just before the season starts where the NBA champs would play the European Champs. I remember watching Barkley's Suns playing against Bologna if I'm not wrong. The Suns won.
 

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ChrisWoj said:
And I definitely admit to screwing up on omitting Mexico. However failing to include Canada was pretty much on purpose... the market has simply not been there thus far. I will admit that Toronto has a nice little base of fans, but it hasn't taken off. However, I suppose I could see moving Dallas into Mexico... maybe even Phoenix.
-Chris.
so you would say that Mexico has more basketball fans then Toronto....sigh, another ignorant american..jj..Toronto is the fourth largest media market in NA, ahead of almost all the markets you placed americans teams in. Toronto is one of the most populated and international cities in NA, not a single american city has as much divisity as Toronto, not one. Secondly, the Toronto market is connected to the rest of Ontario, which is a bigger market then where ever you are from bud.
Toronto is home to more Fortune 500 countries then every other american city listed other then NY. Toronto has more corporate money floating around then almost every other city you named, internationally!


cool idea bud, but you really don't know much about international metro's.
 

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Restore the Roar
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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
shookem said:
so you would say that Mexico has more basketball fans then Toronto....sigh, another ignorant american..jj..Toronto is the fourth largest media market in NA, ahead of almost all the markets you placed americans teams in. Toronto is one of the most populated and international cities in NA, not a single american city has as much divisity as Toronto, not one. Secondly, the Toronto market is connected to the rest of Ontario, which is a bigger market then where ever you are from bud.
Toronto is home to more Fortune 500 countries then every other american city listed other then NY. Toronto has more corporate money floating around then almost every other city you named, internationally!


cool idea bud, but you really don't know much about international metro's.
You don't know much about attendance figures. I stated in my own post that Toronto had a GOOD BASE... but I also stated that basketball OBVIOUSLY hasn't taken off in Toronto.

Attendance in Toronto hasn't been above 20,000 since their FIRST SEASON. In Charlotte, during the Hornets era, as soon as attendance dipped below 20,000 they were looking to move out of town. Your statements about Toronto's diversity, potential, and potential have no bearing when the team SIMPLY DOESN'T DRAW. Charlotte isn't 1/5 the size of Toronto in terms of market size and such, but they managed to pull 23,000+ for 11 seasons, compared to Toronto's 1 season over 20,000.

Seriously, that area of Canada has shown almost no interest in basketball and every comment you just made is completely and totally moot. I'm not saying that 20,000 is a must-have number... many NBA teams stick around the 19,000 mark. But Toronto simply hasn't been up there once, even in their most successful seasons... Most teams, in a near-playoff year, jump to about 20,000. Toronto hasn't.


-Chris.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
RSP83 said:
Interesting, but I think it's probably to BIG. I'm not against globalization, I really do think it's an interesting idea. But, I don't know, is it really necessary? Maybe you can explain more about the benefit of this. Why do you think this is good?

What's interesting from this IMO is how is this league going to co-exist with some of the european leagues? or the Asian leagues? Of course there are pros and cons about this. The good thing is some of the developing countries get to watch NBA level basketball. They can learn. But, this is probably not very good for some other countries. Imagine an NBA team in Italy or Spain. If the IBA turns out to be a big hit, the domestic league (Italian or Spanish) will lost its fanbase. And you know they're not going to be very happy. This is also a problem for other countries like say Japan, who we can say a developing country in terms of basketball, if the IBA comes to town, who's going to watch the Japanese league? how are the Japanese players going to develop if people don't care much about them anymore. The IBA league itself, will be faced with a problem whether they can sell tickets or not? In England or other european countries, they have to compete with soccer. And soccer match in europe is pretty busy, just like the NBA. They have domestic league, they have european league. and some others. Competing with soccer in Europe is pretty tough, and don't forget they also have their national basketball league, and the euroleague. A team in China? I think that's going to be very tough to be realized. I think the IBA potentially will cause problems that are very complex, which can be either related to basketball or not.

I think what would be easier to realize and probably pretty good for a start before going way global, is organizing an event called Basketball World Club Tournament. Pick 8 champions from all over the world: NBA champion, Euroleague Champion, top 4 european team (a country can only be presented by one team), and top 2 asian team. The format of the competition is similar to playoff but instead of 5-5-5-7, this is going to be 3-3-3-3/5. Too save time and avoid tiredness, it would be better if the event is held in one country only. Kinda like the All-Star games, where it goes to different city every year. One time it's held in China, next in Spain, the year after that in the US. I remember about 10 years ago there used to be a game during the off season just before the season starts where the NBA champs would play the European Champs. I remember watching Barkley's Suns playing against Bologna if I'm not wrong. The Suns won.
I agree with all of the points you make on how tough it would be. I never really stated that it would likely become a reality... but I was messing around with and trying to find a possible potential way of formulating it just on the pure idea.

Concerning your thoughts on smallish foreign leagues failing as a result of this, if this were to come to fruition... that's really like stating concern for the existence of the Continental Basketball Association because of the NBA. Those leagues exist because of the lack of major basketball in their nations. If the NBA came to their nations it MIGHT drive them out, but more likely they would only be driven into the ground if they were run by poor management (like, say, if they hired Isaiah Thomas to run them). In all reality, having one team in Italy for the IBA wouldn't drive an entire league into the ground. Especially if that team was an up-rooted NBA franchise. That league wouldn't have its players torn away from it because of one team, and it likely would continue to operate on a similar level of popularity as it had before.


-Chris.
 

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1 Detroit 22,076
2 Dallas 20,032
3 Chicago 19,977
4 Miami 19,856
5 New York 19,505
6 Cleveland 18,981
7 Utah 18,841
8 LA Lakers 18,812
9 San Antonio 18,278
10 Philadelphia 17,710
11 Phoenix 17,609
12 Denver 17,500
13 Sacramento 17,317
14 Minnesota 17,177
15 Toronto 17,081
16 Washington 17,063
17 LA Clippers 16,807
18 Indiana 16,806
19 Memphis 16,753
20 Seattle 16,426
21 Portland 16,415
22 Golden State 16,083
23 Houston 15,977
24 Boston 15,756
25 Milwaukee 15,597
26 New Jersey 14,841
27 Orlando 14,533
28 Charlotte 14,475
29 Atlanta 14,234
30 New Orleans 14,092

Boston, you included them, yet the average less fans in the stands then Toronto. Washington, ditto. Waaaay more people go to Raptors games then Hawks, yet they are in this plan. 700 hundred more fans (on average) in Philly then in TO, not exactly proving the point you're trying to make.

take a look at this list and then tell me my points are moot.
 

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Restore the Roar
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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
shookem said:
1 Detroit 22,076
2 Dallas 20,032
3 Chicago 19,977
4 Miami 19,856
5 New York 19,505
6 Cleveland 18,981
7 Utah 18,841
8 LA Lakers 18,812
9 San Antonio 18,278
10 Philadelphia 17,710
11 Phoenix 17,609
12 Denver 17,500
13 Sacramento 17,317
14 Minnesota 17,177
15 Toronto 17,081
16 Washington 17,063
17 LA Clippers 16,807
18 Indiana 16,806
19 Memphis 16,753
20 Seattle 16,426
21 Portland 16,415
22 Golden State 16,083
23 Houston 15,977
24 Boston 15,756
25 Milwaukee 15,597
26 New Jersey 14,841
27 Orlando 14,533
28 Charlotte 14,475
29 Atlanta 14,234
30 New Orleans 14,092

Boston, you included them, yet the average less fans in the stands then Toronto. Washington, ditto. Waaaay more people go to Raptors games then Hawks, yet they are in this plan. 700 hundred more fans (on average) in Philly then in TO, not exactly proving the point you're trying to make.

take a look at this list and then tell me my points are moot.
Read my entire post. Like I said, in playoff years most teams experience a spike. Toronto doesn't. Because, outside of their base, people don't seem to care.

EDIT: And I'm not sure where you got that list from? My list came from a compilation of http://hometown.aol.com/bradleyrd/apbr.html (don't be fooled by the AOL address, very very thorough site) and ESPN.com... your numbers don't jive with theirs. And I will agree on Boston's issues... I mostly included them based on their historical significance.

EDIT2: Also, notice that virtually all the teams I did keep had higher attendance. The only ones with lower attendance were based on either historical significance or the fact that those teams exist in the West where, well, attendance doesn't seem as high. Portland, Washington, Atlanta, Boston all on historical significance and Houston based on the need for a Texan team... especially if you, say, move Dallas to Mexico... or you could keep Dallas and move Houston to Mexico.

As you can see, that leaves Toronto really low on the attendance figures amongst teams kept, outside of teams only kept for historical significance.
 

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ChrisWoj said:
Concerning your thoughts on smallish foreign leagues failing as a result of this, if this were to come to fruition... that's really like stating concern for the existence of the Continental Basketball Association because of the NBA. Those leagues exist because of the lack of major basketball in their nations.
Overall your thoughts are more or less alright, but this part is completely wrong. You dont get the european thinking I guess. Its mostly about traditions and the level isnt that poor as you think. Those leagues exist and they are major leagues in european eyes. NBA is considered as a better league no doubt, but it is overseas and not that close to everyone personally. Im sure that real basketball fans dont want NBA in Europe, they want to extend pure basketball we have here. Of course theres a big part of people who dont care that much and stars would drag them into the stands. But most of the fans (real fans, the ones you call singing and dancing non-stop) Im sure would boycott such idea.

The offseason/preseason tournaments is the other thing. It doesnt cut into destroying the leagues we have here, so are appreciated. And I think from next year such tournaments with NBA teams will take part in Europe. I dont heard about format yet, but something will be organised for sure.
 

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That league, with a few changes, would be the biggest annual thing in world sport and as anyone who read my comments on the NBA strangling the game outside Nth America will know I believe we have to give top class Bball to places like Paris and London where there is most definitely a market.

The point about the national leagues suffering is moot but they would develop as in effect AAA leagues in places like Italy, Spain and China and AA in places like England and France. World BBall would just take off. Imagine the players in Spains AAA league aspiring to play for a madrid or barcelona IBA franchise? It could be organised on a major (IBA) league and Minor (national leagues) basis like workd well in baseball where Mexico, Venezuela etc are linked in. What a prospect and that would be mirrored worldwide. PLEASE let the commerce people make this happen.
 

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Before I saw this, I'd like to see something more like the Champion's Cup (I think its called) in soccer, where all of the top club teams in the world play each other. Before we start moving teams to China and ****, I think we should at least test the international waters for this type of product.
 

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I would exchange Rome with Milan, and London with Barcellona, Spain.

Basketball interest in Rome isn't very high, and in London it's almost nonexistent. Milan and Barcellona are basketball hotbeds.

It's an interesting idea, but what would the Midwest teams do, such as the Bulls, Pistons, and Pacers?

Unfortunately it's not very feasible, but it's pretty cool and unique.
 

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It would be nice indeed if this could be easy to pull up
 

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Fede said:
argentina and brazil?
Definitely gotta add Rio or Buenos Aires. I also think Toronto is worthy.

Also I don't know how some Americans feel, but I don't even consider Toronto really out there. I haven't been there, but it's only like 30 miles from Detroit and I get the sense its pretty much like your average American city. It's not like its Montreal or something.
 

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It is a good idea and I actually like it, but it won't happen in the distant future concerning all the issues - market, travelling, etc.

Someone mentioned a Champion's League-type (European Soccer) structure and I think that will be a good start, but it needs commitments from leagues across the globe. The NBA, for instance, has too long of a season to allow their players to play outside of this league. The NBA has to cut its season for about 2 months if the proposed 'Basketball Champions League' is to exist. That's too much for the NBA to give up, IMO.
 
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