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Discussion Starter #1
why is it so essential for a player to lead his team short of greatness? it seems to prove yourself a great player, you need to elevate a bad team to mediocrity (garnett, tmac). this is given, in many circles, far greater weight than playing great for a great team (kobe). the standard of achievement has changed. no more would the dominique's, gervin's, moncrief's, dantley's be burdened with the stigma of not winning, while those previously thought to be great because of how they contributed to a winning situation (frazier, magic, worthy, kareem, isiah) would be downgraded for not having proved the ability to carry a team to mediocrity (actually, kareem often did this prior to magic coming along - i guess once he proved that, the other 5 titles were gravy).

now i'm not saying that guys can't prove to be great players playing on teams that aren't great. i'm commenting more on the discounting of players BECAUSE they play on great teams. could you imagine dismissing magic as a great player because his teammates could also play ball? to say "i can't really tell if he's the real deal, i haven't seen him lead his team to an 8 seed for a bad team yet"? it used to be that we couldn't assume that players would rise to the occassion when the stakes were highest, because few actually did. now we assume anyone would elevate their games if given the opportunity, and discount the ones that actually have done it. it seems if anyone was traded to the lakers, they would immediately be downgraded, because any of their accomplishments after that point would be voided because they play with shaq.

hey ron, thanks for the props on the other thread.
 

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I understand what you are saying, and it as an attempt to protect Kobe, but you gave bad examples... Magic didn't play with anyone as dominant as Shaq.

The fact that Kobe plays with Shaq does not mean that he isn't a great player, but it means that when comparing him to other budding stars(T-Mac), winning championships isn't as big of deal as if he had done it himself...

Anyways, this topic has been exhausted, so I'm done discussing it.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
first off, nobody wins championships by themselves.

magic didn't play with anyone as dominant as shaq, but his overall team was much more talented. you could argue that la relies heavier on kobe than the 80's lakers did on magic.

to me, winning a championship is still a big deal. kobe being la's primary option in the 4th quarter and producing is a big deal. it may not be to everyone.

sorry if the topic has been exhausted. new here. but you don't have to announce you're done discussing it.
 

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Calm down spark plug.....

Winning a championship is a big deal, but not when comparing players like McGrady and Kobe, sorry, that's my opinion.....
 

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Sure winning a championship is a big deal for any player. But you have to ask yourself how much contribution he has for the team.

Kobe is proven to be a great finisher in the game. He can struggle all he wants during games but his job is to score in closing moments.

This was where Brian Hill with Shaq and Penny of the Orlando Magic didn't organize well like the way Phil Jackson is.

If you have to pick a player between Shaq and Kobe just to score a point? Kobe has the upper hands because he is a swingman I mean a perimeter player who can do it all.

I truly respect Kobe is a great player. Great players in general dont say what kinds but to me Kobe is a GREAT player as a finisher in the game now. But from his skills and athletic ability, I can assume Kobe can be a great player on his own but he has not has a chance to pove yet just like Carter, T-Mac and a few others don't have a chance to prove that they can win a ring with Shaq.
 

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kflo ur a Kobe fan ARENT U?!

Just say it,u think Kobe's a GOD?!?!

(this last remark is uncalled for and is edited out! It is basically attacking another poster. Please do NOT do that again.TR)
 

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Discussion Starter #7
lunatic, please, find another way to shoot down an argument, maybe even with some actual thought? but don't dismiss arguments by making assumptions with limited knowledge. taking a position means you're automatically a blind fan and can't think clearly? how bout i label you a hater and we'll be done? is that how things work around here?
 

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Originally posted by HEATLUNATIC
kflo ur a Kobe fan ARENT U?!

Just say it,u think Kobe's a GOD?!?!

EDITED OUT! (TR)
Let's hope posters do respect other's opinions as well. Klfo has some great points and you should not post it in the thread here if you have nothing to say. Thanks.
 

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Great post...

Some people seem to value a player that can perform well under low expectations, and even PRAISE him for having such medicore teamates. I can just see T-Mac or Garnett getting the MVP one day "I want to thank my teamates for being so horrible, and therefore making me more valuabe than Kobe, who wins championships with Shaq."

IMO, a guy has to win at least a playoff series before he can get consideration for greatness. The only true great players in the leauge are Shaq, Duncan and Kobe. They all have rings, coincedence?
 

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So, in order to be great you have to win a playoff series? OK, when Kobe wins a playoff series then I guess he can be fit into this group of "great" players.....
 

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Im NOT a hater,and just so were clear on this,their was NO disrespect intended.

I thought it was a GREAT post until I read the last few sentences,and realized u were talkn bout Kobe!
 

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Originally posted by Jemel Irief
Great post...

Some people seem to value a player that can perform well under low expectations, and even PRAISE him for having such medicore teamates. I can just see T-Mac or Garnett getting the MVP one day "I want to thank my teamates for being so horrible, and therefore making me more valuabe than Kobe, who wins championships with Shaq."

IMO, a guy has to win at least a playoff series before he can get consideration for greatness. The only true great players in the leauge are Shaq, Duncan and Kobe. They all have rings, coincedence?
So Mod, you are giving Duncan's credit now just to discredit T-Mac here?
 

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You want an example of a player who doesn't get respect because he never won a title:
Elgin Baylor (I am a little biased)

When he came to the league he turned the than lowly Lakers into a title contender...but he could never quite get them over the top. And IMO he doesn't get the respect as a player he deserves.
 

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yeah, i really don't see a championship as distinguishing the difference between who's great and who's only above average. many great players never won any championships. plus, you can't say that some of the current nba players without championships aren't great players...

and, well, when you're on a team of players who aren't all that great, it's more of a challenge to make your team good. on the other hand, if you're on a team of star-calliber players, of course your team is going to play well, and chances are, you really won't get a chance to shine as much as if you would if you were the only "star" on your team.
 

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This was a great post, KFLO. After reading through it, one can easily see the extremes fans can go to when they love their team or player.

Elgin Baylor most certainly was one of the greatest pfs in history and he doesn't get the respect he deserves because he didn't win that ring. There is one of the extremes I sensed in your post. The other is the direct opposite, naturally, giving someone who has won a ring more due than they deserve, for example, Luc Longley, which the Phoenix Suns did when they signed him to a ridiculous contract because he helped win the bulls 3 titles.

Also, slowly but surely Shaq is acquiring the place of one of the 50 greatest players of all time. Yes, he was placed on that list prematurely, but all could see that barring a freak accident, he would MORE than belong on that list shortly.

A player should be judged or evaluated on their effort and what they did to enhance their team's chances to win. That is, at the least, a starting point of honest critiquing that most fans could agree upon.

Again, great post, KFLO.
 

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This is a disaterous rivalry between moderators in the making, everyone try to chill, don't take this stuff personally!

;)
 
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