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New Twin tower (Okafor/Chandler vs. Okafor/Curry)

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Discussion Starter #1
For those who read my previous post, I am not a big fan of rebuilding a team through draft any more. But again we seem to be destined to lottery. I know there has been a lot of post regarding Okafor as if we already have our hand on him (thanks to rlucas, :) ).

My question here is that assuming we indeed draft Okafor, which combo twin tower do you prefer, guys?

Here i my take. I would go with Okafor/Chandler, in that way we are going to have center/PF combo who both can get 15ppg/10rb a game with both being a force on the defense. Chandler already prove himself being capable of doing just that with a healthy back and believing all the hype surrounding Okafor he sure sounds like another 15/10 guy. I would say this combo will dictate the game with more fire than Okafor/Curry.

I know some guys are still waiting for Curry to prove himself being 20/10 guys and if he eventually become one, then Okaofr/Curry can be bigger force than Okafor/Chandler.

But that's BIG IF. BIG. BIG IF.

If you ask me, I don't think Curry will ever be 20/10 guy nights in nights out. And he will always be a defensive liablity.

I think that having two guy who can contribute 15/10 every nihgt and defensive force at the same time is better option than one with 15/10 and another with 20 ppg yet defensive laiblity.

So if the time really come, I hope that we keep Chandler and build new twin tower with Okafor. We can always trade Curry and another to get either SG or SF depending on the aftermass of Crawford saga.

What do you think?
 

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IF we get Okafor, i say Curry and Okafor. The reason being Currys smooth offensive game. Chandler and Okafor arent go to guys up front yet. Though Okafor has shown tremendous improvement in his post game. Though I am a little concerned by how Okafor and Curry would complement each other. But it cant be worse then what Chandler and Curry have done together so I go Curry/Okafor based on that and based on Chandlers injury problems through his career. its not just the back, its everything with him. He is pretty much a guarantee to miss 15-20 games a year it seems like.
 

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Initially I thought Chandler and Okafor

Maybe now I lean towards Curry and Okafor

Next week I'll probably want to keep Chandler and Curry.

I'm not sure. Chandler/Okafor could be a monster defensively. If Okafor's post game is developing nicely, I like this.

However, Okafor's offense, while improving, may not be as developed as Curry's and may never be. Okafor/Curry could be good.

Then you look at what we have. Will Curry ever have the intensity and desire to fulfill his maximum potential? Will Curry ever develop the work ethic to succeed? Is being in Chicago best for Curry, and will he play his best in a city where he could have too many distractions?

As for Chandler, will he ever develop the strength so he can play center full time? While he has the intensity, does he have the skill to develop his game more? Will his back be a chronic problem?

Then there are questions with Okafor as well. If we are in the position to take Okafor, Paxson has to consider all the facts.
 

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LISTEN!!

Getting a guy like Okafor is the same damn thing as Brand. We keep Chandler and Curry and trade away Okafor and a big contract for something special in return. I am not saying Okafor is not special or even that he is probably better then Brand defenisvely BUT we dont need him. I would go after a big time player in return for him thats for sure.
 

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Re: LISTEN!!

Originally posted by <b>Modena360</b>!
Getting a guy like Okafor is the same damn thing as Brand. We keep Chandler and Curry and trade away Okafor and a big contract for something special in return. I am not saying Okafor is not special or even that he is probably better then Brand defenisvely BUT we dont need him. I would go after a big time player in return for him thats for sure.
It's different from Brand. Chandler was a high school player who was unproven. Okafor has proved himself at college level. He is more developed than Chandler was when he was drafted. It would be less of a risk to take Okafor and keep him and deal one of the C's, than What Krause with Chandler.

I see your point though. Okafor's value could be very high by draft day.
 

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Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
IF we get Okafor, i say Curry and Okafor. The reason being Currys smooth offensive game. Chandler and Okafor arent go to guys up front yet. Though Okafor has shown tremendous improvement in his post game. Though I am a little concerned by how Okafor and Curry would complement each other. But it cant be worse then what Chandler and Curry have done together so I go Curry/Okafor based on that ...
Okafor and Curry won't be able to both be in the game and be effective.

Okafor A/TO per game is a horrible 1 A and 2.9 TOs. Last year, it was even worse.

Granted, it's the pros, but Curry is just as bad. Per game is a horrible 0.8 A and 2.22 TOs. He is 19th in the league in TO per 48.

Chandler is not great, but considerably better than these two. 0.8 A to 1.4 TO per game.

So looks like Curry and Okafor would be incompatible as neither are good ballhandlers.

Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
and based on Chandlers injury problems through his career. its not just the back, its everything with him. He is pretty much a guarantee to miss 15-20 games a year it seems like.
Chandler has played as many games as Brand has in the last 3 years. More than Chris Webber. If Chandler's body could take the NBA as a 19 yr old and a 20 yr old, why shouldn't he do just fine as a 24 yr old and a 25 yr old?
 

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Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!


Okafor and Curry won't be able to both be in the game and be effective.

Okafor A/TO per game is a horrible 1 A and 2.9 TOs. Last year, it was even worse.

Granted, it's the pros, but Curry is just as bad. Per game is a horrible 0.8 A and 2.22 TOs. He is 19th in the league in TO per 48.

Chandler is not great, but considerably better than these two. 0.8 A to 1.4 TO per game.

So looks like Curry and Okafor would be incompatible as neither are good ballhandlers.



Chandler has played as many games as Brand has in the last 3 years. More than Chris Webber. If Chandler's body could take the NBA as a 19 yr old and a 20 yr old, why shouldn't he do just fine as a 24 yr old and a 25 yr old?
and I would have questions about keeping Brand and Webber too. Let me answer your question with a question. What indication do you have that Chandler will ever fill out that body? He is 21 years old and weighs LESS then he did as a 19 year. Not a good trend

And outside of Sacramento, what team has a 4 or 5 who has a high A/TO ratio? thats a stat that simply doesnt matter for inside players. No one looks at that for 4s or 5s. they look at that for PGs and 2s. Last time I checked, no one was expecting okafor to lead the team in assts
 

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Love your stuff, rlucus, but you are missing the boat with this Okafor over Chandler love affair.

Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
and I would have questions about keeping Brand and Webber too. Let me answer your question with a question. What indication do you have that Chandler will ever fill out that body? He is 21 years old and weighs LESS then he did as a 19 year. Not a good trend
Chandler is clearly weighs more, is bulker and is more muscular now than when he was 19. Pull some pictures and compare.

Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
And outside of Sacramento, what team has a 4 or 5 who has a high A/TO ratio? thats a stat that simply doesnt matter for inside players. No one looks at that for 4s or 5s. they look at that for PGs and 2s. Last time I checked, no one was expecting okafor to lead the team in assts
You can't have 2 players as bad in Curry and Okafor in the lineup and be good. Challenge for you - Find a 4\5 combo in the NBA that is nearly as bad. Even Chandler and one of these 2 guys is pushing it.
 

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Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
Love your stuff, rlucus, but you are missing the boat with this Okafor over Chandler love affair.



Chandler is clearly weighs more, is bulker and is more muscular now than when he was 19. Pull some pictures and compare.



You can't have 2 players as bad in Curry and Okafor in the lineup and be good. Challenge for you - Find a 4\5 combo in the NBA that is nearly as bad. Even Chandler and one of these 2 guys is pushing it.
I am missing the boat? I suggest you watch some UConn games

Okafors job is to run the floor and finish. And he does that as well as anyone I have seen since Duncan. Most people agree with this. Sure, there is no one who can handle him at his level. But he is doing it on defense and hustle as well

Now Chandler this summer weighed 218. Whatever he is right now i dont know. but he certainly isnt the 230-235 that he was as a rookie. And who cares really? As a 19 year old, he had one job to do. and that was get stronger. And has he done that Johnston? No not really. If he was doing his job, he would be 255.

Now for Okafor and Curry. offensively, they dont complement each other. i agree. Defensively, Okafor can play with anyone. Okafor will need to improve his J and considering where he is today vs where he was at the beginning of the year and you can see the improvement. I am not worried about it.

Now would you rather pay Chandler 8 mil or pay okafor 4 mil for basically the same thing? And I think its pretty clear that Okafors upside is as high as Chandlers. People will say 7-1 and blah blah blah. But I am talking about total game. okafor is a little more along then Chandler. And Id rather keep Curry over Chandler because of Currys ability to score
 

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you guys are talking like you already got the guy.. lol. you already had a twin tower... and traded him away... (Brand).... lol.... smart move by the way
 

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Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
Okafors job is to run the floor and finish. And he does that as well as anyone I have seen since Duncan.
If Okafor is the best finishing big in college since Duncan, it maybe b/c he has had no competition. I wouls wager to say that Amare and Chandler and Kwame Brown could have done a fairly good job of this in college.

Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
As a 19 year old, he had one job to do. and that was get stronger. And has he done that Johnston?
Well, the Bulls sent their shot coach to California to work with Chandler this summer so the Bulls did not get this message about "one job".


Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!If he was doing his job, he would be 255.
Where to you get this garbage? Most of what you read says that you can only add 5-7 pounds of muscle a year. Chandler also had a stomach problem last year. Would this be a good GM strategy not to take this into account.

Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>
Now for Okafor and Curry. offensively, they dont complement each other. i agree.
Thank you.

p.s. Still waiting for you to show an effective 4-5 combo in the NBA with a poor A to TO ratio.
 

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Okafor has work ethic and intelligence. Those alone is reason to choose him over one of our big guys who arent real intelligent players and havent improved enough in their time as a Bull.

I go back and forth between Curry and Chandler. Recently Currys been unstoppable so its hard to go against him. Especially since his man defense isnt half as bad as people make it out to be and his rebounding and intensity are the only things that are suspect.

I think his problem with rebounding has a lot to do with conditioning, its VERY hard to rebound consistently when you're tired. I know this for fact since I'm 6'8 myself and have played PF or C since 3rd grade in AAU/Club teams and high school ball. You have trouble finding your man and have trouble making the jump to get the ball when you're tired.

Currys intensity is the main thing that worries me. He seems like he doesnt care. The bottom line for me is, we should do whatever it takes to get Okafor this summer. If that means packaging our pick with Curry to get the top pick and change, then so be it. I think we'll have a bad enough record to get #1 though. Steadily building a squad with smart players like Hinrich and Okafor will pay off in the end IMO.
 

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Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!


If Okafor is the best finishing big in college since Duncan, it maybe b/c he has had no competition. I wouls wager to say that Amare and Chandler and Kwame Brown could have done a fairly good job of this in college.



Well, the Bulls sent their shot coach to California to work with Chandler this summer so the Bulls did not get this message about "one job".




Where to you get this garbage? Most of what you read says that you can only add 5-7 pounds of muscle a year. Chandler also had a stomach problem last year. Would this be a good GM strategy not to take this into account.



Thank you.

p.s. Still waiting for you to show an effective 4-5 combo in the NBA with a poor A to TO ratio.
But let me guess Chandler and Curry do? keep drinking the Kool Aid. i hear its good.

Oh and by the way, if you start at 230, and you add 7 lbds of muscle a year (which is light for a 7-1 player but thats a different story), and this is your thrid year, you should be 251, not 218 which was his weight this summer. Your welcome. Just as a comparison, Okafor showed up at Uconn at 6-10 220. Now is 255. And while he was putting on 35 lbds of muscle over 3 years, he was busy getting a 3.9 GPA in Finance. That, my friend, is what you call work ethic. By the way, The Bulls werent happy with his working out this summer. Hear any Pax comment. And the Bulls didnt send a shot coach to LA. Chandler hired one on his own.

As for Assts?To ratio. The wallace, Campbell and Okur front court is under a 1 ratio. And how do you know that Okafor wont develop into a good passer on this level? He isnt exactly told to pass the ball at Uconn.

Again the question must be asked. I know your out on the west coast so maybe Uconn plays too early for you. But have you actually watched Uconn play?

Okafor
 

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Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
Okafor showed up at Uconn at 6-10 220. Now is 255. And while he was putting on 35 lbds of muscle over 3 years, he was busy getting a 3.9 GPA in Finance. That, my friend, is what you call work ethic.
Truly impressive. Thats what makes me have no worry about his offensive game. His intelligence for the game also makes me think he'll be a superstar.
 

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the bottom line with me, sadly, is that I already feel like I'll be able to trust Okafor to bring a steady and valuable contribution to the team every single game. I think he'll be a bigtime game-changer on defense and above average (or better) on offense. I think he'll work on his weaknesses during offseasons, I think he'll mold his body even more into an NBA-durable one. But most importantly, I think he'll show up to play every night. I can't say that about Curry. It's his 3rd year and he's only had one burst of relatively consistent performance in his career. I love Tyson's heart and hustle, and I think he has good intentions, but this past summer was disappointing, he's still too thin, and his game has improved pretty gradually in his 2+ years.

I realize it'd be a risk to give up Tyson or Eddy, as I still think their ceilings are markedly higher than Emeka's, but at this point, I'm inclined to go for a surefire winning contributor in Emeka. Personally I think I'd pair him with Tyson, but any combination could make for a fierce frontline.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I still don't agree with you 100% rlucas. If Okafor is that good like you said, then it only makes more sense to go with Okafor/Chandler. Why do you want to keep Curry baffle me? Just becuase he can score? But truth is even his offense (Curry) is as inconsistent as Jamal's. And I think you choose Curry over Chandler based on the assumption he will somehow GET IT finally. But I doubt that part.

Curry may have better upside than Chandler but odds of that really happening isn't that good.


Again consider this every game (it's all hypotheical but bear with me);
1) Curry 20 points, less than 5 rebounds, 1 bk, Not so much on defense, together with Okafor 15 points, 10 rebounds, 2 bks and more.

2) Chandler 15 points or less, 10 rebounds or more, 2 bk or more together with Okafor about 15 points, 10 rebound or more, 2 bk or more and absoltley terror on defenseive end along with Chandler.


I DO believe option 2 will give us a lot better chance to win if we have a decent SG along with Kirk. If Curry has the same impact as 2) option he has to average 30 ppg to compensate his lack of defense ad I don't see it happening.

Besides unless your center is Hall of Fame material, you are not going to win a championship with a team built around the center anyway. And Curry is not and won't be ever.

I will go with Okafor/Chandler in a heart beat.
 

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Originally posted by <b>jsong</b>!
I still don't agree with you 100% rlucas. If Okafor is that good like you said, then it only makes more sense to go with Okafor/Chandler. Why do you want to keep Curry baffle me? Just becuase he can score? But truth is even his offense (Curry) is as inconsistent as Jamal's. And I think you choose Curry over Chandler based on the assumption he will somehow GET IT finally. But I doubt that part.

Curry may have better upside than Chandler but odds of that really happening isn't that good.


Again consider this every game (it's all hypotheical but bear with me);
1) Curry 20 points, less than 5 rebounds, 1 bk, Not so much on defense, together with Okafor 15 points, 10 rebounds, 2 bks and more.

2) Chandler 15 points or less, 10 rebounds or more, 2 bk or more together with Okafor about 15 points, 10 rebound or more, 2 bk or more and absoltley terror on defenseive end along with Chandler.


I DO believe option 2 will give us a lot better chance to win if we have a decent SG along with Kirk. If Curry has the same impact as 2) option he has to average 30 ppg to compensate his lack of defense ad I don't see it happening.

Besides unless your center is Hall of Fame material, you are not going to win a championship with a team built around the center anyway. And Curry is not and won't be ever.

I will go with Okafor/Chandler in a heart beat.
Chandler and Okafor do the same thing. Eventually youll need a player you can throw the ball into 15 times in a game in the playoffs and know he can get you some buckets. chandler cant do that, yet. Okafor might be able to, but maybe not on day one. Curry, if awake, can. Okafor and Curry, its easy
 

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Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
But let me guess Chandler and Curry do? keep drinking the Kool Aid. i hear its good.
At least my Kool Aid doesn't make me blind to ping pong balls bouncing the wrong way. Or turning a ZO-type center into a Tim Duncan power forward. Or comparing a 6-9 player to DROB.

Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
Oh and by the way, if you start at 230, and you add 7 lbds of muscle a year (which is light for a 7-1 player but thats a different story)
The Bulls knew that Chandler was light. His draft knock was that he was light. He has gotten stronger and more muscular.

Different players put on pounds differently. Metabolisms change over time.

If you are ready to throw TC overboard b/c he has not put on 30+ pounds in 3 years, fine.

just don't expect me to buy it.

Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
As for Assts?To ratio. The wallace, Campbell and Okur front court is under a 1 ratio.
Congrats, you found probably the worst 4-5 combo in the league. These three are a 3.6 Assist to 4.0 Turnovers.

However, that's still a far cry from Curry's and Okafor's combined 1.8 Assists to 5.1 TOs.

Curry and Okafur turnover the ball 2.8 times for every assist. Detroit's at 1.1 To per assist.

There is a huge correlation between A\TO ration and winning teams.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=teamstatmisc&season=2004&seasontype=2

The Bulls already need a Curry, whom is very bad, and Chandler whom is below average to improve in this regard. Why swap out "below average" and swap in in "very bad" in an area that needs improvement?

Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
And how do you know that Okafor wont develop into a good passer on this level? He isnt exactly told to pass the ball at Uconn.
Anything's possible. Statistically, it's a stretch.

Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
Again the question must be asked. I know your out on the west coast so maybe Uconn plays too early for you. But have you actually watched Uconn play?

Okafor
Yea, I have see Okafor play. I just ain't drinking that brand of Kool-Aid as the cure-all for the Bulls especially at the expense of TC whom is clearly a better fit with Curry.
 

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Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!


At least my Kool Aid doesn't make me blind to ping pong balls bouncing the wrong way. Or turning a ZO-type center into a Tim Duncan power forward. Or comparing a 6-9 player to DROB.



The Bulls knew that Chandler was light. His draft knock was that he was light. He has gotten stronger and more muscular.

Different players put on pounds differently. Metabolisms change over time.

If you are ready to throw TC overboard b/c he has not put on 30+ pounds in 3 years, fine.

just don't expect me to buy it.



Congrats, you found probably the worst 4-5 combo in the league. These three are a 3.6 Assist to 4.0 Turnovers.

However, that's still a far cry from Curry's and Okafor's combined 1.8 Assists to 5.1 TOs.

Curry and Okafur turnover the ball 2.8 times for every assist. Detroit's at 1.1 To per assist.

There is a huge correlation between A\TO ration and winning teams.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=teamstatmisc&season=2004&seasontype=2

The Bulls already need a Curry, whom is very bad, and Chandler whom is below average to improve in this regard. Why swap out "below average" and swap in in "very bad" in an area that needs improvement?



Anything's possible. Statistically, it's a stretch.



Yea, I have see Okafor play. I just ain't drinking that brand of Kool-Aid as the cure-all for the Bulls especially at the expense of TC whom is clearly a better fit with Curry.
Again, if you watch UConn play, youll know that Uconn doesnt put the ball in his hands to create for others. And again, if your going to say no to a guy like Okafor based on a stat that isnt pertinent to the position then that is fine. The point is, you want to hang on to Chandler because he is a hard worker or whatever. Thats fine. Id rather have Okafor and Curry. If you want to spend 8 mil a year for a 13-10 guy when you can draft a 13-10 guy and pay him 4 mil then you must have missed Econ 101

and by the way, when was the last time you saw Chandler and curry dominate in the same game? oh thats right, it hasnt happened. Not to say it will with Emeka. But it hasnt happened with Tyson. If that is complementing him better, then I think that not only have you drank the Kool-Aid, you have actually finished all of ours
 

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Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!


Again, if you watch UConn play, youll know that Uconn doesnt put the ball in his hands to create for others. And again, if your going to say no to a guy like Okafor based on a stat that isnt pertinent to the position then that is fine. The point is, you want to hang on to Chandler because he is a hard worker or whatever. Thats fine. Id rather have Okafor and Curry. If you want to spend 8 mil a year for a 13-10 guy when you can draft a 13-10 guy and pay him 4 mil then you must have missed Econ 101

and by the way, when was the last time you saw Chandler and curry dominate in the same game? oh thats right, it hasnt happened. Not to say it will with Emeka. But it hasnt happened with Tyson. If that is complementing him better, then I think that not only have you drank the Kool-Aid, you have actually finished all of ours
In truth you are right emeka is not in a position to create for others so his turnover ratio is always going to be bad as long as that is the case.But Chandler's ratio is better and he is basically in the same boat as okafor. To me Chandler is the better option he has the size and athletic ability okafor can only dream of and he will put on weight i have no doubt that at age 27 TC will be better as he will have the wieght by then and that will be the time to truly decide who was better.Top of the draft players are picked for their ceilings not their floors.
 
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