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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
RJ had an incredible game.

Kidd got another triple double.

But don't forget Vince Carter's effort tonight. This was the BEST game I've seen him play in a while (besides the 4/2 Heat).

1) 8-15. Now THAT'S how he should shoot EVERY night.

2) Do you remember any spectacular "holy crap how'd he do that" shot? No? Well neither do I. And that's good for the team. That means he didn't take any bad fall away or rope a dope shots. He took the ball to the rim or stepped into (not fall away from) rhythm jump shots.

3) He also made the right passes tonight. Give and go's and the pass before the pass. If the stats counted the pass before the assist as an assist as well (like in hockey), Vince would have at least 12 assists tonight. He made good decisions and that goes a long way in helping the team.

Great game by Vince tonight. :clap:
 
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furnace said:
RJ had an incredible game.

Kidd got another triple double.

But don't forget Vince Carter's effort tonight. This was the BEST game I've seen him play in a while.

1) 8-15. Now THAT'S how he should shoot EVERY night.

2) Do you remember any spectacular "holy crap how'd he do that" shot? No? Well neither do I. And that's good for the team. That means he didn't take any bad fall away or rope a dope shots. He took the ball to the rim or stepped into (not fall away from) rhythm jump shots.

3) He also made the right passes tonight. Give and go's and the pass before the pass. If the stats counted the pass before the assist as an assist as well (like in hockey), Vince would have at least 12 assists tonight. He made good decisions and that goes a long way in helping the team.

Great game by Vince tonight. :clap:

Didn't he score 43 and dominate the Heat recently? When you have all these offensive weapons, it's all about surprising your opponent so they cant get settled defensively. I hope he occasionally has games like this but to criticize Carter for being able to go off the charts on occasion is crazy.
 

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gotta love RJ
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
NetIncome said:
Didn't he score 43 and dominate the Heat recently? When you have all these offensive weapons, it's all about surprising your opponent so they cant get settled defensively. I hope he occasionally has games like this but to criticize Carter for being able to go off the charts on occasion is crazy.

1) I voted Vince for POTG after that Heat game. I've said this before and I'll say it again: it's not the 43 points that's important, it's the 16-27 (59% FG) that he shot to get there. Shooting at or above 50% means less wasted shots and more opportunities for other Nets to contribute such as 50% shooters RJ and Kristic.

2) I also voted Vince for POTG after the Hawk game where he shot 33%. Contrary to Nets1524512's prejudices, this shows that I am not partial to any particular Nets player and only want what's good for the team. This does not deter my firm belief that the Nets have a better chance to win if everyone makes good decisions and does not take amazingly acrobatic low percentage shots. There are exceptions to every rule and the Hawks game is one of them. Here is why: http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?t=256454
 

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Vince is not RJ nor do I wish for him to be. Vince Carter is known for his crazy shots. It has entertainment value and even a bit of nostalgic value. Vince won't stop making those crazy plays that we've become accustomed to him doing 1 or 2 times a game. It's just part of who he is and that's why many of us are fans of his.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
PHeNoM Z28 said:
Vince is not RJ nor do I wish for him to be. Vince Carter is known for his crazy shots. It has entertainment value and even a bit of nostalgic value. Vince won't stop making those crazy plays that we've become accustomed to him doing 1 or 2 times a game. It's just part of who he is and that's why many of us are fans of his.


The problem is, SOME games, he does it 9 or 10 times instead of 1 or 2 times. For example, during the Heat and Bobcats games he didn't really attempt those kinds of shots. He was stepping into rhythm jumpers all night vs Heat, no fade-aways.

Yes, those plays are entertaining, even sometimes when he misses. But I'd rather have the Nets win than a few entertaining plays.


I don't understand why people here are so sensitive to minor criticism of players. I've said this before and I'll say it again: every player on the Nets (including JKidd) has room to improve. It's just that the impact of Vince's improvents are much larger due to the % of shots he takes and touches he gets.
 

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I don't understand why some people here think others are being sensitive to criticism when they're simply just giving a retort. ;) Chill out dude.

Now, if you can give me one game where Vince has taken 9 or 10 crazy shots and caused the Nets to lose because of it, I'd like to know. I know it's kind of an unfair thing to ask for but you can't just say something like that without backing it up somehow.

Just different perspectives here I guess. You really care about the Nets winning and while I do too, I also care about being entertained. I don't want to feel like I'm watching baseball out there. I want to see crazy stuff happen. I'm not a coach so I don't really care about someone blowing an offensive set every once in a while. If you take away all the times Vince has done something he shouldn't try doing, it'd be taking away a lot of the reasons why I'm a fan of his, and a fan of the Nets right now. So yea...screw all the people that want Vince to be an RJ clone. Vince should be Vince, that's what the Nets traded for and that's what they should get. Sure I think Vince should improve his game, but that doesn't mean modeling it after RJ.
 

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Furnace, the biggest problem with your logic about Vince's FG% is that you overlook how important his offensive aggressiveness is to the team's success. He has to handle the ball and take shots to keep the defenses biased towards him, which is a huge factor in allowing the other players to get and make the high quality shots they get while he's on the court. Many, MANY of his misses don't come from crazy shots but from excellent drives that are challenged late by 3 or 4 defenders. That automatically means that there are easy offensive rebound/putback opportunities for his teammates. Most of the time, HE'S the one rebounding and putting back because he's so quick off the floor, as we've seen time and again from him. All those misses count as misses and lower his FG%, but why should he be criticized for missed shots when he's done the very thing that nearly everyone agrees is crucial to his (and the Nets') success, which is drive the ball aggressively? Another good number of misses come from decent midrange and baseline jumpers. They are good shots which he must take in order to keep defenses HONEST for his drives. If he's healthy, I don't care if he misses every good shot he takes (well, I care, of course, but I don't want that to diminish his attempts).

Shot selection will always be a controversy with him because part of his success, style, and appeal derives from his spectacular shotmaking ability. There is virtually no shot he thinks he can't make, and he's not far wrong. He once scored the game tying basket that permitted overtime (in a game he eventually won with a catch and shoot jumper) by driving and doing a crazy whilring dirvish to avoid 2 Hawk defenders while shooting with his back to the basket. Got the and 1. Without his creative ability and confidence to TAKE that shot, that game would have been a loss.

The same 30 foot jumpers that you criticize him for taking were HUGE factors in several games this year, including the win at Toronto where he hit one moments before the one that won the game. And the other thing I notice about Vince is that he actually shoots about as well from 28-30 feet as he does from just behind the line. In his particular muscle memory system, closer is not necessarily easier for him. And if he can make defenders play him out to 30 feet, can't you see how that benefits players like RJ and Krstic, who have that much more open space in which to maneuver before encountering help from his man?

As long as he is mixing up his offense to keep defenses guessing and honest, I can't complain about his FG%. Yes, he's missed a lot of shots this year that he was making last year and in other years. But that's just the part of basketball that can break your heart. I have a feeling that this year his shooting is going to peak in the playoffs, which, contrary to last year, will be what helps the Nets move into the final rounds.
 

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FOMW said:
Furnace, the biggest problem with your logic about Vince's FG% is that you overlook how important his offensive aggressiveness is to the team's success. He has to handle the ball and take shots to keep the defenses biased towards him, which is a huge factor in allowing the other players to get and make the high quality shots they get while he's on the court. Many, MANY of his misses don't come from crazy shots but from excellent drives that are challenged late by 3 or 4 defenders. That automatically means that there are easy offensive rebound/putback opportunities for his teammates. Most of the time, HE'S the one rebounding and putting back because he's so quick off the floor, as we've seen time and again from him. All those misses count as misses and lower his FG%, but why should he be criticized for missed shots when he's done the very thing that nearly everyone agrees is crucial to his (and the Nets') success, which is drive the ball aggressively? Another good number of misses come from decent midrange and baseline jumpers. They are good shots which he must take in order to keep defenses HONEST for his drives. If he's healthy, I don't care if he misses every good shot he takes (well, I care, of course, but I don't want that to diminish his attempts).

Shot selection will always be a controversy with him because part of his success, style, and appeal derives from his spectacular shotmaking ability. There is virtually no shot he thinks he can't make, and he's not far wrong. He once scored the game tying basket that permitted overtime (in a game he eventually won with a catch and shoot jumper) by driving and doing a crazy whilring dirvish to avoid 2 Hawk defenders while shooting with his back to the basket. Got the and 1. Without his creative ability and confidence to TAKE that shot, that game would have been a loss.

The same 30 foot jumpers that you criticize him for taking were HUGE factors in several games this year, including the win at Toronto where he hit one moments before the one that won the game. And the other thing I notice about Vince is that he actually shoots about as well from 28-30 feet as he does from just behind the line. In his particular muscle memory system, closer is not necessarily easier for him. And if he can make defenders play him out to 30 feet, can't you see how that benefits players like RJ and Krstic, who have that much more open space in which to maneuver before encountering help from his man?

As long as he is mixing up his offense to keep defenses guessing and honest, I can't complain about his FG%. Yes, he's missed a lot of shots this year that he was making last year and in other years. But that's just the part of basketball that can break your heart. I have a feeling that this year his shooting is going to peak in the playoffs, which, contrary to last year, will be what helps the Nets move into the final rounds.
Well said :clap: :clap: :clap:
 

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FOMW said:
Furnace, the biggest problem with your logic about Vince's FG% is that you overlook how important his offensive aggressiveness is to the team's success. He has to handle the ball and take shots to keep the defenses biased towards him, which is a huge factor in allowing the other players to get and make the high quality shots they get while he's on the court. Many, MANY of his misses don't come from crazy shots but from excellent drives that are challenged late by 3 or 4 defenders. That automatically means that there are easy offensive rebound/putback opportunities for his teammates. Most of the time, HE'S the one rebounding and putting back because he's so quick off the floor, as we've seen time and again from him. All those misses count as misses and lower his FG%, but why should he be criticized for missed shots when he's done the very thing that nearly everyone agrees is crucial to his (and the Nets') success, which is drive the ball aggressively? Another good number of misses come from decent midrange and baseline jumpers. They are good shots which he must take in order to keep defenses HONEST for his drives. If he's healthy, I don't care if he misses every good shot he takes (well, I care, of course, but I don't want that to diminish his attempts).

Shot selection will always be a controversy with him because part of his success, style, and appeal derives from his spectacular shotmaking ability. There is virtually no shot he thinks he can't make, and he's not far wrong. He once scored the game tying basket that permitted overtime (in a game he eventually won with a catch and shoot jumper) by driving and doing a crazy whilring dirvish to avoid 2 Hawk defenders while shooting with his back to the basket. Got the and 1. Without his creative ability and confidence to TAKE that shot, that game would have been a loss.

The same 30 foot jumpers that you criticize him for taking were HUGE factors in several games this year, including the win at Toronto where he hit one moments before the one that won the game. And the other thing I notice about Vince is that he actually shoots about as well from 28-30 feet as he does from just behind the line. In his particular muscle memory system, closer is not necessarily easier for him. And if he can make defenders play him out to 30 feet, can't you see how that benefits players like RJ and Krstic, who have that much more open space in which to maneuver before encountering help from his man?

As long as he is mixing up his offense to keep defenses guessing and honest, I can't complain about his FG%. Yes, he's missed a lot of shots this year that he was making last year and in other years. But that's just the part of basketball that can break your heart. I have a feeling that this year his shooting is going to peak in the playoffs, which, contrary to last year, will be what helps the Nets move into the final rounds.

Repped
 

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furnace said:
The problem is, SOME games, he does it 9 or 10 times instead of 1 or 2 times. For example, during the Heat and Bobcats games he didn't really attempt those kinds of shots. He was stepping into rhythm jumpers all night vs Heat, no fade-aways.

Yes, those plays are entertaining, even sometimes when he misses. But I'd rather have the Nets win than a few entertaining plays.


I don't understand why people here are so sensitive to minor criticism of players. I've said this before and I'll say it again: every player on the Nets (including JKidd) has room to improve. It's just that the impact of Vince's improvents are much larger due to the % of shots he takes and touches he gets.

[strike] Just shut up already [/strike]...As if his "entertaining" play has led to losses. We are about to have more wins this year, then we EVER had with your hero Kmart. Plus, FOMW already schooled you to the game anyway.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
First off, I want to thank both of you (PhenomZ28 & FOMW) for actually keeping your responses on topic and not a personal attack. I appreciate it since substantive debate no longer occurs very often here anymore.

I agree with alot of the points you guys make. I am just looking at it from a slightly different perspective, as PhenomZ28 said.

PhenomZ28:

1) Unfortunately, I don't have time right now (or archived tapes of games that I can refer) where I can list when Vince missed certain shots and cost us games. If you pay attention to my posts in general, I do try to give time stamps so people can reference certain plays (like my evaluation of Antoine Wright's and Vince Carter's defense during the last Detroit game). Anyways, the point here is that the less crazy shots and more open/rhythm shots he takes, the more he’s gonna make. The logic is simple: the easier the shot, the more likely it’s gonna go in. That’s why Hamilton and Parker have such good FG%: they work hard to take good shots instead of working hard on bad shots. Make sense? If he takes 9 or 10 bad shots, he might make 1 or make all 10. It depends on whether he’s “on fire” or not. If he takes 9 or 10 good shots, you can be sure he’s gonna make at least 5 of them.

2) You make a good point about not watching baseball. But watching Vince and the Nets dominate the competition at the cost of Vince making 2 instead of 10 crazy shots is a worthwhile trade off to me (example: Nets-Heat compared to Nets-Hawks).

FOMW:

1) I’m not saying don’t be aggressive. I’m saying take advantage of the fact that defenses are drawn to him and get the ball to the open man. The attention paid to Vince is an aspect of his game that not many other have, so the Nets should make full use of it.

Also, I am not talking about misses that come from excellent drives. Remember, I am not expecting him to shoot 80%. I just want him to go from 43% to 50%. That is a small adjustment. That means cutting out the bad fade-away jumpers whether they are in the lane or on the perimeter: not the good mid range jumpers in rhythm or good drives to the basket.

In summary: play like in the Heat or Bobcats game…make the pass before the assist since he draws so much attention, someone else will be open for a higher percentage shot. If defenses stop paying so much attention to him, then you have Vince one on one...and that is advantage -> Carter.

2) I agree a lot of his appeal is in his crazy shotmaking. I have no problem with doing that a few times a game. But when he shoots 7-21, a good portion of those 14 misses are shots he should not have taken. In any situation with less than 2 minutes left in the game, all bets are off because anything can happen. And it is precisely his confidence that he can make any shot anywhere anytime that shows he doesn’t need all those other shots to get hot.

3) The shots I’m talking about are not necessarily about distance, but about situation. If he’s 30 feet out but in rhythm and no one is guarding him, that’s a good shot to me. A bad 30 foot shot is when there are 7 seconds left on the clock and Joe Johnson is draped all over him (loss at Hawks 2/27).

4) Bottom line is, if Vince can make difficult shots that almost no one else can make, imagine how many he would make when he shoots regular ones.
 

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Here's my two cents on the whole topic. FG% can be very deceptive, because as in Vince's case 3pt shots and the amount of and 1's or in that instance the shot he threw up and missed all skew his FG%. Any good basketball statistician will tell you that TS% and eFgG% are better judges rather than FG%. (Hence why I asked for TS% this morning)

And here's what I found regarding Vince

eFG% 47.3
TS% 53.7

And so it doesnt confuse anyone here's a better definition of those two stats

eFG = Effective FG% - Takes into account three pointers made, ignores free throws (best & worst similar to FG%)

TS% = True Shooting Percentage Takes into account free throws and three pointers (1.3 best - .4 worst) *Courtesy of knickerblogger.net*
 

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Hbwoy said:
Here's my two cents on the whole topic. FG% can be very deceptive, because as in Vince's case 3pt shots and the amount of and 1's or in that instance the shot he threw up and missed all skew his FG%. Any good basketball statistician will tell you that TS% and eFgG% are better judges rather than FG%. (Hence why I asked for TS% this morning)

And here's what I found regarding Vince

eFG% 47.3
TS% 53.7

And so it doesnt confuse anyone here's a better definition of those two stats

eFG = Effective FG% - Takes into account three pointers made, ignores free throws (best & worst similar to FG%)

TS% = True Shooting Percentage Takes into account free throws and three pointers (1.3 best - .4 worst) *Courtesy of knickerblogger.net*
Huh? When fouled... those don't count at shots, why RJ's FG% is deceptive as well.

-Petey
 

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Carter's efficiency really doesn't matter, what matters is what type of shots he's taking. He could go 8 for 24, if 20 of those shots are good shots(not contested fadeaways early in the shotclock), then he's doing what he can do. This is going to be confusing but:

If Carter played like RJ, and RJ played like RJ, then Kidd and Krstic would get the majority of the shots, which is not good for our team.

There's a reason there is no super-efficient superstar.
 
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