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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well, since I found out I had to go to a party on Friday, I traded my Germany tickets in to go see the US play Algeria. Although you can say it is Algeria and what not, everyone looked really good, including a couple of kids on the Algerian team.

For Algeria, the Boughedir kids played really well. It seemed like whatever was going on, he was involved in it somehow. Had thier team ballhog, Benramdane, shot the ball every time he touched it, I think Boughedir could have really had an offensive attack. I'm also not sure, but that Benramdane guy shot a TON of 3 pointers. I don't know if he took any other shots, but he had to take like 10-15 3s.

Other then those two guys, everyone else out there was in awe pretty much. If the ball was across court, they were pretty much turned and starting at the action, which allowed for several easy baskets. Just not much team play here, which is ashame, because they have some talented kids.

For the US team, Jay Williams is just amazing. I think his time with George Karl has really helped his game because he seemed really under control out there, yet was still playing with reckless abandon. He is just so damn quick too. I'm exciting to get him to camp and he is no doubt going to be starting PG to open this season.

Paul Pierce is amazing. I thought about it all night on the ride home and he reminds me of how Julius Erving/George Gervin used to play. Remember how when you watched them they seemed to be moving in Sloooooooooooow Motion yet no one could stop them... well, Pierce is just like that.

It was like he was just out there by himself practicing his moves. He didn't force anything either... it was all so fluid and smooth while playing within the flow of the USA offense. I'm going on record right now to say he could average 30ppg this year easy, he seems to only get better.

Elton Brand was simply perfect. I don't believe he missed and he did a bit of everything... Shawn Marion can jump out of the gym... Michael Finley is a damn ballhog... Andre Miller runs a team well, but he still blows at shooting... Everyone else was just pretty much there and complacent.

Jermaine O'Neal has gotten bigger... as had been mentioned in a different thread. I do believe he has spent the offseason at the Pacers complex working with Al Harrington, who is a known workout freak. However, he didn't look as quick as he did last year and he seemed akward at times.

The next game I have tickets to is the USA vs China game on Saturday at 8pm. Provided everything goes okay, I'll be there and bring back my observations.
 

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I don't thin Finley was a ball hog. He may have had a couple bad shots in the first half but he had wide open looks in the second. There was mention that Karl was using Finley off the bench to be an offensive spark with his versatile scoring game. Just a thought.
 

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Retro, its good to hear from another Jay Williams "convert." I don't mean to say that you or anyone else weren't fans of his already. But you really have to see this guy play in person to appreciate what he's capable of out on the court. I seriously doubt that there are many players that possess his kind of quickness and all around athletic ability. Somehow, watching him on TV doesn't do the kid justice.

Setting aside his considerable offensive skills for a moment, isn't it nice to see that in Jay we finally have a player who can keep up with the very best PG's in the league defensively? No more madador defense...opponents are really going to have to work hard to gain any penetration in the lane. And that should help keep Tyson and Eddy out of foul trouble, too.

Offensively, his aggressive nature is probably the first thing you notice and contrasts sharply with Crawford's tendancy to run the offense exclusively from the perimeter. Williams is already adept at playing screen/roll. So I hope more time is spent by the Bulls teaching our big guys how to set proper screens because between Jay and Jalen, they could end up with alot of easy scoring opportunities just like Stockton and Malone.
 

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Frankly, I don't think that Jay played all that well. I don't think he played as well as his 11 points, 3 boards, 5 assists and 2 steals would otherwisw seem to indicate.

Those are nice numbers, put up against Africa's version of the Washington Generals. Even against this subpar competition, Jay looked and played like a rookie. He looked tentative early, making some poor pass selections (a couple of which were reckless enough to call to mind one of his namesakes) and put up a couple of wide open J's which were real clankers. The offense slowed down considerably when he first came into the game. (Yes, know there were other substitutions as well, but still, this is against Algeria).

This isn't a put down of Jay or a panic attack about his current ability or future potential. However, he often played like a rookie, making rookie mistakes. This is an excellent learning experience for him. He has pretty good poise for a rookie, and the extra experience, especially as the USA faces better teams, will give him more poise going into the season.

Jay has showed his incredible QUICKNESS, and has shown he has skills. I also think he's shown that at his current level, he's not ready to come out of the gate in November leading the Bulls offense as an immediate starter, and if he does start, he is not ready to make an immediate impact. He is an excellent draft choice, may develop into an all-star player, may be the Bull's future, bit it's going to take a little time. This summer experience is great, because it may make the NBA learning curve come about that much quicker. I hope so, because when he puts it all together,m I think he's going to be jaw-dropping fun to watch.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!

This isn't a put down of Jay or a panic attack about his current ability or future potential. However, he often played like a rookie, making rookie mistakes. This is an excellent learning experience for him. He has pretty good poise for a rookie, and the extra experience, especially as the USA faces better teams, will give him more poise going into the season.
So did Baron Davis... he looked worse then Jay out there. Does that mean Baron won't be the same dominant PG he was last year? Of course not... Andre Miller as well... I'd rather shoot a full court shot myself then let Andre Miller shoot a NBA three if a game was on the line.

I understand your concerns, but his rookie mistakes were mainly because of his ruthless agression that he plays with.. .and if he makes rookie mistakes the next 10 years by trying to make something happen, so be it.

I've watched 4 years of basketball where no one on the floor wanted to make anything happen... that has got to go and will with Jay Williams on our team.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
I don't thin Finley was a ball hog. He may have had a couple bad shots in the first half but he had wide open looks in the second. There was mention that Karl was using Finley off the bench to be an offensive spark with his versatile scoring game. Just a thought.
Even though those looks were wide open, he often had players who were open from close range. I don't know how many times I saw open cuts where he just passed on it and he hoisted up a shot.

I don't know if those were visible on TV or not.
 

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Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!




I understand your concerns, but his rookie mistakes were mainly because of his ruthless agression that he plays with.. .and if he makes rookie mistakes the next 10 years by trying to make something happen, so be it.
I am not really expressing concerns. Just observations. I LOVE his aggression and respect his skills. I think nothing but happy thoughts about this kid -- I just think he is going to need a little time to put together the total package, and point it out because I think that those folks who expect Jay to be the go-to guy from day 1 are setting themselves up for a bit of a letdown when it takes him some time to adjust to the NBA.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!


I am not really expressing concerns. Just observations. I LOVE his aggression and respect his skills. I think nothing but happy thoughts about this kid -- I just think he is going to need a little time to put together the total package, and point it out because I think that those folks who expect Jay to be the go-to guy from day 1 are setting themselves up for a bit of a letdown when it takes him some time to adjust to the NBA.
I agree on your observations but I also think he'll be a learn-on-the-fly semi-go-to-guy... hey, that rhymed, but you get what I mean.

I also don't think it is out of the question for him to average up to 18-20ppg this year either, he is just that good on breaking people down off the dribble.
 

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Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
Frankly, I don't think that Jay played all that well. I don't think he played as well as his 11 points, 3 boards, 5 assists and 2 steals would otherwisw seem to indicate.

Those are nice numbers, put up against Africa's version of the Washington Generals. Even against this subpar competition, Jay looked and played like a rookie. He looked tentative early, making some poor pass selections (a couple of which were reckless enough to call to mind one of his namesakes) and put up a couple of wide open J's which were real clankers. The offense slowed down considerably when he first came into the game. (Yes, know there were other substitutions as well, but still, this is against Algeria).
Looked and played like a rookie, you say Tom? Maybe that's because he is a rookie, and a twenty year old rookie at that! In fact, it's interesting to note that despite three years of college under his belt, he's only a little more than one year older than Tyson and Eddy.

I think alot of people have a tendancy to expect way too much out of Jay Williams at the start of the season. Skills he has, in abundance. But his pro experience is nil. Give him some time to adjust to the speed of the pro game and the length of its players. Crawford's still listed as the Bulls starting PG, and for good reason...he's entering his third NBA season. Jay's going to be a dynamite player one day. We've just got to remember that he is most definitely a rookie and will have many days when he plays like one.

Pssst...I'm still glad we drafted him though, instead of trading him for a Miller or a Davis. :grinning:
 

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Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!


I agree on your observations but I also think he'll be a learn-on-the-fly semi-go-to-guy... hey, that rhymed, but you get what I mean.

I also don't think it is out of the question for him to average up to 18-20ppg this year either, he is just that good on breaking people down off the dribble.
Odd that we have to go back and forth when we're so close to completely agreeing...but I guess that's what the Boards are all about!

10-20 ppg is certainly possible. Breaking through the learning curve THIS SEASON is possible, maybe even likely. The sooner, the better. Maybe I'm babying him with my cries for patience, but I see all too often, the fans, the media, whoever, building a Chicago guy up and then bailing on him when immediate expectations aren't met.

My greatest fear is that some goof like Jay Mariotti starts a campaign to run Jay out of town before Christmas because The Future is starting at point and the team isn't on a 70 win pace.
 

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Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!


Even though those looks were wide open, he often had players who were open from close range. I don't know how many times I saw open cuts where he just passed on it and he hoisted up a shot.

I don't know if those were visible on TV or not.
They could have pounded it down low all night if that was the objective. No way Algeria can stop us if we put everything in the post. He took wide open shots, and he can make them. This is a philosophical point where there is no wrong or right answer, but Finley has to take and make those shots because it makes the defense respect that aspect of the USA team. For most of the guys at Finley's level that is a shot, they should take when they are open in a competitive NBA game. He has to do it on this team as well, and the bigs can rebound. There will be times when it is more prudent to pound it, but especially against Algeria, I thought the team on the whole did a good job of balancing penetrating, shooting, and playing the post.
 

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Originally posted by <b>DickieHurtz</b>!


Looked and played like a rookie, you say Tom? Maybe that's because he is a rookie, and a twenty year old rookie at that! In fact, it's interesting to note that despite three years of college under his belt, he's only a little more than one year older than Tyson and Eddy.

I think alot of people have a tendancy to expect way too much out of Jay Williams at the start of the season. Skills he has, in abundance. But his pro experience is nil. Give him some time to adjust to the speed of the pro game and the length of its players. Crawford's still listed as the Bulls starting PG, and for good reason...he's entering his third NBA season. Jay's going to be a dynamite player one day. We've just got to remember that he is most definitely a rookie and will have many days when he plays like one.

Pssst...I'm still glad we drafted him though, instead of trading him for a Miller or a Davis. :grinning:
Dickie, if you read my posts(and in particular the last two paragraphs of the post you quoted from, which say about the same thing you state in your response to me), I think you'll find that we are in agreement. I know he's a rookie. I AM giving him time. I'm just pointing out that Jay isn't 100% of what we hope he will be...yet. (adopt Stuart Smalley "Daily Affirmations" voice):

"And that's...o.k. Because he's good enough, he's smart enough and doggone it, people like him."

It's all good!:yes: GO BULLS!:D
 

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good thread guys. As i said on another thread, i loved the way he took it to the hole time and time again. He isn't afraid to mix it up with the tall trees. driving to the basket or ending up near the basket, will give other players easy baskets. Makes you wonder if Crawford is a SG trying to play point? Jays game is so different than Crawford. Jay did force things a couple of times. Did step out of bounds once. His defense looked ok to me but once again look who he was playing too. As Miller gets healthy his minutes might drop.

Brand did anything he wanted. Looked great.

Pierce and Marion were good!!

But we will see how they do tonight against a better team.
 

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I want to make a comment on another section of Retro's post.

PAUL PIERCE!!!!!!!!

It dosen't matter who he was playing against. He was so smooth and deceptively fast. The more I see his game the more I get a kick out of the way he writhes through the lane. I have only seen DR J. and Gervin on classic sports, but how about a comparison to other Celtic Larry Bird. You don't realize he's ripping your heart out till after he's done... Appears smooth large and slow till hes blown by you... killer outside shot... they're different off the dribble and in many other aspects of their game but the kinda bring the same vibe to the floor. Its really something to stand out like that on a team of all-stars.
 

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Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
I want to make a comment on another section of Retro's post.

PAUL PIERCE!!!!!!!!

It dosen't matter who he was playing against. He was so smooth and deceptively fast. The more I see his game the more I get a kick out of the way he writhes through the lane. I have only seen DR J. and Gervin on classic sports, but how about a comparison to other Celtic Larry Bird. You don't realize he's ripping your heart out till after he's done... Appears smooth large and slow till hes blown by you... killer outside shot... they're different off the dribble and in many other aspects of their game but the kinda bring the same vibe to the floor. Its really something to stand out like that on a team of all-stars.
Agreed 100% Paul Pierce was amazing to watch last night. Incredible. All Star. Wow. He and Brand just stole the show. Now I'm just counting the hours until I can see the USA/Germany game!!! More! More! More! Gimme Jay! Gimme Paul! Gimme Elton! Basketball is back!
 

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Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
Frankly, I don't think that Jay played all that well. I don't think he played as well as his 11 points, 3 boards, 5 assists and 2 steals would otherwisw seem to indicate.

Those are nice numbers, put up against Africa's version of the Washington Generals. Even against this subpar competition, Jay looked and played like a rookie. He looked tentative early, making some poor pass selections (a couple of which were reckless enough to call to mind one of his namesakes) and put up a couple of wide open J's which were real clankers. The offense slowed down considerably when he first came into the game. (Yes, know there were other substitutions as well, but still, this is against Algeria).

This isn't a put down of Jay or a panic attack about his current ability or future potential. However, he often played like a rookie, making rookie mistakes. This is an excellent learning experience for him. He has pretty good poise for a rookie, and the extra experience, especially as the USA faces better teams, will give him more poise going into the season.

Jay has showed his incredible QUICKNESS, and has shown he has skills. I also think he's shown that at his current level, he's not ready to come out of the gate in November leading the Bulls offense as an immediate starter, and if he does start, he is not ready to make an immediate impact. He is an excellent draft choice, may develop into an all-star player, may be the Bull's future, bit it's going to take a little time. This summer experience is great, because it may make the NBA learning curve come about that much quicker. I hope so, because when he puts it all together,m I think he's going to be jaw-dropping fun to watch.
I guess that I have to agree with Retro on this one. If you are going to use this game as evidence that "Jay looked and played like a rookie," then I guess that Davis and Miller aren't too far off from looking like rookies either.

This is only one game, but if this game was the only thing I knew about JWill, Davis, and Miller, I would have to say that Jay was every bit as good as Davis and Miller.

On our imfamous Jammer Index, here are the scores.

Baron Davis 11.5
Jay Williams 10.5
Andre Miller 6

Other players:

Elton Brand 20.5
Paul Pierce 17.5
Michael Finley 13
Raef LaFrentz 12
Shawn Marion 10
Ben Wallace 6.5
Jermaine O'Neal 3.5
Antonio Davis 1.5
 

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Now, take my criticism of Jay in the context I placed it. Stats aside, Jay looked green to me, even compared to Davis, etc. despite what the stats sheets showed.

I LIKE Jay! Jay is going to be great. But with all the hype, I guess in the back of my mind I was hoping to see him come in, be an all-star and dominate. He didn't. Yes its only one game. Yes there were proven guys who didn't shine either. What I saw is a skilled, blazingly fast player who still needs a little bit of time before he's the go-to guy on an NBA team, even the recently weak Bulls. What I saw in Davis and Miller that I didn't see in Jay was a little better decision-making, and a little more control. That doesn't show up on Jammer. I like Jay's aggressive demeanor. He's going to get there, but I rest on my argument that he needs to make some adjustments before we can be so bold as to reserve the Grant Park bandshell.
 

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A different perspective

What some of you may see as Jay's greenness and how he stacks to Dre and Baron - and how Dre and Baron may have appeared on par.....

Remember that is difficult to build instant chemistry and wave the wand and have any Team USA ( team of allstars or future allstars) playing in a super cohesive manner

If Jay looked tentative here and rusty in the RMR its because he has no familarity/ no context with his teammates . Until he can absorb these dynamics and build a context he is going to look even better and I guarantee his teammates will too

If Dre looked like crap when they gave up the outside shot to him its because his options were shot down and his shot within what the defense was giving him was probably the best option. This is probably good scouting from the opposition and good execution in defense as Dre is not the best option to be taking jumper after jumper .... maybe the FinDogs and the Pierces have to move better without the ball and the Wallaces and Davis's have to set better picks to help him out a bit more - because in a well drilled NBA team , Dre would be used to such "extras" that would bail him out more

I watched Team USA up close and personal on the Goodwill Games tour last year and whilst you can marvel at these guys individual skills, when you put a team of champions together to meld a champion team - its not necessarily an ACME kit where you just need to add water and hey presto

These guys are all main men and main men need role men on a play by play basis in a disciplined well oiled machine to be effective

I remember when Baron was drafted there were big expectations - maybe not to the same degree of hoopla that has accompanied Jay - but the Hornets took it easy with him in the 1st year as they were an OK franchise and there was not the same degree of thirst for a saviour from a rabid basketball loving public. I also recall however where there was mild disappointment in him but nothing major. Then came his 2nd year and he started kicking some serious a$$. Super quick , strong as an OX who takes it in without fear in traffic and finish - but who has a streaky J

Franchise was a bit all over the place in his first year with Dream and Chuck and his jelly crystals were not quite set but you could see what was there

And for some - its not a quantum leap from college to the NBA in skills and abilities - its more about tempering the natural compulsions of youthful exuberance to make a splash and prove yourself before you have built context with coaching objectives and dynamics with teammates.

Like Franchise and to a lesser degree, Davis , when he first came in , Jay is in this "some" grouping.

At best he will have a rookie campaign like Franchise and at worst a rookie campaign like Davis.

Considering the consistent level to where they got to in their 2nd and 3rd years this does not bother me one bit

The only thing that does bother me as Tom "Rocky" Boerwinkle pointed out is that we do not have the same temperance in our Dickensian "Great Expectations" that we have of Jay as say the Hornets may have had with Baron. We have sucked for so long we need someone to come out and whoop some a$$ straight away

It is this factor , I think , that is going to put Jay under more pressure early . But this is mitigated by the fact that this fella just chews this type of thing up and comes looking for more

So again to refer to Tom B it's all good
 

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I really enjoyed Jay's "no hesitation" style of play. Do you remember when the pesky Algerian point decided to pressure the ball almost to half court? Baron kept trying to get into a change-of-pace rocking rhythm to set up a move. The guy stayed tight on him, and kept disrupting Baron's rhythm. Davis must have wasted 6 seconds on 2-3 possessions in a row monkeying around way outside the 3pt line.

When the guy got up on Williams, Jay just went straight past him to the lane. Nothing fancy, no shot-clock wasted, just direct action. I really look forward to seeing that in place for the Bulls after years of pointless dribbling by the likes of Drew, Ollie, Crawford.
 
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