Professional and College Basketball Forums banner
1 - 20 of 516 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,535 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
CBS Sports -- ORU to forfeit games

In a nutshell, D1 teams are limited to no more than 4 games against non-D1 competition, including exhibitions and scrimmages.

Oral Roberts played 2 regular season non-D1 games along with 2 non-D1 scrimmages. Problem is, their conference schedule includes games against Incarnate Word and Abilene Christian which are transitional teams that also count as non-D1.

I think Vermont is in the same situation, having played exhibitions / scrimmages against St. Michaels and Concordia along with the Lyndon State and Sonoma State non D1 games, but now having 2 upcoming games against UMass-Lowell.

Or am I interpreting this incorrectly?

Edit -- Actually, Vermont may even be worse off than ORU. I did not realize that they had already played UMass-Lowell once. So they've already gone over the limit.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
33,794 Posts
Why would the NCAA count a transitional D1 team as a non-D1 team? I mean, it's now in your conference and a conference opponent. I haven't clicked on the link yet (will do so), but that can't be right. Doesn't make any sense.

That being said, I'd be happy to see any non-D1 game forfeited as a preventative measure and lessons learned for ever scheduling those games during the regular season again :)

Edit: Just read the losses will be for conference games- how would that work?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
33,794 Posts
CBS Sports -- ORU to forfeit games

In a nutshell, D1 teams are limited to no more than 4 games against non-D1 competition, including exhibitions and scrimmages.

Oral Roberts played 2 regular season non-D1 games along with 2 non-D1 scrimmages. Problem is, their conference schedule includes games against Incarnate Word and Abilene Christian which are transitional teams that also count as non-D1.

I think Vermont is in the same situation, having played exhibitions / scrimmages against St. Michaels and Concordia along with the Lyndon State and Sonoma State non D1 games, but now having 2 upcoming games against UMass-Lowell.

Or am I interpreting this incorrectly?

Edit -- Actually, Vermont may even be worse off than ORU. I did not realize that they had already played UMass-Lowell once. So they've already gone over the limit.
You're interpreting correct but while the author states the NCAA bylaw that teams can only play max 4 non-D1 schools, he doesn't give any clear description of the NCAA definition of a transitional D1 team not being fully D1....so there appears to be some details lacking.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
33,794 Posts
What's interesting to me is that Oral Roberts is on its way out of their conference....so would this be something the commissioner would even enforce?

If UMass-Lowell does indeed still count as a non-D1 opponent, which makes zero sense, did the conference notify its members that would be the case? I mean, they are transitional for 4 years. That's a long-time. Feel like that is something in practice that the league would need to be responsible for doing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,222 Posts
Wow, that's really interesting. It does appear as though that could be an issue for Vermont...holy crap. I have never heard of this rule before.

Lowell doesn't appear in the NCAA stats either, which would indicate they aren't considered Division I as of yet.

Does this impact anyone else? Thank god Maine's game vs Maine-Presque Isle got cancelled as that may save them. I have to check...

**Edit - Maine played 2 exhibitions (McGill & Laval), played Fisher...with 2 games vs Lowell it looks like Maine would be a game over. Wow, this is crazy. My guess is the conference has/had no idea about this rule...nor did any coach.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,535 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
What's interesting to me is that Oral Roberts is on its way out of their conference....so would this be something the commissioner would even enforce?

If UMass-Lowell does indeed still count as a non-D1 opponent, which makes zero sense, did the conference notify its members that would be the case? I mean, they are transitional for 4 years. That's a long-time. Feel like that is something in practice that the league would need to be responsible for doing.
It's strange. It is an NCAA rule, so it is for the NCAA to enforce. In the case of ORU, because they haven't yet gone over the limit they were able to work out an agreement by which they forfeit the conference games and never actually violate the NCAA rule.

Vermont is potentially in a stickier situation, as they have already played 5 non-D1 games (under this interpretation) -- so they have already violated the rule so the AE can't really help bail them out.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,923 Posts
The article says the revision was on 3/01/12. I have a copy of an old Division I manual. The old rule, which was Bylaw 20.9.6.1 didn't include the phrase "including any contest (e.g., scrimmage, exhibition), "

Also
20.9.6.4.1.1 Reclassifying Opponents. A reclassifying institution shall be counted as a Division I opponent in the year the reclassifying institution must comply with Division I scheduling requirements (year two of the reclassifying process). (Adopted: 4/15/97, Revised: 4/24/03 effective 8/1/03)
20.9.6.4.1.2 Waiver. The Administration Cabinet, by a two-thirds majority of its members present and voting, may grant a waiver of the provisions of Bylaw 20.9.6.4.1 in cases of reclassification of an opponent when there is an enforceable game contract, executed in writing, or in the case of similar contractual problems. (Revised: 11/1/07 effective 8/1/08)

I suppose UVM could also apply for the waiver of the Sonoma State game, since that was out of your control.

http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D112.pdf
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,535 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Wow, that's really interesting. It does appear as though that could be an issue for Vermont...holy crap. I have never heard of this rule before.

Lowell doesn't appear in the NCAA stats either, which would indicate they aren't considered Division I as of yet.

Does this impact anyone else? Thank god Maine's game vs Maine-Presque Isle got cancelled as that may save them. I have to check...

**Edit - Maine played 2 exhibitions (McGill & Laval), played Fisher...with 2 games vs Lowell it looks like Maine would be a game over. Wow, this is crazy. My guess is the conference has/had no idea about this rule...nor did any coach.
There could be other AE teams, I guess, as well. In the case of the Southland, it looks like the new teams were only playing each conference member once. Lowell is playing everyone twice.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,510 Posts
Hmmmmm Hartford might end up getting the NCAA bid this year due to everyone else getting disqualified. I kid. Not sure how this plays pt but I think it is time for the conference AD's to get together and put and end to scheduling any non D1 opponents. Who needs this headache.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,796 Posts
well it looks like whoever did the Vermont schedule is in a little bit of a pickle right now. They should have known the rules before scheduling the other non D-1's after they knew they had 2 against lowell. SBU is at 3 i believe maybe 4 if they had a private scrimmage.

What makes no sense to me is who cares about exhibition or scrimmages. i get you do not want actual games being played against non D1's but who really cares about who you practice against?

That being said if vermont has two losses to start the conference slatey i will take it. that will certainly help us and other teams quest for regular season conference champ.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,222 Posts
The article says the revision was on 3/01/12. I have a copy of an old Division I manual. The old rule, which was Bylaw 20.9.6.1 didn't include the phrase "including any contest (e.g., scrimmage, exhibition), "

Also
20.9.6.4.1.1 Reclassifying Opponents. A reclassifying institution shall be counted as a Division I opponent in the year the reclassifying institution must comply with Division I scheduling requirements (year two of the reclassifying process). (Adopted: 4/15/97, Revised: 4/24/03 effective 8/1/03)
20.9.6.4.1.2 Waiver. The Administration Cabinet, by a two-thirds majority of its members present and voting, may grant a waiver of the provisions of Bylaw 20.9.6.4.1 in cases of reclassification of an opponent when there is an enforceable game contract, executed in writing, or in the case of similar contractual problems. (Revised: 11/1/07 effective 8/1/08)

I suppose UVM could also apply for the waiver of the Sonoma State game, since that was out of your control.

http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D112.pdf
So basically this only applies to the first year of a re-classifying school if I read that correctly.

For UVM, applying for a waiver for Sonoma State would help if successful but would still leave them one game over as well.

This really is quite a dilemma for the conference and those teams that did schedule 2 exhibitions and then even a single game vs non-Division I teams during the regular season.

I may have to contact some buddies and see if they are aware of this...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,796 Posts
This is pretty big news considering vermont was picked to finish 1st in conference. Giving Albany and SBU(my opinion on the next best two) a two game lead certainly hurts. This in effect really helps SBU. One thing as an SBU fan i do not want SBU playing albany in albany during the tournement. This in my opinion basically makes Albany a 1 or a 2 seed and barring injury i do not see SBU finishing 4th keeping them out of albany's side of the bracket. This could be a be careful what you wish for moment but who knows...

How could UVM get out with a waiver? unless sonoma state was put in after they signed a contract for the golden gate challenge.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,902 Posts
I read it like you forfeit the games AFTER you hit the four max. UVM played Lyndon State after it played UML the first time, so the Lyndon State game would be a forfeit not that first UML game.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
648 Posts
Wouldn't it be up to the AE, not the NCAA, to use their discretion as to what applies to an in-conference win/loss? Can't they decide to count/negate the UML results, thus not impacting the conference seeding because of a small by-law?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,796 Posts
I do not know how the AE would be able to make that decison and be able to sleep at night... UVM's mistake has big implications on other teams...


so it looks like UVM will have to forfeit only the one uml game.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,989 Posts
CBS Sports -- ORU to forfeit games

In a nutshell, D1 teams are limited to no more than 4 games against non-D1 competition, including exhibitions and scrimmages.

Oral Roberts played 2 regular season non-D1 games along with 2 non-D1 scrimmages. Problem is, their conference schedule includes games against Incarnate Word and Abilene Christian which are transitional teams that also count as non-D1.

I think Vermont is in the same situation, having played exhibitions / scrimmages against St. Michaels and Concordia along with the Lyndon State and Sonoma State non D1 games, but now having 2 upcoming games against UMass-Lowell.

Or am I interpreting this incorrectly?

Edit -- Actually, Vermont may even be worse off than ORU. I did not realize that they had already played UMass-Lowell once. So they've already gone over the limit.
The tournament in San Francisco where we played Sonoma State was an exempt tournament, so does that game count (against us)?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,554 Posts
Has anyone contacted Vermont, the AE office, or the NCAA about this yet? Because we know does not mean anyone else knows. Sam we need you.
 
1 - 20 of 516 Posts
Top