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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Numbers don't lie.

Let's take a look at the material the legendary Coach K, already an enshrined Hall of Famer, had on hand Thursday night.

In addition to Redick, he had five other former McDonald's all-Americans, primo recruits any team in the country would love to have had.

There was Josh McRoberts, the McDonald's high school Player of the Year in 2005. There was Greg Paulus, honored by Gatorade as the national Athlete of the Year in 2005 because he also was highly-recruited as a quarterback. Sophomore DeMarcus Nelson is the all-time leading scorer in California high school history. Sean Dockery and Eric Boateng also were McDonald's all-Americans.

In addition, the Dookies could call on freshman Jamal Boykin, who was the Gatorade Player of the Year last season in California, and senior center Shelden Williams, who twice was Gatorade Player of the Year in Oklahoma as a schoolboy.

Against that array of top-notch talent from all across the country, LSU had three kids from Baton Rouge -- sophomore Glen Davis, redshirt freshman Tyrus Thomas, and Temple, who tenaciously followed Redick wherever he went.

Duke had all that talent, and Krzyzewski has all those Coach of the Year awards, and yet the Blue Devils were stymied and flummoxed, left frustrated and clueless -- how'd you like it when Davis, after missing a foul shot late in the game, was able to grab the rebound, even though there were four Dookies in the lane, and he was the only LSU player on that side of midcourt? -- by the Bayou Bengals.

This will be heresy to some, and lunacy to others, but it could it possibly be that Coach K is getting by on his reputation?

Yes, he's won three NCAA championships, but just one in the last 14 years -- an inability to finish that might have gotten the legendary John Wooten fired at UCLA.

Another indication of a coach's prowess is how his protégés are doing. Consider the following disciples of Coach K: Tommy Amaker has been unable to restore Michigan to hoops glory. Or even the NCAA tournament. At Notre Dame, Mike Brey is looking more and more like Ty Willingham, a nice man who can't get the job done. Dave Henderson just got fired at Delaware -- Delaware? -- with two years remaining on his contract after his third straight losing season. And Quinn Snyder was fired at Missouri amidst questions of unethical activities.
http://www.projo.com/sports/jimdonaldson/projo_20060325_25jdcol.6c80cf0.html

Man, this guys family is going to have to go into hiding.
 

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GB said:
Numbers don't lie.

Man, this guys family is going to have to go into hiding.
This article fails to mention that Duke was the best team in the country all year. Not being able to win 6 in a row isn't the worst thing that can happen to a coach. In a seven game series Duke wouldn't lose to LSU but thats the tournament, and the best team rarley wins it all.
 

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The juxtaposition of this thread with the "when did the (30-38) Bulls shed their losing culture" one is simply priceless.
 

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Hustle said:
This article fails to mention that Duke was the best team in the country all year. Not being able to win 6 in a row isn't the worst thing that can happen to a coach. In a seven game series Duke wouldn't lose to LSU but thats the tournament, and the best team rarley wins it all.
Duke wasn't the best team all year. They simply got the Duke media and official treatment.

People need to face reality on coach K. He took advantage of opportunity. He couldn't get the best players at Duke. So while other teams were getting far better players who were leaving earlier and earlier, what did he do? He simply got the best players who stayed in school the longest. Even when you count from Brand leaving early until now, no top program has had starters average anywhere close to the number of years in school that Duke has. And think about when Brand left early. That was 1998 and probably the first time Coach K lost a major contributor to significantly early entry into the pros. People can say what they want about Coach K, but if all players at all schools had stayed four years since he took over at Duke Coach K would be considered to be about as good as Bruce Weber. He can coach. I'm not saying the guy sucks. But if UNC kept their players as long as Duke they'd kill Carolina every year. If Wallace and Stackhouse stayed until their senior year for example, they'd have been on the team with Carter and Jamison. In the meantime, at the same time, Coach K kept all of the players who started for Duke in Wallace and Stackhouse's sophomore year for four years.

Comparing Coach K to a Wooden or Smith to me is heresy. Coach Wooden won when you had to get the BEST players to win titles. There was no leaving early then. Give Coach Smith the same number of average years staying in school by his starters that Coach K has had and he'd have 9 national championships. Jordan's senior year I believe Kenny Smith would have been a sophomore and they would have walked to the title.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
ScottMay said:
The juxtaposition of this thread with the "when did the (30-38) Bulls shed their losing culture" one is simply priceless.
Only if you don't understand the thread, the topic, or culture itself.

Why not keep it about basketball and/or saying nothing at all, if, as demonstrated above, you have nothing of substance to say?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Darius Miles Davis said:
The auther of this article couldn't even spell John Wooden's name right. Yeesh.
Lets discuss his argument, not undercut it through misdirection (and spelling responsabilities belong to the editor and his staff...not to the writer.).

And you said "auther". :laugh:


;)
 

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GB said:
Lets discuss his argument, not undercut it through misdirection (and spelling responsabilities belong to the editor and his staff...not to the writer.).

And you said "auther". :laugh:


;)
Damn, that is pretty funny! :cheers:

And no, I'm not particularly interested in the argument one way or another.

edit: I don't know how you can't consider Coach K one of the best coaches. Lately, however, he hasn't been the best coach. Calhoun has taken the helm with his recent results.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
edit: I don't know how you can't consider Coach K one of the best coaches. Lately, however, he hasn't been the best coach. Calhoun has taken the helm with his recent results.
Ok. I'll give you that...one of the best. Measured by...recruiting? Regular season record?

But what about the big game results? How does it figure into the equation?
 

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GB said:
Ok. I'll give you that...one of the best. Measured by...recruiting? Regular season record?

But what about the big game results? How does it figure into the equation?
Coach K and Duke won the championship in 2002. That's not that long ago.

This isn't the age of UCLA/Wooden (with a "d"). I don't expect any team to win it every year or every other year.

Considering recruiting, regular season success, playoff success, success of players in the pros (Brand, Maggette, Boozer, Deng, Hill, Laetner, Battier), he's got to be considered among the greatest college coaches of his generation.

Pitino, Calipari, Calhoun, and Roy Williams are also great coaches, on par with Coach K. I'm sure I've forgotten some others.
 

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Darius Miles Davis said:
Pitino, Calipari, Calhoun, and Roy Williams are also great coaches, on par with Coach K. I'm sure I've forgotten some others.
I was going to add Izzo but after reading the article one loss can condemn you and MSU had alot of losses this season and they might have 3 1st round picks in this year's draft.
 

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L.O.B said:
I was going to add Izzo but after reading the article one loss can condemn you and MSU had alot of losses this season and they might have 3 1st round picks in this year's draft.
I would add Izzo to the list of top tier coaches despite the disappointing year.
 

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Pippenatorade said:
Comparing Coach K to a Wooden or Smith to me is heresy. Coach Wooden won when you had to get the BEST players to win titles. There was no leaving early then. Give Coach Smith the same number of average years staying in school by his starters that Coach K has had and he'd have 9 national championships. Jordan's senior year I believe Kenny Smith would have been a sophomore and they would have walked to the title.
I have to disagree with you on some major points here, Pip. You can't knock Coach K for failing to win the big one so many times and give Dean Smith a free pass for the exact same thing. He didn't win a title in his first twenty-one seasons at Carolina, and early defections had nothing to do with that. I do agree that his teams suffered disproportionately from early exits, but I can't automatically assume that he would have won *that* many more titles if all his guys stayed until they were seniors. Or if you believe in your own logic, don't you think Brand + Maggette for 2 years would have meant a title? Deng and Shaun Livingston last year and this year? etc.

I couldn't have more respect for John Wooden. As a player (he's in the Hall as both player and coach), he was one of a handful of early guys who really helped popularize the sport nationwide, and more than anyone, he planted the seed that made Indiana such a basketball-crazed state. As a coach, he was like Babe Ruth in relation to his contemporaries, on a completely different level.

However, I can't overlook the skeleton in the closet that is Sam Gilbert. It's impossible for me to believe that Wooden didn't know what was going on, and it pretty much taints his accomplishments as a program builder imo.

I am not at all a Coach K fan. The thing I hate most about the mythology he's created for himself is that the Duke program was like Prairie View A&M when he signed on. In reality, Bill Foster left him a decent foundation -- they made the Final Four in 1978, for God's sake. He's sanctimonious, self-serving, bullying, and arrogant. But I can't argue with what he's accomplished, even though there are probably dozens of better game coaches and even though he probably should have won an extra title or three given the talent pipeline. His recruiting powers are mind-boggling. His players go to class and graduate and are good ambassadors for the university (maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I value this in a college coach).

And the reason I found the notion of this thread utterly ridiculous when compared to the "PaxSkiles are winners in all areas but the win-loss record" one is that Coach K is probably the ultimate expression of the PaxSkiles school of thought. Coach K unfailingly gets highly talented guys to "buy in" to his system, often to the detriment of their development as individual players.
 

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ScottMay said:
I have to disagree with you on some major points here, Pip. You can't knock Coach K for failing to win the big one so many times and give Dean Smith a free pass for the exact same thing. He didn't win a title in his first twenty-one seasons at Carolina, and early defections had nothing to do with that. I do agree that his teams suffered disproportionately from early exits, but I can't automatically assume that he would have won *that* many more titles if all his guys stayed until they were seniors. Or if you believe in your own logic, don't you think Brand + Maggette for 2 years would have meant a title? Deng and Shaun Livingston last year and this year? etc.

I couldn't have more respect for John Wooden. As a player (he's in the Hall as both player and coach), he was one of a handful of early guys who really helped popularize the sport nationwide, and more than anyone, he planted the seed that made Indiana such a basketball-crazed state. As a coach, he was like Babe Ruth in relation to his contemporaries, on a completely different level.

However, I can't overlook the skeleton in the closet that is Sam Gilbert. It's impossible for me to believe that Wooden didn't know what was going on, and it pretty much taints his accomplishments as a program builder imo.

I am not at all a Coach K fan. The thing I hate most about the mythology he's created for himself is that the Duke program was like Prairie View A&M when he signed on. In reality, Bill Foster left him a decent foundation -- they made the Final Four in 1978, for God's sake. He's sanctimonious, self-serving, bullying, and arrogant. But I can't argue with what he's accomplished, even though there are probably dozens of better game coaches and even though he probably should have won an extra title or three given the talent pipeline. His recruiting powers are mind-boggling. His players go to class and graduate and are good ambassadors for the university (maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I value this in a college coach).

And the reason I found the notion of this thread utterly ridiculous when compared to the "PaxSkiles are winners in all areas but the win-loss record" one is that Coach K is probably the ultimate expression of the PaxSkiles school of thought. Coach K unfailingly gets highly talented guys to "buy in" to his system, often to the detriment of their development as individual players.
I know man. I just hate coach K lol.
 

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GB said:
You show your best stuff in March, not in January.

There are great regular season NBA teams too.
So if in the NBA Playoffs the better team didn't sweep the lesser team, they suck? Because that's only 4 games, tourney is 5. Duke had won their previous five games, and lost to a team that will be a favorite in their Final Four game and very possibly the championship game. Duke broke the record for most consecutive ACC tournament championship wins before the big toourney began. That says a lot considering the conference, as does expecting a coach to have to win a championship to be considered to be a good coach.

The regular season is very telling in who is sucessful in the playoffs. Even if the records are not the best indication, everyone can tell who the good teams are(ex. 4rth seed Lakers). This year the best five teams do have the top five records.
 

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GB said:
Lets discuss his argument, not undercut it through misdirection (and spelling responsabilities belong to the editor and his staff...not to the writer.).

And you said "auther". :laugh:

;)
Since we're teaching spelling, there's no A in responsibilities (two posts in one thread complaining about misspellings that actually contain misspellings: priceless).

There's also no A in irony...

Ahem.
 

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PC Load Letter said:
Since we're teaching spelling, there's no A in responsibilities (two posts in one thread complaining about misspellings that actually contain misspellings: priceless).

There's also no A in irony...

Ahem.
Man, I is a graduate student, man!

In all seriousness, I don't know if I've ever seen such a legendary sports figure's name misspelled in an article. Obviously, though, I'm no walking spell-check.
 
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